バーテンダー is based on quite a good manga and spin off anime. It has Aiba Masaki as the lead (he's sort of solid as an actor, but I've only really seen him on variety shows.) I think it should be, hopefully, pretty mature. The anime was fairly good and pretty reasonable in it's language use, so it's worth picking up, if your in Japan or have access to DVDs, whatever.

# Friday, 11:15 on TV Asahi.
http://wiki.d-addicts.com/Bartender
http://wiki.d-addicts.com/Aiba_Masaki

By the way, who else is looking forward to the live action Gantz?

aphasiac Wrote:Many British soaps, e.g. Eastenders, Hollyoaks, Coronation Street, use very natural realistic British-English and UK-slang. They're meant to be real people talking to each other, so the writing and acting reflects this.

Watching these types of dramas is a great way of picking up natural speaking and listening skills - I guess Icecream is looking for the Japanese equivalent?

I'm pretty sure if an foreign English speaker started speaking like a character off Eastenders it would be as amusing as ice cream appears to some Japanese people.

Best is something live but without people playing up for cameras like the 24hr big brother E4 used to have.

IceCream Wrote:...It's things like using 「だよね」　or 「XXXじゃないですか」 when it's not a negation.
...
ways of saying things are kinda harder.

What's wrong with だよね etc? I'm pretty sure I heard those things in real speech...?

Well, you're in Japan, aren't you? You could just hang out with people and just listen...You can't stop/rewind and it might be weird not interacting, but I'm sure it could happen somehow. Even sitting and eavesdropping on people at Starbucks or something could work.

As for TV shows...Seems like they've got a lot of 'unscripted' variety shows and things. Just turn on the TV and listen. Tape/DVR/Record it if you want. If you hear certain things over and over, take note of it. Also take note of the things you often say, but never hear them say.

The podcast thing is a good idea too.

But I'm still not 100% sure what it is that's making you sound "drama-ish..."

Apologies if someone has already recommended this (it's late!):

http://www.asianrice.tv/browse/Japanese

It's free and has full subtitled screenings of a vast array of TV and film stuff, a lot pretty low-key and realistic. I totally agree with the poster who recommended Ryomaden; I'd also recommend Tenchijin, the historical drama previous to Ryomaden. Should be on Asian Rice.

Have fun!

If you're being laughed at for saying things like だよね and ～じゃないですか, then I would say it is probably the inflection you are using to say it - which can easily be picked up from dramas. While I've noticed many natural drama scripts, it's usually the delivery that makes you think... huh, this is clearly scripted.

Anime is the biggest culprit of this. I recently tried to watch 神のみぞ知るセカイ and had to give up after two episodes because I couldn't take the ridiculous speech and forced lines. I felt like I was watching it dubbed in English... that's how bad the lines felt delivered to me.

lol I can SO hear that, too. That would have been hilarious.

IceCream Wrote:(the situation was, i was reallllllly drunk & fell off a table onto a chair [i've been told, i don't actually remember that part] and then someone else was on the table & i said 「危ないじゃないですか？！？気をつけてね！」 in an exagerated voice, and someone else said something like 「そうだよ！危ないよ！」 and i said 「だよねー！」. If you imagine a really cheesy drama, that's exactly how i said it )

I'm soooo glad i understand now. i was really scared for a bit!!

That's hilarious. If you come off as scripted comedy when you're drunk, is that really such a bad thing?

Haha, that's hilarious IceCream. I've had the same kind of moments, so I know exactly what you are talking about. I've said some really stupid sounding things even at 合コン, so don't feel like you're alone.

Also, if you want to remedy the old woman speech, when you say だよね drop your jaw and hold your mouth open without moving your lips when you say it. It should get you a manlier inflection. And if you drop the です in ～じゃないですか it should sound a bit better. Just watch that exaggeration

My mistake - I can never keep track of genders on this forum. Naturally, as this is the internet, I always assume male (not meant as sexist, 50% a joke and 50% harsh reality). But I've learned on this forum that never holds true.

We really need a gender icon placed next to our names.

And in that case, draw out the ね a bit more. And for the ~じゃないですか drop the ですか and put an inflection like you are asking a question (which you are) on the end.

Sounds like Koichi of Tofugu/Textfugu. Admitedly, I like Koichi, but he certainly discourages people from using anime to help learn Japanese (he promotes lots of textbook study), and is quick to tell anime fans that being an anime watcher is not a legit reason to learn the language. However, he's pretty funny (this is probably why I sound really weird when I speak Japanese).

Yes, watching native material made for native speakers and using it as a source of study is guaranteed to harm your language abilities.

Also, if you want to learn the language to gain access to said native material, you should probably just give up.

astendra Wrote:Yes, watching native material made for native speakers and using it as a source of study is guaranteed to harm your language abilities.

Also, if you want to learn the language to gain access to said native material, you should probably just give up.

I hope your entire post was sarcastic. Some people actually believe everything you said.

Everyone has a reason for learning a language. Why would video entertainment be any less of a 'good reason' than wanting to converse with natives for entertainment? Hint: It's not.

Sorry, I wasn't being very clear.

As long as you put in some grade of effort, I believe anything can be a perfectly valid study source. And I think discouraging people to learn because they have the 'wrong' reason for doing so comes across as slightly elitist.

No matter what language you're talking about, whether it's L1 or L2, whatever you're surrounded with will affect you. I realized this after my brother moved to Los Angeles a few years ago to follow his screenwriting dream. He now talks like the movies and TV show characters that he watches and writes about 24/7! Scary, but true.

wemaydance Wrote:No matter what language you're talking about, whether it's L1 or L2, whatever you're surrounded with will affect you. I realized this after my brother moved to Los Angeles a few years ago to follow his screenwriting dream. He now talks like the movies and TV show characters that he watches and writes about 24/7! Scary, but true.

I don't think anyone's denying that.

What we're denying is that it hurts your language learning.

Yes, you'll probably have to un-learn that at some point, but if it helps rocket you ahead, you're WAY ahead. If it only manages to get you talking sooner, you're still WAY ahead. If it only keeps your motivation... See the pattern here?

The -only- downside is a little (possible!) embarrassment at some later date. You will make so many mistakes while learning a language that embarrassment is virtually guaranteed. A little more won't make a difference.

I suppose a little care should be taken not to sound like Frankie from One Piece, or the main character from My Boss My Hero, but I don't think people are really in much danger of that unless that's the only show they watch, and the only person they imitate.

Edit: And to be honest, sounding like the guy from MBMH would be pretty hilarious. I bet I could make a lot of friends if I sounded like that.

wccrawford Wrote:Yes, you'll probably have to un-learn that at some point, but if it helps rocket you ahead, you're WAY ahead. If it only manages to get you talking sooner, you're still WAY ahead.

Oh totally. TV is way more accessible to beginners such as myself. Especially since we don't have the advantage that Japanese children do of having parents constantly giving us language input!

Right now I am watching a lot of dramas. Once my skills get better I'm hoping to add on other types of shows and eventually, real conversations with Japanese people.

wemaydance Wrote:

wccrawford Wrote:Yes, you'll probably have to un-learn that at some point, but if it helps rocket you ahead, you're WAY ahead. If it only manages to get you talking sooner, you're still WAY ahead.

Oh totally. TV is way more accessible to beginners such as myself. Especially since we don't have the advantage that Japanese children do of having parents constantly giving us language input!

Right now I am watching a lot of dramas. Once my skills get better I'm hoping to add on other types of shows and eventually, real conversations with Japanese people.

Can I recommend you change that order?

I'm just starting to watch my first sub-less drama (because I couldn't find it with subs, mainly). It's really, really hard. I'm just barely understanding. I started talking with a Skype partner like 6 or 8 months ago.

So I'd advise to get a partner now. It's easier than you think, especially if they're learning English, too. Even beyond the practice, it's incredibly rewarding, which helps a lot with the motivation.

wemaydance Wrote:No matter what language you're talking about, whether it's L1 or L2, whatever you're surrounded with will affect you. I realized this after my brother moved to Los Angeles a few years ago to follow his screenwriting dream. He now talks like the movies and TV show characters that he watches and writes about 24/7! Scary, but true.

Very true. However, even if you sounded like Jesse Ventura you'd still be speaking with ease.

I unfortunately cannot give a better post right now because typing on a Wii is a pain.

Lol learning from dorama enables you to have fun with Japanese in a way the classroom never really does... for example just for fun sometimes on purpose I'll say something that sounds like it comes straight from the mouth of a brooding dorama protagonist. The reactions are always classic...

the other day my flatmate asked me some real trivial question like do we have any milk? or something like that... n I was like 知らねえよ！ n she was like　え！？超びっくりしたよ！何その態度とか思って... it was funny as. She's from Osaka so she gets it.

But I guess you gotta be wary about this stuff creeping into your speech UNintentionally. Sometimes it will! I've definitely said a few things here and there not on purpose which got unexpected responses like え？怒ってるの？ haha. But like any mistake that kinda thing clears itself up after awhile. Though, it's classic being able to rant like angry/brooding/hot-headed males in dorama do. A skill that can only be learned from watching dorama... or pissing off a lot of Japanese dudes.