Hey everyone,

I bought RTK1 in the summer of 2007. There were several failed adventures. The first time, I was so mesmerized by how well the system worked in comparison to the rote method I learned in class, I was breezing through it at around 50 kanji/day. I made it to around 450 (1 week later) before getting bogged down by distractions, unending reviews, and the start of my senior year in university.

Each successive time I have started from scratch, it has been at a "slow-and-steady" pace. (Not so) ironically, I didn't accomplish nearly as many kanji using this route as I did the first time. Even though I had learned the kanjis years ago, I could only remember a few stand-out stories. The reviews got to be tedious and never-ending, even long after I stopped adding new cards, so I quit.

I'm now on my fourth attempt, having started a new "slow-and-steady" run back in June. My new kanji-learning and reviews have been very inconsistent, and I'm now only up to Frame 369. I have reviewed these 369 kanji so many times that I have them down quite well, but I know I will not keep this pace before getting impatient/distracted/sick of kanji altogether. I don't want to be 40 by the time I finish this project.

It's now the winter holiday in Korea, where I live, and I have approximately 27 days of vacation with a small smattering workdays thrown in between. My goal is to finish the rest of the book the end of my vacation, February 7th... one month from today. Subtracting the days I have to work, that comes out to a pace of 60 kanji/day. If I find I have extra time, I might go faster than that, but 60 is the daily quota.

Why I am doing it this way:
-I am impatient by nature
-I get lazy when things are too easy. I operate better under a challenge.
-I don't like to spend a lot of time reviewing. Going as fast as possible means I'll have only done a few reviews for each kanji by the time I finish the book.
-Heisig did around 1900 in 30 days, AND that includes the time it took to research, organize, and devise his system!
-This thread will receive more attention/encouragement/criticism, and that means more social pressure to succeed!
-I'm setting a deadline for completion, which I never did on my previous runs.
-I'll feel more accomplished.

And if I fail, well, I guess that means I'll be joining the slow/steady crowd!

I'll be doing learning a few kanji over the weekend, but since I'll be out of town, breakneck speed will commence on Monday, January 10th. By then I should be at 450 kanji.

My commitment:
-Make a new post here at least every 120 kanji, updating you on my status.
-If I don't finish this book by February 7th, I will donate it to my Korean girlfriend, who is a Japanese major and already knows all the Heisig kanji and then some. In other words, it will be a completely pointless gift.

Wish me luck, or tell me how crazy I am. Anything to hold me accountable for finishing this.

What you're saying is possible, but you'll probably fail. You're underestimating a lot of things, especially the time it takes to learn a kanji you didn't see the last 3 times you started RTK. Also, comparing yourself to Heisig is a bit much. Dude was working full-time towards learning Japanese. You probably aren't.

The arbitrary deadline of one month is only gonna make you feel worse when you inevitably miss a day and find yourself facing 2-300+ reviews and 120 new kanji. My advice is to stop going for speed and start going for frequency. Make kanji a habit, and it will suddenly become very easy.

Also, don't limit yourself to kanji. Pick up a beginner's book like Understanding Basic Japanese Grammar, and just read it a few times a day. Once you can understand every sentence on a page, move on to the next one. Easy and fun.

This high-octane stuff is not for most people. The hard part isn't doing it; it's dealing with the failure when you mess up.

There were a few days where I studied 50+ kanji and had good recall, so it's definitely possible. You need to break it down though, like into 3 sessions of 20 new kanji (one when you wake up, one at lunch, one in evening) or even 4 sessions of 15 kanji. Spread reviews and failed cards equally out between these sessions.

Honestly though, it sounds like your problem is that you're not making good enough stories. What's your recall rate like on newly added cards? Also when do you review newly added blue cards? Maybe you're relying on rote memorisation of primitives, hence why learning them quickly works for you (but long term this method will fail - you need good visual stories to remember).

Also there seems to be a theme of reviews getting tedious and making you give up. No matter how fast you learn, you're going to have to do the same reviews, there's no escaping it, so you've got to learn to cope. Try and break them into multiple sessions per day (instead of doing them in one big go), also have days where you just review and don't add new cards (weekends!).

Good luck, let us know how you get on.

vgambit Wrote:What you're saying is possible, but you'll probably fail.

An average of 60 per day is possible even if you work full time except weekends (view it as 100/day on sat&sun, 45/day otherwise) and the OP seems to imply 27 days of non-workdays, which makes it completely trivial. Once you get into the swing of things you can find 180+ over the course of a day not only possible but enjoyable.

You don't need to be a speed demon, just be efficient; use a top story from this site 95%+ of the time (maybe with minor edits for formatting, spelling, etc), do reviews while walking to get food or run errands, don't get too sidetracked, etc.

It should take no more than 2-3 minutes to add a new kanji (read Hesig's notes/warnings, choose a revtk story, do minor edits, and then review it in anki 10minutes later or so) and reviews shouldn't be more than 20seconds each (and preferably half that for old primitives/kanji you no longer need to recite the story for).

vgambit Wrote:My advice is to stop going for speed and start going for frequency. Make kanji a habit, and it will suddenly become very easy.

I agree that making Japanese study a regular habit is the most important thing, but it isn't mutually exclusive with going through RtK (or any other material) quickly.

Since waking up this morning, I've dedicated my whole day to studying. I'm now on 465. Time for a weekend out. I'll make a post when I get back on Monday (Japan time) if not sooner.

aphasiac Wrote:There were a few days where I studied 50+ kanji and had good recall, so it's definitely possible. You need to break it down though, like into 3 sessions of 20 new kanji (one when you wake up, one at lunch, one in evening) or even 4 sessions of 15 kanji. Spread reviews and failed cards equally out between these sessions.

That's a good idea. I think I will up the ante on my sessions, though. I find I can better keep focus when I study in big blocks (of an hour and a half or more) and there's less opportunity for distractions in between.

vgambit Wrote:Also, don't limit yourself to kanji. Pick up a beginner's book like Understanding Basic Japanese Grammar, and just read it a few times a day. Once you can understand every sentence on a page, move on to the next one. Easy and fun.

I spent two years studying Japanese in college, and through all of that I probably remembered the meanings of less than 70 kanji, much less the writings. I've kept myself refreshed by travelling to Japan for a few weeks since then. My Japanese is nowhere near advanced or even intermediate level, but I have a basic grasp of grammar and vocabulary. Besides, Heisig says in his introduction that it's better to go through RTK independently of Japanese study.

overture2112 Wrote:An average of 60 per day is possible even if you work full time except weekends (view it as 100/day on sat&sun, 45/day otherwise) and the OP seems to imply 27 days of non-workdays, which makes it completely trivial. Once you get into the swing of things you can find 180+ over the course of a day not only possible but enjoyable.

You're right. I can get through this much faster than that. Let it be understood that 60 is my quota, therefore absolute the minimum I will do each day (leaving me room for studying Korean, exercise, socializing, and unexpected events). I will strive for much more on days I have all to myself. February 7th is the minimum time. Ideally I'd like to complete this before the end of January or earlier. The sooner the better.

Overture, you mentioned using Anki. I started out using Mnemosyne in '07, then switched to this site on my current run. Is it better to use Anki or some other software for reviews?

I did it in 20, but it was pretty stressful.

Hey.
First, since it's your what, fourth time?, why don't you use the lite version?
You have to realize since you choose the regular RTK, you'll have exponentially more reviews. And believe me, it's not the reviews around 500 that are a pain, it's after 1500.

Reviewing is part of the learning process. For kanji it's the most efficient therefore unavoidable way. A reasonable attitude to adopt towards reviewing is to aim for frequency rather than speed. Everyday, first thing in the morning, review. Don't think, don't procrastinate, just do it. Develop this reviewing routine. Don't even stop for weekends, birthdays, new year's eves. In my experience, it's the reviewing that gets you through.

That being said, you seem motivated, so it should work out fine. But they say reviewing is more important than adding, and I completely agree.

My first runthrough I got through at a good pace, and slogged through so many daily reviews, so many failed cards and just kept at it.

Nothing was going to stop me


I ended up having circumstances out of my control stop me from reviewing for a few days the day after I entered the last card into srs mode.


I came back to a 1300 review pile.

I never climbed back out.


I am on by second completion, taking it easier this time, i did the 130 kanji lesson in a day ( was very easy since I knew it so well ) Other days i might do a full lesson or two depending on their size, or none at all. I'm now hitting around 200 reviews a day and I'm at 1800 and the end ofthe book I have lost most of the benefit of the last runthrough.

I've slowed down dramatically now.


Just my experiences, it's better to finish and remain sane than to not finish, if piles get too big, back off a bit instead of making it worse and getting overwhelmed.

Just remember that getting to the end of the book is not the end point with Heisig, There's gonna be a whole lot more work reviewing / relearning after the vacation is up. Plus I guess you'll be learning actual Japanese at the same time.

Anyways good luck Rather you than me

I'm now at frame 514

After having shamefully slacked after returning from my weekend away, it's time to hit the books all day, or I'm not gonna make my end-of-month goal. Not proud of my lack of progress.

All the reviews are clear, and my average retention rate is around 90%.

Good for you.
Keep that momentum.

701.

A couple weeks ago I went through RTK1 in 4 days after having not written any kanji in over a year.

Now I remember how to write most of them again, just not when to use them... I'll graduate from being a ワープロ馬鹿 some day.

777.

Reviews are getting a rougher at this point. I'm just a bit over 80% recall now. Also, I haven't been studying consistently. My pattern seems to be skipping a day and then going hardcore the next.
With other things getting unexpectedly added to my schedule, its apparent I won't be finishing this by the end of the month. I can still make the Feb 7 deadline though.

All of this is normal.
You shouldn't stop now at any rate. Most of the time I did 75 every 2 days. The main point is not to break the habit, at any cost. ***** deadlines and just keep going.

止めない！　This may be my first post, and I'm giving it to you.

I seem to do almost as well with 100-card-add-days as 50. There are, however, twice as many new reviews the next day. So even if you don't add cards for a day, it'll be a whole lot easier to make your quota tomorrow if you at least review today. You say you don't like reviewing a lot. Okay, but (and this is my opinion) adding cards at the expense of reviewing seems to be lacking a fundamental component of the system, like the 'remembering' part of RTK. 80% recall sounds doable though. Over 80% and I feel like I'm at least moving forward. If I go under (and, unfortunately, I was under for a good stretch there) I feel like I'm wading through a muddy bog full of quicksand while, simultaneously, beating my head against a brick wall as my sinking momentum overtakes my forward inertia. Keep that head up!

I look at my Anki reviews as a kind of ritual. I suppose I could put it off or forget about it, but I don't--at this point, those feelings don't even factor into the equation. Maybe if you pretend you feel this way... don't underestimate the power of pretending.

Granted, my RTK adventure has aborted twice in as many years. But today I reach 2042. And I'll be moving on. I don't need to contemplate utility or worth; I'm simply moving on. It's time for you too, right?

頑張って。

shinraunit Wrote:Overture, you mentioned using Anki. I started out using Mnemosyne in '07, then switched to this site on my current run. Is it better to use Anki or some other software for reviews?

I used this site for getting all my stories; usually choosing one of the top 5, maybe making some formatting edits, and carefully noting when people suggest making a story for a common combination of kanji that Heisig didn't notice.

After adding at least 10 but never more than 30, I'd then kill about 2-5min before reviewing those new kanji in anki. To make things easier, I wrote a script that fetched my stories from this site and updated my anki deck (adjusting some formatting to my preferred style). I set my deck to show new cards before reviews since I'd occasionally get bursts of 30+ due cards throughout the card adding intervals that would otherwise delay me.

I haven't bothered using the learning mechanism on this site or most other SRS systems, so I can't honestly say whether they're inferior in any pedagogical sense, and I'd be surprised if my method didn't work equally well in said systems, but I prefer Anki because it's a very open platform that's easy to extend and configure.

Here's my anecdotal experience:
50-80 Kanji/day with little to no other schoolwork required
Got overloaded with reviews and started failing a lot of cards at 1000 mark
Quit after getting distracted/hating Anki

I'm now restarting with a more relaxed view. 30 Kanji/day.

Keep it up! I like to read your thread, because its inspiring me as well. I just hit Frame 700 this week! (I started in December 7, 2010; one day after taking the JLPT 1)

I do 25 a day, and my regular reviews are about 175 cards per day. So i do half in the morning commute, and half in the evening commute. I also bought a nice notebook and scribble the kanji on that. Its fun seeing a page of kanji after a days review on Anki.

I am very thankful to Koohi.com as the stories from the people on this site have been so amazing at practicing writing kanji. I fail a lot of kanji each day, but it doesnt bother me, as I disable leeches and just keep revieweing the failed kanji at least 3 times. I also try not to use '3' and '4' in anki, but only use '2', to keep my daily review as high as possible. Pain is key

Best of luck to us both! We gotta finish the book!

zachandhobbes Wrote:Here's my anecdotal experience:
50-80 Kanji/day with little to no other schoolwork required
Got overloaded with reviews and started failing a lot of cards at 1000 mark

If your average daily review count is higher than you'd like, just slow down or don't add any at all for a day or two- it doesn't take long at all for intervals to become quite large.

Also, careful not to fall into the trap of spending more than 10 seconds per review. Fast review times are the key to handling large due counts.

animehunter123 Wrote:I also try not to use '3' and '4' in anki, but only use '2', to keep my daily review as high as possible. Pain is key

I recommend you don't do this. It will result in a ridiculous amount of reviews, which isn't really all that necessary because the algorithm does its job just fine with the standard 'space bar' answer option (2 for failed, 3 for rest). I think we have a thread with graphs on this or something.

Marking a card in Anki with '2' affects future intervals as well, as Anki tries to guess the 'difficulty' of a card based on how often you hit '2'/'3'/'4'. Messing with this will just cause you lots more pain down the road.

Also, it's somewhat defeating of the purpose of SRS as well. SRS isn't just about minimizing the required daily reviews. There are studies that showed testing yourself when you are truly on the edge of forgetting strengthens a memory more than if you had reviewed more frequently.

Again, don't mess with the algorithm.

very true about the edge of memory thing.

Today I randomly reviewed something for my bio test tomorrow that I hadn't thought about for a week and now I can't forget it.

Oh wow... thanks for telling me about 3/4. It made reviews easier, I will start using 3 more then 2 from now. Thanks guys!

I use spacebar on Anki unless I completely miss it. I think that will count it as the default "Good" (green) answer. Makes reviews faster.

good luck. I sincerely hope you make it! Try to be consistent rather than missing and catching up, as that will avoid huge #'s of reviews... as much as possible