I was wondering about this for sometime. I'm currently working on some translation pieces on my own(for fun). But I was wondering to myself. How do you improve this? (Please don't say just learn japanese, or learn more. Because that's always happening)

Whenever I'm working on translating a certain piece I sometimes say to myself(Is this translation correct?, if so, is there really a thing as "prefect" translation" and such. My question is, how should I improve these skills?

A lot of people are far more advanced on this then me. I'm asking for some advice+tips on this. Any help will do me good. Thanks in advance everyone!

(One thing I know for myself is, try to get scripts on both languages and see how there translated piece by piece if possible)

When I began learning English I never really set out to deliberately develop translation skills, but what I noticed is that getting lots of feedback is a very good way to improve those skills. In my class we used to have an exercise where everyone would translate the same magazine article from English into Russian and then we would compare our translations and discuss ways to improve them. This helped me notice many common mistakes and recurring problems early on and deal with them. For example, I realized that my translations often had phrases that were very good approximations of the original English phrases, but sounded completely unnatural in Russian. If you don't notice such phrases and never have anyone point them out to you they tend to lead to bad habits that are hard to get rid of.

So I guess bouncing your translating ideas off fellow students of Japanese could be beneficial to your translation skills. You could even ask your friends who aren't studying Japanese whether or not your translations sound natural. But, as I said, I am not that into translation, so there may be better methods that I am not aware of. I do agree that "just learn Japanese" is poor advice, since translation is a very specific skill that is only partially dependent on your fluency in the target language.

You're going to hate me... but translate more. Just keep doing it and doing it. I wouldn't say this, particularly after your warning not to, but it's true. It's how I improved my translation skills.

I was at a point in Japanese where I was completely comfortable to do most things, but when I had to translate (spoken or written), I stumbled around and took some time. Now, after translating a bunch, that doesn't happen anymore.

How to be a good translator? That really depends on your English background. If it is strong, you will be able to translate well. I use to write short-stories and novels in English, so I like to think I can write good prose, but that's just me. Though this is important so you don't translate only to have spelling or grammatical errors in your English.

vonPeterhof Wrote:When I began learning English I never really set out to deliberately develop translation skills, but what I noticed is that getting lots of feedback is a very good way to improve those skills. In my class we used to have an exercise where everyone would translate the same magazine article from English into Russian and then we would compare our translations and discuss ways to improve them. This helped me notice many common mistakes and recurring problems early on and deal with them. For example, I realized that my translations often had phrases that were very good approximations of the original English phrases, but sounded completely unnatural in Russian. If you don't notice such phrases and never have anyone point them out to you they tend to lead to bad habits that are hard to get rid of.

So I guess bouncing your translating ideas off fellow students of Japanese could be beneficial to your translation skills. You could even ask your friends who aren't studying Japanese whether or not your translations sound natural. But, as I said, I am not that into translation, so there may be better methods that I am not aware of. I do agree that "just learn Japanese" is poor advice, since translation is a very specific skill that is only partially dependent on your fluency in the target language.

Same here I've been noticing the more I learn japanese, the more translating do become easier. I have noticed that english/japanese are very different as well. Whenever one translates from one language to another, the goal is to make it sound natural while trying to keep the true meaning as much as possible. So whenever I try to translate japanese to english, I do take into account how translating into english is to make it sound natural as much as possible, in english of course.

I also noticed when translating, you can directly translate from what you hear. But it's best to make that translation more naturally sounding in english then what it really means in japanese. I noticed how a few times when only a few words have been spoken but the translation is like almost 2 sentences long. This is basically translating off the context of what your translating from. So I know those little details about translation . I'm just trying to anymore good tips on improving it.

Ryuujin27 Wrote:You're going to hate me... but translate more. Just keep doing it and doing it. I wouldn't say this, particularly after your warning not to, but it's true. It's how I improved my translation skills.

I was at a point in Japanese where I was completely comfortable to do most things, but when I had to translate (spoken or written), I stumbled around and took some time. Now, after translating a bunch, that doesn't happen anymore.

How to be a good translator? That really depends on your English background. If it is strong, you will be able to translate well. I use to write short-stories and novels in English, so I like to think I can write good prose, but that's just me. Though this is important so you don't translate only to have spelling or grammatical errors in your English.

That's true. As for my background in english. I'll be honest and say I wasn't really much of a writer. But I did read a lot/write a lot about stuff that is interesting to me. Still do of course. I do the same thing in japanese. But I've been noticing more and more the nuisances that languages have. So now I'm becoming more conscious of grammar, spelling and sounding natural.

Maybe I should create a thread for posting translations(specific things). I agree with Ryuujin27 a lot. The more I kept focusing on translating things like a paragraph from a novel,article. It started to become clearer. Anything I translated, it started becoming easier. Although I think getting feedback will help me improve it a lot. But for the time being I will try to get professional translations on certain things (if possible) and read up on professional translators and how they improved their skills.

You could always join a translation group and translate anime/manga/light novels/VNs, etc. That way the "fans" will rate your translations and you'll know where you need improvement.

Be warned though, this isn't for the faint of heart. People are mean when they are behind an anonymous title.

I did some fan translations a while back; the fans don't know any Japanese so can't really rate your translation ability, just your English grammar.

I don't know. There was a whole website set up pointing out the mistakes a friend of mine made translating some gundams.

Ryuujin27 Wrote:You could always join a translation group and translate anime/manga/light novels/VNs, etc. That way the "fans" will rate your translations and you'll know where you need improvement.

Be warned though, this isn't for the faint of heart. People are mean when they are behind an anonymous title.

I was thinking of joining one this year. As for the criticisms I've heard there pretty mean(or should I say crazy at times). I can handle the critics, I've had my fair of criticism in my life. The internet is the internet,so I don't really take any offense from it

yudantaiteki Wrote:I did some fan translations a while back; the fans don't know any Japanese so can't really rate your translation ability, just your English grammar.

Hmm, either way it helps I guess. Although feedback from people who have experience in translation is desired more than anything.

I don't know if this helps but you can talk to one of your language teachers if you have one. They usually have connection to people in the industry so maybe this will let you get into contact with someone. If that doesn't work maybe there is a forum on translating that people can help you with. I will try looking and see if I find something.

I found this one after a quick search not sure if it goods.

http://www.translatorsbase.com/Forum/Default.aspx

Just keep in mind that translation is one of the toughest stuff on earth. Especially with languages as different as Indo-European and Japanese.
Le Ton beau de Marot is a book that is specifically about translation, Written by Douglas Hofstadter, famous for his "Gödel, Escher, Bach". Didn't read it myself, but It's definitely on my reading list. He considers it his own masterpiece.
But let the title itself be an exercise on translation, lol, if you speak some french to see the play of words. This one simple sentence is nearly impossible to translate, and french and english are even closely related!

So I'd just say: A)learn to really appreciate the incredible subtlety of translation
B) Study translations that are known to be good (like the french translation of above-mentioned GEB, it has won prizes. Yes, there are prizes for translations.) Really study them, and try to see what makes them good translations.
and C) read a lot of literature and poetry. To really get a feel for the flow of prose, both in your target and source language.

I'd say good luck on your travels in one of the hardest but most rewarding trades in the world!
Cheers

Jorre

Personally, I'm having a blast translating KiC's sentences into English but it can get tedious from time to time because I'm not a native and certainly not a professional translator. Translating into English is just a way for me to train my English skills and prove to myself that I don't suck at Japanese anymore.

My Chinese friend is studying translation at a Japanese university, so there must be a way to study it formally. I've been meaning to ask her more about it actually. There must be some books on the topic on Amazon or something.

Anyway, the recognition-production gap still exists in your native language, just like it does in Japanese. Sure you're at "native level", but can you whip out a presidential speech whenever you feel like it without hours of careful preparation? Oxford and Cambridge keep putting out thesauri, so people must be using them.

What point am I making? Your ability to translate probably depends just as much on your ability in the field of the text as it does on your ability to understand Japanese. I can comfortably read articles from the Guardian and John Grisham novels, but I suck at journalism and creative prose, so it's unlikely that I'm going to be able to translate Japanese news and novels without a fair bit of practice writing in English first, no matter how well I can understand them.

If you're looking to do it as a career, and already have some idea of the area you'd like to go into, then maybe you could start a blog in English to practise some writing to give yourself the background Ryuujin27 was talking about.

Edit: A Course on Japanese Translation could be interesting. It considers J-E/E-J issues, rather than generally discussing the topic of translation itself.

jorrebenst Wrote:Just keep in mind that translation is one of the toughest stuff on earth. Especially with languages as different as Indo-European and Japanese.
Le Ton beau de Marot is a book that is specifically about translation, Written by Douglas Hofstadter, famous for his "Gödel, Escher, Bach". Didn't read it myself, but It's definitely on my reading list. He considers it his own masterpiece.
But let the title itself be an exercise on translation, lol, if you speak some french to see the play of words. This one simple sentence is nearly impossible to translate, and french and english are even closely related!

So I'd just say: A)learn to really appreciate the incredible subtlety of translation
B) Study translations that are known to be good (like the french translation of above-mentioned GEB, it has won prizes. Yes, there are prizes for translations.) Really study them, and try to see what makes them good translations.
and C) read a lot of literature and poetry. To really get a feel for the flow of prose, both in your target and source language.

I'd say good luck on your travels in one of the hardest but most rewarding trades in the world!
Cheers

Jorre

Nice advice. I agree and have also noticed the differences in the language. Therefore the translation is to be treated as such. I've always noticed how people translate from context and also make it sound natural in english. There are direct translations and "liberal" ones that people use.

I always enjoy reading in japanese, so I will keep that up as well as my studies for Japanese. Prizes for translation, that sounds fun. I hope the day will come when I can translate very well(if not, I will make it happen. But that's how it's always like)

Hardest trade? I believe the things that are enjoyable, no matter if it's hard or not. End up being fun to do, no matter the difficulty that arises.

Javizy Wrote:My Chinese friend is studying translation at a Japanese university, so there must be a way to study it formally. I've been meaning to ask her more about it actually. There must be some books on the topic on Amazon or something.

Anyway, the recognition-production gap still exists in your native language, just like it does in Japanese. Sure you're at "native level", but can you whip out a presidential speech whenever you feel like it without hours of careful preparation? Oxford and Cambridge keep putting out thesauri, so people must be using them.

What point am I making? Your ability to translate probably depends just as much on your ability in the field of the text as it does on your ability to understand Japanese. I can comfortably read articles from the Guardian and John Grisham novels, but I suck at journalism and creative prose, so it's unlikely that I'm going to be able to translate Japanese news and novels without a fair bit of practice writing in English first, no matter how well I can understand them.

If you're looking to do it as a career, and already have some idea of the area you'd like to go into, then maybe you could start a blog in English to practise some writing to give yourself the background Ryuujin27 was talking about.

Edit: A Course on Japanese Translation could be interesting. It considers J-E/E-J issues, rather than generally discussing the topic of translation itself.

I do know that the text one translates is easier when the person has a knowledge of that specific field. So if I'm studying chemistry for example, translating text relating to that can help me out. But topics on journalism, speeches, etc. Would take huge preparation to do right. I know right know I should start out small and work my way up. Personally I've yet to decide on a specific field to do full-time. Translation is something I'm doing now so I can get it up to a high level as I keep improving in japanese and eventually decide on a field.

ta12121 Wrote:

Javizy Wrote:...

I do know that the text one translates is easier when the person has a knowledge of that specific field. So if I'm studying chemistry for example, translating text relating to that can help me out. But topics on journalism, speeches, etc. Would take huge preparation to do right. I know right know I should start out small and work my way up. Personally I've yet to decide on a specific field to do full-time. Translation is something I'm doing now so I can get it up to a high level as I keep improving in Japanese and eventually decide on a field.

Yups, that is essential too. To return to my "favorite" book*, GEB, again: the Japanese translation was done by a team of two major science professors and a linguist. Supposedly a very good translation too. The translators said that they could never completely translate all the puns and word plays in the book, but they promised that they added at least as many to keep the original number the same, haha.

*Definitely not my real favorite book, but it's a very nice example of something that has been deemed untranslatable on release, but has been successfully and award-winningly been translated in dozens of languages, including Chinese and Japanese, and most west-European languages.

jorrebenst Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:

Javizy Wrote:...

I do know that the text one translates is easier when the person has a knowledge of that specific field. So if I'm studying chemistry for example, translating text relating to that can help me out. But topics on journalism, speeches, etc. Would take huge preparation to do right. I know right know I should start out small and work my way up. Personally I've yet to decide on a specific field to do full-time. Translation is something I'm doing now so I can get it up to a high level as I keep improving in Japanese and eventually decide on a field.

Yups, that is essential too. To return to my "favorite" book*, GEB, again: the Japanese translation was done by a team of two major science professors and a linguist. Supposedly a very good translation too. The translators said that they could never completely translate all the puns and word plays in the book, but they promised that they added at least as many to keep the original number the same, haha.

*Definitely not my real favorite book, but it's a very nice example of something that has been deemed untranslatable on release, but has been successfully and award-winningly been translated in dozens of languages, including Chinese and Japanese, and most west-European languages.

Make sense, due to not having the knowledge for that specific topic(s) (therefore the translation is done by multiple people in specific fields) . For me I know I will start with small/easier things to translate.

found a good website talking about J-E translations http://www.soas.ac.uk/languagecentre/tea...TRODUCTION

Another good link:
http://ginstrom.com/translation/translat...tfalls.php

I have some tips that I've invented myself. For translating long sentences when your Japanese is not so good yet.


1) Understand the sentence completely in Japanese.

2) Copy/paste the single sentence to http://nowdothis.com/

3) Use Rikaichan to look up the meanings and write all relevant definitions down in almost the same order as the jap. sentence.

4) Decide on what meanings are irrelevant, delete them.

5) Make chunks of words which go logically great together.

6) Take all those chunks (you will probably have 3-10 chunks) and reorder them according to the grammar of English (your Target language)

7) Make final grammatical adjustments

8) Replace some phrases with better English Equivalents.

9) Examine the flow of the sentence

Voila, ready!

ta12121 Wrote:

Ryuujin27 Wrote:You could always join a translation group and translate anime/manga/light novels/VNs, etc. That way the "fans" will rate your translations and you'll know where you need improvement.

Be warned though, this isn't for the faint of heart. People are mean when they are behind an anonymous title.

I was thinking of joining one this year. As for the criticisms I've heard there pretty mean(or should I say crazy at times). I can handle the critics, I've had my fair of criticism in my life. The internet is the internet,so I don't really take any offense from it

If you don't know the difference between "there", "their", and "they're" you might as well give up now. Just kidding of course!

Hashiriya Wrote:If you don't know the difference between "there", "their", and "they're" you might as well give up now. Just kidding of course!

Actually I'm quite curious as to how much it takes for him to write his long posts, because I'm getting the feeling that perhaps I should also switch to this writing mode.

fuch dem mistakes, time is more important.

The people who read my posts made their own choice to read my posts... so ...

Even better:
But wait! Caffeinate yourself now and you will save even more time! Drink your cup NOW!

I'm translating 徒然草 as part of an independent study...Nothing formal or going to be published or anything...but there's some lingering credits I have to earn.

One thing that's helping me is first translating it on my own, and then reading an "authorized" translation by someone else. If it got published, it means someone thought it was good, right?

One the harder things to get across is the tone/style/feel of the original. You obviously have your own style, and the author has theirs -- but when you're translating, you've got to try to ignore your own style and match what the author had.

Getting feedback from other people who are familiar with the original text would be helpful. You may be misunderstanding things, not getting references, not picking up on jokes, etc.. and that can all affect the tone of the text. People "smarter" than you can really help out with this -- especially other translator buddies.

But it really does come down to just doing it more -- revising your old things, changing some words, and continually evolving. Come back to old works later on and see how you could improve upon them once in a while.

Bah, the book has been put back until 15th September, and is now called The Routledge Course in Japanese Translation by Yoko Hasegawa. There's a list of topics on the official website. Looks like it could be quite useful.