I finished RTK1, and want to start core2k. I got everything from here as suggested from Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners and have created an Anki deck.

However, I'm finding it really hard going. Very few of the words seem to stick, and I'm not sure of the best way to use the information.

What card layouts people have found useful for core? Should I be using it as a vocab deck, a sentence deck, or both? Is there something else I should be trying first?

You could try doing it on smartfm,thats how i do it.I've never really bothered using Anki.

If you have no prior experience with Japanese grammar or vocabulary, then it might be best to buy an elementary Japanese textbook, such as Genki, and work through it. Then you'll have covered all the grammar and a lot of the basic vocabulary, and will be able to work through vocabulary lists more easily, as you'll understand all the grammar being used in example sentences, and a lot of the vocab itself will be reinforcing what you already learned.

I have been thinking about doing Tae Kim's grammar guide, and then going trying core again...

I think KO2000 should be the first try. It's more structured. Then start Core 2k but with ordered kanji. This was also suggested by Nukemarin if I'm not mistaken.

KO2000's sentences contain too much new grammar and vocabulary for a complete bigger, from what I remember from looking over it.

First thing you need to do is get basic Japanese sentence structure and grammar under your belt. Tae Kim is certainly better than nothing, but in my opinion isn't all that good. You're much better off with a well-written textbook than internet guides, and if money is an issue most Japanese textbooks can be found online for the Pirate-inclined.

Right, that was sort of my problem as well. I heard a guy yelling KO2001 Anki deck helped him a real bunch on his way up mastering the language (kanjis, readings and so on) and he advised me doing so. On the other hand there was the core2k deck and after that the "extension" 6k, preparing for the JLPTs 1 and 2 (vocabulary naturally, not grammar).

I'm pretty done with Genki 1 by now and just learn the vocabulary (tagged.. Just use the Japanese corePLUS Anki file, download it, export which deck you like and chose tag JLPTx, whereas x is your desired level and go for it! Daily I add like 20 new kanji and on weekends - as i'm free of exams now - like 450 at once, for Saturday and sunday, keeping them reviewing like 4 hours a day.)

After accomplishing Genki 2 grammatically I will go for "An Approach to Intermediate Japanese" by TheJapanTimes (aka Genki 3).

On the way RtK2 seems to be THE system per se, i was looking for. I recommend you, Korvar, trying it. Really. You get a bunch of readings into your head, even if stuff like 補助金 or 排水溝 will rarely appear in any textbook for beginners.

@Aijin -- What do you think is better? Going through KO2001 or through core2k and then right away 6k? What do you mean by "to sort" the core deck? I've come across something like kore, although its purpose seems still so vague to me.

After RTK1, I spent a bit of time on the free 30-day trial at Japanesepod101. (Mainly going through the line-by-line dialog pages without trying to remember anything.)

After that, Kore in the 2001KO order was still too hard. The kanji sorting doesn't help with all those kana words at the beginning. I did 150 sentences using a vocab sort as I described here:
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid111515

Now, sometimes I select sentences to add using the 2001KO order, and sometimes I select them based on vocab overlap with other material I am studying.

At the start, sentence cards where I tested the whole sentence were far easier than vocab-only cards. They are still a little easier. I add a block of 30-100 sentences and then add the corresponding vocab cards afterwards. (I decided not to do vocab-test cards with sentence on the front, for various reasons. If a particular vocab card is too vague or annoying, I get rid of it.)

I tried Core for a while but gave up because my Japanese friend was looking at the sentences and, well... they just seemed silly to him.

Aijin Wrote:If you have no prior experience with Japanese grammar or vocabulary, then it might be best to buy an elementary Japanese textbook, such as Genki, and work through it. Then you'll have covered all the grammar and a lot of the basic vocabulary, and will be able to work through vocabulary lists more easily, as you'll understand all the grammar being used in example sentences, and a lot of the vocab itself will be reinforcing what you already learned.

I mostly agree, but personally I did the first 400 or so words in Nuke's Core deck as word-only vocab. After that I started going through a textbook to learn grammar, which I think went a lot more smoothly due to that foundation of vocab. YMMV.

overture2112 Wrote:I mostly agree, but personally I did the first 400 or so words in Nuke's Core deck as word-only vocab. After that I started going through a textbook to learn grammar, which I think went a lot more smoothly due to that foundation of vocab. YMMV.

Beginner textbooks will only use vocabulary that has been introduced in the lessons, so prior knowledge of vocabulary shouldn't be necessary. Some people do great using vocab lists in isolation, while others do better combining vocabulary with grammar, people should of course do whatever they find works best for them

Tori-kun Wrote:@Aijin -- What do you think is better? Going through KO2001 or through core2k and then right away 6k? What do you mean by "to sort" the core deck? I've come across something like kore, although its purpose seems still so vague to me.

Bear in mind that my suggestions aren't the norm for this forum, but I don't really think the core series is worth it for a beginner. A lot of the vocabulary is geared towards business-minded people, and not worth learning immediately for students.

I think KO2001 is a great resource, but I see it more as a supplement to other studies than something to focus entirely on and finish from top to bottom.

My language-learning suggestions in simplest terms:
Beginners
- Genki I
- Genki II

Intermediate
- "An Approach to Intermediate Japanese," or "Tobira"
- Daily reading (easier manga, children books, and other simple media)
- Daily listening (songs, simple media like Doraemon and Disney movies)
- Daily writing (e-mails, online chats, short essays, simple fiction)
- Daily speaking (monologues, speeches, basic conversations with natives)

And of course whatever supplements one enjoys.

I think the bottom line is that if material is too difficult for one to enjoy, then they shouldn't be touching it. Shelf it until you're ready. Gradual progress with material that you can comprehend is the best way to advance.
If you understand something effortlessly and completely, then it's too easy and it's time to step it up a notch. Likewise, if you're struggling to comprehend something, it's too difficult and it's time to step down a notch. For example: if you're watching an anime and can't understand all the dialogue, but can follow enough of it to understand the character interactions and plot, then that's a fine level for you. But if you're trying to read a novel, and can't follow the plot without consulting a dictionary every page, it's time to pick something easier for now.

And there's such a massive amount of both native materials as well as learning resources for every level, that there should never be a need to try and break your back with too difficult of material.

I'm doing Core2000 on SmartFM just to vary my experience, and also since they are common words I would like to know them. But I find it quite hard, and I think the main reason is that I don't have much interest in some of these political words and so on. I would like to be able to read an article that uses them, but on the whole I'm not that likely to want to do it.

I will continue doing it though - it's got audio, it's a little bit of experience, even though it's not very "real".

I think Aijin has a lot of experience of what's successful with learners, so I'm not going to say anything to contradict that.

What you will learn best is probably related to what excites you. With the Core I feel like I'm forcing myself to learn. I have more fun with sentences from things I actually like, and I remember the vocab. better. But I think it all adds up in the end, and now I know that 対立　たいりつ means opposition or antagonism, and so on, so I'm happy with that.

I will remember it, but I have a more vivid memory of something Nodame said, of something at the beginning of a book (I only know the beginnings of books ), or a poem or something somebody actually said in real life.

If it's vivid you'll remember it.

To elaborate on my post slightly: The reason I suggest mostly sticking to textbooks for beginners is because it offers a solid foundation in the language, with material that perfectly matches the grammar and vocab one learns. It gets a student used to speaking, listening, reading, and writing at their level. Native materials are fine as supplements for beginners if they enjoy them, but I don't think they should be the primary focus, as the sheer amount of unknown vocabulary and grammar at that stage is overwhelming.

Once a student has finished the equivalent of Genki II then they have a strong enough foundation with Japanese to branch out into the real world of the language and put that knowledge into practical use. At the intermediate stage textbooks and grammar study becomes the supplement, with actual use of the language being the focus. There's still a lot of necessary grammar that isn't covered by Genki, though, which is why one needs to keep working on intermediate textbooks.

Many people will try to aim at developing a single skill at a time, such as doing nothing but reading, while ignoring writing, speaking, and listening. If you focus entirely on a single skill you'll become much more proficient at it, yes, but it's not as efficient and beneficial in the long-run as developing all the skills side by side. If you're deaf and mute then indulging in monomania for reading is fine, but for those of us with working tongues and ears we need to work on all the skills for languages

The reason focusing on a single thing is less efficient is because vocabulary and grammar is going to "click" far faster and deeper when you're writing it, speaking it, hearing it, and reading it, and it's hitting your brain at all four of those conceptual angles rather than just one.

There are of course situations where a student needs to become adept at a single skill as quickly as possible. If you find out you're moving to Japan in three months, then that time is better speak with intensive listening comprehension and speech practice than with reading and writing, for example, but for most students in normal situations it's best to work on all four skills.

The fifth skill, that often gets neglected, is thinking. It's a great skill to practice as it reinforces the other ones, and can be done in most any environment. Focus on internal monologues in Japanese while taking a shower, on your way to school or work, or while laying in bed before sleep at night.

Aijin Wrote:The fifth skill, that often gets neglected, is thinking. It's a great skill to practice as it reinforces the other ones, and can be done in most any environment. Focus on internal monologues in Japanese while taking a shower, on your way to school or work, or while laying in bed before sleep at night.

I have a feeling that I have always been knowing this, and yet it slipped my mind. When I was reading a lot of English I found that I started thinking in english completely.

So I think that reading a lot might make you think in Japanese, without you trying to think in japanese.

Thanks for reminding~!

I'm doing Nukemarine's core2k deck. I just use it to focus on the single words, which just happen to have a sentence with each one of them. I have my deck set to read me the vocab word then the sentence audio right after on the question side.

But, I did take some Japanese way back in High school, so I have a small base of grammar and vocab to build off of, even if I feel like I've forgotten most of it. Yeah, I often can't understand the entire sentence based on the vocab I've learned before it, but if it really bugs me I can look it up or figure it out by what I do know of the sentence.

I found this far better then when I tried Core 2K on Smartfm, which felt like a focus on single words. Though, I could of been using it wrong.

@Aijin -- My point was getting the mass of readings into my head. I doubt that, as already mentioned before, any of these sentence will appear in a regular, daily conversation with a Japanese friend attending school (colloquial, no particles, or barely, coll. language style and expression etc.). I just heard of a friend going through KO2001, telling me it helped him personally a lot to get the hang of conversations (mass of vocabulary, readings) and I suppose he's pretty right with that. I have besides that no problem with the order. I easily took the large Anki file and took the JLPT5, 4 tag and that was it. Wasn't asked something extremely difficult from level 1 or 2, so I had nothing to be afraid of. My question was, what would be more.. let's say sufficient and effective? Doing the core-Order, or just learning KO2001 vocabulary -- or: Genki 2 vocabs and afterwards "An Approach to Intermediate Japanese" vocabs, as the follower for the Genki 2? I dunno yet.. maybe I just learn the necessary JLPT3 - my aim for this year - vocabulary?

So far I can only tell core2k/6k contains hellish a lot of economic and business vocabulary, which is sometimes a bit annoying, whereas KO2001 seems to be rather.. straight forwarded, aimed for students gaining the required vocabulary for every day life in Japan. Just my impression after 2 weeks. Yet I haven't decided, I guess I will just go with the JLPT classification along with the textbook grammar. I discovered I'm in fact not a textbook guy at ALL, once i got really used to Anki! I was shocked, but recognised learning with Anki is much more fun and more effective, so I sticky to that for some extent, besides "reading", or understanding what it's about, mangas.

I also tried watching Anime/Drama ("My Girl" was classified somewhere as 'easy', but I did only understand "porridge", as i state: Just onelongwordwithoutabreakandspace desu. I dunno how to help this, as I keep listening to Japanese for more than 14 months by now..)

Weird - I found KO2001 alot more business orientated - that's why I got bored and gave up. So far the sentences in Core2000 are alot more varied and interesting, though the grammar is way more simple. I'm studying using smart.fm's tools, which breaks the vocab into lessons; I found it impossible to use Anki to learn new information.

That said, I did skip lessons 3 and 4 on smart.fm, as they're meant to contain tons of business/politics words (don't interest me).

As for grammar, I went through Tim Kim, SRSing the sentences straight after finishing RtK and I really liked it. You learn grammar basics then learn the polite forms towards the end; this was a lot more logical to me than most textbooks, which teach ultra-polite way of speaking from the start (Japanese for Busy People, for example, doesn't even mention the dictionary form of verbs until book 2!).

Genki is quite good in that it introduces polite and casual grammar, and uses kanji from the start, but I didn't really find it great for self-study.

Tori-kun Wrote:My question was, what would be more.. let's say sufficient and effective? Doing the core-Order, or just learning KO2001 vocabulary -- or: Genki 2 vocabs and afterwards "An Approach to Intermediate Japanese" vocabs, as the follower for the Genki 2? I dunno yet.. maybe I just learn the necessary JLPT3 - my aim for this year - vocabulary?

If you're just aiming for the vocabulary lists themselves, then might as well pick JLPT3's since it's your goal.

Quote:I also tried watching Anime/Drama ("My Girl" was classified somewhere as 'easy', but I did only understand "porridge", as i state: Just onelongwordwithoutabreakandspace desu. I dunno how to help this, as I keep listening to Japanese for more than 14 months by now..)

Listening comprehension is a skill that just takes effort and a lot of time to develop (years rather than months). A language will sound like a long string of sounds until your brain knows the grammar and vocab being used well enough to parse it into distinct meanings. While you build up your grammar and vocabulary, stick to audio material at your level, and gradually increase the difficulty level. Media designed for children, things like Doraemon and Kiki's Delivery Service, is going to be the easiest to comprehend, so start there. You won't understand every single word, but if you can understand enough of the dialogue to follow the plot and interactions, then stick with it. If it's too difficult, then switch to audio designed for learner's of Japanese (textbook CDs, the JLPT audio, the audio for KO2001 and the core lists etc.) until you feel more prepared for native material.

@Aijin -- Ah, I remember having watched Tonari no Totoro and I must say as mostly the cute little children spoke - with lots of pauses, clear, not "long porridge sentences", I was able to understand pretty well and I hope it's the same with Majou no Takkyubin Thanks for the advice.. Yet I must say when I hear the audio of the core sentences while learning vocabulary, it distracts me: I know the grammar and vocabulary, but it just sounds like on big word on the whole. As I already stated I'm actually listening constantly to Japanese stuff.. I catch up words like "desukedo...", "sou desu ne" and stuff like that put in the mid-/end of a sentence. Cheers!

Children are much better models for foreigners than teenagers, since they haven't developed a habit for tons of slang yet. Textbooks introduce "proper" Japanese long before covering the more colloquial speech styles, and not many learning materials for foreigners include that type of stuff, so it will take you longer to get used to it.

Being able to catch words and grammar is something that will happen naturally once those words, patterns, and grammar are more deeply embedded in your brain. For listening comprehension you need to form a reflex arc in a sense: understanding needs to be an automatic reaction to the sounds, which just takes consistent exposure and time.

Don't worry about it, just keep studying Japanese, and working on listening, and you'll progress. To reach a high level of English listening comprehension took me THOUSANDS of hours. Set yourself daily goals, like watching one movie in Japanese per day, or so many episodes of anime (do something simple that is made for kids, like Doraemon, nothing for teenagers or adults), or an hour of studying songs, whatever you find interesting and right for your level. Eventually, I guarantee you that Japanese will no longer sound like porridge

*push*
@Aijin -- I was recently looking for some kind of "grammar" manga, so.. you learn bits and pieces of grammar which is actively applied in a manga/comic right thereafter. Does such a thing exist ("Japanese the Mangaway" - Is it that what I'm looking for?)? And how was the News-Manga website called, I accidently deleted my Bookmark!

Aijin Wrote:I think the bottom line is that if material is too difficult for one to enjoy, then they shouldn't be touching it. Shelf it until you're ready. Gradual progress with material that you can comprehend is the best way to advance.

This seems like good advice. I wish I had heard it sooner.

I currently enjoy Precure, an anime for girls. They go easy on you in the vocab department. They tend to pick common words often and rare ones sparingly. They have a set of medium frequency words they like to use over and over. Many are related to this season's theme of flowers & plants.

Are Ghibli movies good easy material?

The workbook for "Japanese the Manga Way" is this type of "Grammar" manga that you seek. I didn't find it interesting though; your mileage may vary.

Tori-Kun - I think you might want to look at something called mangajin. I can't explain it well but here's the wikipedia link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mangajin

I think you can still order back issues of it from their website.

Also i think the news-manga site you're looking for is this: http://newsmanga.com/

Thanks for the link. I was just searching desperately for a real.. newspaper in some way (in pdf format) to download all the mangas from a week/etc. for more convenience. Dunno if such a thing exist on the page, i didn't discover it, but maybe one of you have come across it and could show me. [or code a plugin/addon making automatically a pdf file out of the new manga pictures ]