I just don't get it.
I tried.
Case study 1: 電車男. Supposedly good. Won prizes. I just made a random search for "good Japanese drama" or something in the likes of that, and found this. I couldn't stand it. Couldn't even finish the first episode. Everything is so bloody fake... just like every other drama I've seen (drama about contemporary settings that is, historical drama can be a better but I'm more interested in the former.).
Case study 2: Strawberry Shortcakes. Basically did the same thing: did a quasi-random Google search for some good Japanese movies.
Wonderful. I just feel like these people could really be real, you know? Very convincing. Such a huge contrast with the *extreme* fakeness of drama. Now why is it that Japanese cinema and Japanese TV is worlds apart in terms of acting style? For a large part they are the same actors, so that can't be the cause. For example, one of the girls in Strawberry Shortcakes also plays a role in "summer snow", again an incredibly artificial drama, while Strawberry Shortcakes was so natural... I couldn't even recognize the actress! Soo different...
These are just random examples that I've tried in the last few days. More movies that have the "natural" feel that I'm talking about are: 誰も知らない, Tokyo sonata, 転々(Adrift in Tokyo), Vibrator, ...
More drama that sucks (IMO): GTO, ごくせん, My girl, ...

God I HOPE that it's just me not looking hard enough, because IMO all the drama I've seen is simply crap. So please enlighten me, show me a drama that is more like Japanese cinema, and less like drama. And if it doesn't exist, I'll just crawl into a corner and wallow in my own movie-snobism and never watch drama again.
I also DO know that the movies I listed are more the artsy type instead of the commercial stuff, but I don't necessarily only like artsy movies. For example: I LOVE firefly. Commercial, with comedy, sci-fi, so definitely not an artsy, serious series.

Sorry for the semi-troll, and thanks for getting this far, lol = )

Cheers

Jorre

Do you like any English-language drama shows? All the Japanese ones you listed are comedies, they are meant to be fake, like a gentle sitcom.

Although I agree about 電車男 - why is there so much crying?? Surely no group of real people, even ones who spend all their time on forums, cry this much.

Hah, I am at about the 7th episode with 電車男 now.
It's so unreal that that's what makes it interesting. I mean, how can something just be so stupid and BS-shly romantic in real life. But after a while it gets too boring...
I was really considering whether to keep on watching or no.

But those bad dramas somehow get me addicted sometimes, but it depends on something I guess.

I have to agree with My girl, and densha, they are really unreal.
Like there's bad pop music and good pop music, like there are good anime's and the gazillion ones that have the same plot...the same goes for dramas.

I think atsuhime was a very good drama( although a bit hard perhaps). Maybe スマイル is also better than nothing, not sure yet, have to keep on watching(?)
Oh and Tiger and dragon may be fake, but It's good nonetheless. And unique.

Altogether I estimate that about 95% of japanese dramas are BS, so you have to keep on searching for good ones.

転々 is some comedy too, I liked that. And summer snow isn't supposed to be comedy I think... But it's not comedy that I hate. It's fakeness that I hate. Comedy can be natural and realistic too, you know : ) stuff like Garden state is an example of convincing comedy, IMO.
And as for english language shows, I never really looked into them alot. Series I've seen some episodes of and enjoyed would be house, firefly, dexter, desperate housewives, stuff like that. Desperate housewives is convincing comedy too.
But do you see what I mean when I say that japanese drama is fake? I just can't even remotely with the best intentions in the world imagine a character from a drama actually being real. That's just odd.

@ jettyke: yeah, those taiga drama are pretty good, but I'm more interested in contemporary settings.
But that doesn't explain the fact that japanese films are actually pretty darn good... more than 5 % at least = ) Why the discrepancy?

jettyke Wrote:Oh and Tiger and dragon may be fake, but It's good nonetheless. And unique.

This, also Trick. These two might be the only (non-Taiga) dramas that I actually enjoyed a lot.
I've also heard good things about 結婚できない男. Well seeing how it's starring Abe Hiroshi, who is quite possibly the manliest Japanese person since Emperor Jinmu, it can't be bad, but don't take my word for it. I've only seen one episode of the Korean adaptation so far.

jorrebenst Wrote:I just don't get it.
I tried.

Just like American TV, there are shows I love and hate in Japanese.

I also tried Densha Otoko and Strawberry on the Shortcake and couldn't stand them.

But I also tried Mr. Brain, Boss, My Boss My Hero, Dragon Zakura, Godhand Teru, and others and found them to be amazing.

Perhaps it's just that fake doesn't make a drama bad...fantasizing is ok, I think.

very common, boring, irritating plot
+
commercial production
+
unprofessionality
+
doesn't have anything in common with your interests
+
just stupid characters, which act unreasonably ( like the Otaku in densha, who makes a really big problem out of every small step he takes. And if he has to think about something then right away he asks the opinions of other nerds on the forums.)
+
all the other bad details
=

YOU DON'T LIKE IT?

*edit: One other thing that disturbs me is that they have policemen or lawyers on every god damn show. And they are nearly always pictured as interesting or very good and respectable/fun people...when in reality I couldn't stand those kind of people.

Judging by my own experiences, policemen in Japan seem to be nice people for the most part. I would have been lost all the time if it wasn't for them
Now lawyers on the other hand.. :p

wccrawford Wrote:I also tried Densha Otoko and Strawberry on the Shortcake and couldn't stand them.

Note that I'm not talking about the drama, I'm talking about the movie ストロベリーショートケイクス, which is really good. Recommended! Didn't see the drama.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawberry_Shortcakes

But I'll take a look at those you all listed, some look promising. Thanks!

I've only recently gotten into Japanese dramas, but I greatly enjoyed three this season and two last season. There were even a few more I would have watched if I'd had the time. It's true that two of them involved police, and a third involved lawyers, but I don't have an irrational hatred of policemen or lawyers, so I didn't mind.

I guess there's just no accounting for personal taste :-)

De gustibus...
I am addicted to Japanese cinema. I can watch six movies in a row with no problem.
But I hate dorama. I've tried to watch many of them - no luck.
The only one I liked was 青い鳥. Maybe because I like trains?
http://wiki.d-addicts.com/Aoi_Tori

It is not dorama, but 男はつらいよ Tora-san (48 movies) is very good.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tora-san
I've also liked all 座頭市, Zatōichi movies, starring 勝 新太郎, Katsu Shintarō.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zatoichi

Both of them are legends in Japan.

yes, I agree that the dramas you listed do suck. i don't know why they're popular but they suck well imo and your opinion. I think it's that you can't stand the dramas listed not that you hated all dramas but you probably won't like most dramas (at least that's how i am and it just how it is with everything... )

i have harsh standards with drama too since I watch american dramas too (i can't just drop my standards like that... )
i don't like most of them but the few that i found that i really like i really like.

they are: JIN, nobuta wo produce, hanazakari no kimi tachi e, watashitachi no kyoukasho, nodame cantabile, my boss my hero, liar game, life, mop girl

liar game is pretty good... it's like 35 minutes (fast-paced) and it's hard to predict how stuff ends... like starting from episode 3

for JIN, the first ep is sorta boring but it gets really interesting.
nobuta's first episode was okay but then it gets really intersting especially episode 4 mad eme glad i didn't drop after first ep (not that i was thinking of dropping after the first ep)

other ones i liked but i don't recommend as strongly are: gonzo, last friends, haken no hinkaku, hana yori dango, yume to ame no ato ni


but ii'm not sure if yo have the same taste but i did hate the same ones you hated.

i watch way more talk/variety shows. honma dekka, ame talk, shaebkuri, kore tte ari desuka, backshou rd theater, etc, there's so many　

<< oh to respond to someone who wrote something below here about movievs dramas or something. um i like japanese/american movies and japanese/american dramas it's just i'm picky about it because i have standadrs because i'm used to watching american dramas and movies etc so obivously i won't like a lot but if such a masterpiece exists and i happen to see it, then good for me.

for example, just from watching american dramas literally half the j-dramas just turn me off from the CAMERA WORK at one point (don't know how it is now-a-days cause i only watch a few that are worthy!! or not and then drop them ) . It just looks so cheap and just not drama-standard or the lighting is cheap etc. Just even the most basic, fundamental things I take for granted from american dramas... . even the shitty ones ( that i don't watch) have in check are more likely to be lacking with j-dramas. by all means I have been good dramas that have even fulfilled these basic criteria and much more and i was glad to watch them. but some are just... bad that they don't even fill this basic criteria. that's what i meant...

Honestly in the beginning I tried to "sympathize" with the drama and tried to lower my standards and tried to accept/like it, believing you know j-dramas are like this,. i've found from watching more dramas that there are good ones that don't do that crap or keep that crap to a minimum and i don't have to sympathize or lower my standards or cringe my way through some drama just b.c. some people who like their dramas cheesier than some greasy pizza and praise the crap out of that drama.

jorrebenst Wrote:But I'll take a look at those you all listed, some look promising. Thanks!

Good to hear!

Also, I think JDrama is like Science Fiction. When I first tried to read Scifi, I hated it. I just couldn't get into it. And then I found a book that I really liked... And then suddenly those unreadable books weren't so bad. I eventually grew to like most any of it.

I think JDrama is the same. Once you find that series that really hits the spot, you start to see the good in other JDramas, too. Some will never be watchable, but oh well.

BTW, my first JDrama was a sappy romantic one, but for some reason, I really really liked it. I don't remember it being ridiculous at all, and that helped a lot. I'm pretty sure it was 'To Heart'.

It's kinda funny, I really can't stand American TV but love Japanese drama and generally love American movies whilst I usually can't stand Japanese cinema.

Guess it's really just different strokes for different folks. Not to say that one or the other is bad in anyway.

The Scifi comparison really hits home for me.

I hated Scifi. Spaceships? Aliens? Robots? It's all just so fake, and I couldn't relate to it.
Then my friend made me watch Firefly. Maybe not the most scifiest thing ever, but it opened the doors to me. Nowadays, I've become accustomed to the conventions and things in it, and I really like it!

Japanese dramas -- YES they are cheesy and fake. I think that's why I like it! Yeah, a lot of them just plain suck... but cheesy fakeness of it is what makes it fun! That's why My Boss My Hero is so much fun! That's what makes the weird boss, and cliche "odd couple" in Kabachitare so enjoyable! You go into it with an understanding that it's going to be cheesy and cliche, and you enjoy what they do with it.
That's how it worked for me at least. GTO is what got me into it, but it's been years since I've seen it, so I don't know if I'd like it still these days.

The only drama I've enjoyed is 古畑任三郎, but only because of the cheesy appeal of the lead actor. Other than that, I agree that they're horribly fake and tend to suck hard. I think a lot of films share a lot of the same bad qualities, as well, so I'm not sure I agree about dramas and J-Cinema being worlds apart. Death Note looked like something shot on a handy-cam with volunteer actors.

Period dramas/film seem to be done consistently seriously though, but they're not as useful in terms of exposure. The last two films I watched, 容疑シャXの献身 (for some INSANE reason the kanji for シャ is turning into a /) and パプリカ (okay, it's anime), were awesome though. I guess you just have to put a bit more work into finding something you like. How many Hollywood films/dramas, in percentage terms, can you say that you actually like anyway? Have you seen some of the ones that win awards in the West?

The only drama I've found that didn't completely repulse me immediately is 相棒 (Aibou), the police drama. However, I've only watched one full episode and half of another -- the first full episode I randomly came across while watching Japanese TV and thought "wow, this has gone on for more than five minutes without some cheesy-ass lovey-dovey mumbo jumbo" and the entire episode continued with the ransom/hostage storyline and serious police stuff. It still wasn't the most professional in style/budget, but I found it to be the most palatable Japanese TV I have come across to date. As for the reality of watching the entire series... I don't know. Just my two cents -- check it out!

Well, after having quickly tried some suggestions here it seems my original view on the matter gets a bit confirmed... There is something really fundamentally different between the Japanese movies I've seen and the drama I've seen. I still get the impression I'm looking at a dream world.
I think we are talking about different types of movies though. Did anybody see some of the movies I listed in my first post? おくりびと (this is a bit of a comedy, and it won an academy award), Fish story (which is proof that I can like silly stuff), Eureka, 歩いても歩いても , Dolls (pretty much most of Takeshi Kitano's work), ... are some other movies that I really enjoyed.

Pretty funny, I started watching 青い鳥, and I thought to myself "hey this is looking really good", but guess what? It was a MOVIE with the same name, hehe. So I searched and searched and found the drama, and was a disappointed again (less then other drama though, this one seems bearable). Conclusive proof?

What I just mean is that there is always a range of quality, from unwatchable to okay to wonderful. In japanese cinema it's pretty easy to scrape out the former two categories and make a selection out of the wide range of really good movies. With drama, it seems to me pretty much EVERYTHING is in the "really, really, really bad" category. With an occasional rare "watchable" series. Strange. Good drama just doesn't seem to exist. And I mean "good" as in "the godfather is a really good movie", not "good" as in "yeah die hard 3 was a ***** good movie man".

Well... There's also a 電車男 movie

so yeah, take that...

I think if you go into it with a "This show had better prove itself to me" attitude, nothing will succeed. If you go into it thinking it'll be good, you're much more likely to have that happen.

They all have cheese. For some reason, it seems to be a staple. But some have more than others.

Watch the first 3 eps of Dragon Zakura. It's the least cheezy show I can think of. It's kind of like House MD, but he's a teacher and not so nasty. In other words, he's extremely competent and self-assure. He has a plan and doesn't screw around with it, even though everyone thinks he is.

Mr. Brain is more cheezy, but also has the same attitude... He does, however, screw around a lot when it doesn't matter.

Boss is again, a self-confident person, but a woman this time. She is in charge of some detectives and does her very best to do everything right. The main character is less cheezy than Dragon Zakura, but the other characters are cheezy on purpose.

If after watching 3 eps of Dragon Zakura and 1 each of the other 2, you still think JP TV is too cheezy, then I just can't help you.

@jorrebenst
Yes, I saw おくりびと. If you're looking for serious comedies like that, Japanese dramas are not for you.

Besides historical dramas, it's more or less standard for moments of cheesiness to be injected into even the most serious dramas. Even crime dramas don't escape this fate (imagine David Caruso in a Japanese drama!!!).

Stick with cinema.

Edit: What do you find wrong with unnaturalness? I'm not going to get into a lecture on postmodern art theory, but what's the point of using naturalness (for its own sake) as a standard of quality in an artificial medium? David Lynch purposefully makes his actors perform unnaturally. Plenty of other great directors have also ditched realism. Do you dislike their works as well?

Here's something that helps you understand Japanese TV of all kinds. They have a vocabulary specific to Japanese. American TV shows have the same sort of "unique to American TV" vocabulary but you (if you speak English) are used to them. But if you watch TV with someone who is not familiar with American TV, they will point out to you all the stupid unrealistic shit that we just let slide because that is how TV works, and we are used to it.


Even though TV Tropes is a silly site in many respects, it has some important info on this idea:
Reality is Unrealistic:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Ma...nrealistic

I think Japanese TV's just fine. A lot of people idealize American TV, especially HBO vs. non-HBO stuff (precisely for similar reasons the OP seems to dislike dorama), but I don't. To me it's all hackneyed, each in its own way. I prefer British serials and kdrama in terms of production quality and content, and rank Japanese and American stuff about equal, except Japanese stuff takes the edge, I find it more original. But I think it's mostly just experience and preference.

I'm not a big fan of postmodernism ;-)
But perhaps credibility would have been a better choice of words. おくりびと is acted pretty unnatural too, but the characters are still credible. I can still relate to them. I get the impression it's still real people I'm watching. Drama is like, uh, real life anime? I'm looking at dolls. Something non-human. Paradoxically anime is alot more credible than drama in my eyes. Kinda like the "uncanny valley": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley
Even though anime characters are waaay more abstract and non-human, they feel more human to me. I get the same feeling when looking at Indian TV/bollywood.
I don't mind laser beams, spaceships, people exploding\instant-freezing in space, cars exploding when they roll over, jumping through glass without a scratch, or whatever unrealistic stuff might occur in movies, but I do mind the specific atmosphere, as if everything were made out of plastic.
But even then, the acting disregarded, there's still the music, the filming, aesthetics, etc. If it's badly acted but the visuals are composed really well, and the audio is really good (meaning the right music\ambient sounds\fillers\etc at the right time, I'm really sensitive to audio in a movie), I can still stand it.

But yeah, I just guess drama just isn't for me. It's a shame, because drama is so much more accessible in terms of finding subs etc. God it's a pain to get japanese subs for movies. And the ones I do find are bitmaps, not text. Yay.

jorrebenst Wrote:I'm not a big fan of postmodernism ;-)
But perhaps credibility would have been a better choice of words. おくりびと is acted pretty unnatural too, but the characters are still credible. I can still relate to them. I get the impression it's still real people I'm watching. Drama is like, uh, real life anime? I'm looking at dolls. Something non-human. Paradoxically anime is alot more credible than drama in my eyes. Kinda like the "uncanny valley": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley
Even though anime characters are waaay more abstract and non-human, they feel more human to me. I get the same feeling when looking at Indian TV/bollywood.
I don't mind laser beams, spaceships, people explodingnstant-freezing in space, cars exploding when they roll over, jumping through glass without a scratch, or whatever unrealistic stuff might occur in movies, but I do mind the specific atmosphere, as if everything were made out of plastic.
But even then, the acting disregarded, there's still the music, the filming, aesthetics, etc. If it's badly acted but the visuals are composed really well, and the audio is really good (meaning the right music
mbient soundsfillers
tc at the right time, I'm really sensitive to audio in a movie), I can still stand it.

But yeah, I just guess drama just isn't for me. It's a shame, because drama is so much more accessible in terms of finding subs etc. God it's a pain to get japanese subs for movies. And the ones I do find are bitmaps, not text. Yay.

I don't agree and I think that's a very... peculiar... way of looking at dorama and anime—a Jorrebenst Effect hehe.

I think you shouldn't treat 'dorama' like it's just one thing, dictated by nationality. You'll have no fun if you generalize and exaggerate! Even the most generic arts of the world are surprisingly nuanced. Learning to 'read' them on their own terms and mixing it with your own preferences is part of the fun.