I have a strange question that's been bugging me, after someone asked me and I didn't know the answer.

In Japan, when Japanese kids are taught to write the arabic numbers they are taught a certain stroke order and way of writing it, like kanji.

Most are the same as how I (and most people I know from Western countries) would write them, but 5's and 7's are noticably different.

They are taught how to write it with the same strictness and inflexibility as the kanji, so when the kids see how I write my 7's they laugh and say it looks really strange (I put a line through the middle).

It never really bothered me until today when a friend asked me why they do this and I didn't know.

Is there any particular reason why? Was it to prevent confusion with other Japanese characters (like 7 and フ)? Or has it just accidentally developed like that, and now all Japanese are taught to write it the same way?


- In case anyone is wondering:
- 5 is usually written with the top horizontally line a bit below the top of the straight vertical line.
- 7 is usually written with a little lip on it a bit like ワ

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks

Teacher have told me that the 7 is drawn that way so it will not be confused with a 1.

All Japanese characters have a kakijun, so they expect other characters to as well and so they have been standardized over time. That includes the alphabet.

When I was young, I wrote them the way I was taught... No extra lines.

But when I got older, I realized my 7's were easier to read with a slash in the middle, and 0's (zero) with a diagonal slash. (To distinguish the number 0 and the letter O.) I also slash the middle of my Z.

So long as it's easily recognizable, there's no right or wrong way to write a letter. I wouldn't look for any deep meaning in how people write them.

wccrawford Wrote:I also slash the middle of my Z.

In Polish this could be a little confusing since we have 3 different sounds for characters based around Z (Z Ż Ź) and to some such crossed Z might be interpreted as one of the other versions causing a temporary confusion.

In school I was thought a "proper" way to write 7 with a dash in the middle but later as efficiency and speed was necessary I automatically abandoned it (along with other unnecessary visual enhancements).

But I think the small vertical lines OP is writing about is another thing called serifs and depends entirely up to you.

In Japan, when you're a teacher, you need to put a serif on 7s--it's not optional. One of the things teachers are rated on at the end of the year is their handwriting on the board, and everybody complains if you don't put serifs on your sevens. I've never seen a teacher write a 7 without a serif, and I've had co-teachers talk to me about my serif-less 7s in more than one school. And, being an English teacher, it's not like I write THAT many 7s. Anyway, now I put serifs on my sevens, haha.

You should also put serifs on sevens on any government forms or official documents in Japan.

Kids also almost always write sevens with serifs on their papers.

For what it's worth:
http://www.a-chi.jp/htj_suuji.html

I think that the writings for 5 and 7 are totally weird.
I make my 5's the same way I make my S's. And my 7's...I've never put the serif at the end!

Where are these guys getting these ideas of correct stroke order for numbers from??

Jarvik7 Wrote:All Japanese characters have a kakijun, so they expect other characters to as well and so they have been standardized over time. That includes the alphabet.

In fact, my japanese boyfriend (who lives in Germany since 7 years now) was completely baffled when I told him that there are no "correct" stroke orders (as far as I know at least) for the latin alphabet and that basically everyone writes as the fancy strikes him, which I guess is the reason for basically unreadable handwriting most of the time. He thought that you have to do the "correct stroke order" for the latin alphabet as well.

Tzadeck Wrote:In Japan, when you're a teacher, you need to put a serif on 7s--it's not optional. One of the things teachers are rated on at the end of the year is their handwriting on the board, and everybody complains if you don't put serifs on your sevens.

Wait... You're an english teacher and they force you to write something that isn't english? Fair enough when the number 7 is written in japanese text, it should be written however japanese people want to write it, but shouldn't kids learning *english* learn to recognise how actual native speakers write? I've never put a serif on a numeral in my life and we sure as hell weren't taught to do so in school. Is Australia really that different from the rest of the english speaking world?

This is pretty typical of an Australian's handwriting i think: http://font.downloadatoz.com/download/im...racter.png

Jarvik7 Wrote:All Japanese characters have a kakijun, so they expect other characters to as well and so they have been standardized over time. That includes the alphabet.

I think that's fair enough. It makes sense that romaji and numerals written in japanese be altered to match the rules of the other japanese scripts. We don't have a monopoly on Hindu-Arabic numbers and far more languages use the latin alphabet than just us english speakers.

So long as they realise that when they leave japanese behind, their rules go with it. In english, there is no such thing as stroke order. Kids *are* taught a stroke order in primary school but it's considered optional very early. More a guide to get them started than a rule. Criticising any aspect of a native speaker's use of the language, unless you are also a native speaker, is just lunacy. And if it is from a native speaker, it needs to be more than "I was told i was wrong, so i'm telling you you're wrong!".

Plenty of you probably already know this, but job applications and resumes are still usually handwritten in Japan. If you write an Arabic numeral "incorrectly" on either document, there's a good chance your file will end up in the garbage bin.

Likewise, knowing the "correct" way to write Arabic numerals is considered elementary. If someone writes a numeral "incorrectly", it's a sign of a lack of education. This is similar to when Japanese people look down on other Japanese people who use the incorrect stroke order for a kanji.

Given the discussion above, it's a good idea to learn the "correct" way to write Arabic numerals if you live or work in Japan. Even though they're studying in America, my Japanese friends here didn't hesitate to complain about how Americans write numbers "weird" when I brought up the topic. I then mentioned that Japan imported Arabic numerals after contact with the West, and that any "correct" way of writing Arabic numerals was imposed on them by society. This comment was not welcomed, haha.

Asriel Wrote:For what it's worth:
http://www.a-chi.jp/htj_suuji.html

I think that the writings for 5 and 7 are totally weird.
I make my 5's the same way I make my S's. And my 7's...I've never put the serif at the end!

Where are these guys getting these ideas of correct stroke order for numbers from??

The 5s on that site are the same way as I was taught to write them in school, and I went to a public school in Joisey.
I think 7s look tidier with serifs, and are less easy to confuse with 1s that way, but I think writing the serif downward as a separate stroke is overkill.

When I was in the JLPT this year, I had to write the number of my subscription (dont know if its this name in english... not english native here)

So I went and wrote the 7 with the stroke in the middle, a few minutes later the old lady came and said I wrote it wrong. Then she explained to the whole class that the 7 should be written without the middle stroke and even drew it in the whiteboard. She explained that the PC wouldnt be able to read it... but well, I had written wrong in the test, not in the answering paper D:

zigmonty Wrote:Wait... You're an english teacher and they force you to write something that isn't english? Fair enough when the number 7 is written in japanese text, it should be written however japanese people want to write it, but shouldn't kids learning *english* learn to recognise how actual native speakers write? I've never put a serif on a numeral in my life and we sure as hell weren't taught to do so in school. Is Australia really that different from the rest of the english speaking world?

Except that, arabic numerals aren't actually associated with English. Almost everybody uses them, and they were originally created in India (they're not really Arabic--in Arab cultures they're called Hindu numerals). The way you write arabic numerals is a difference culturally between America and Japan, but it has nothing to do with the difference between Japanese and English.

It's true that sometimes English teachers in Japan also teach about different cultures, but teaching about how different cultures write 7's differently is a waste of class time. Especially since, there are so many English speaking countries anyway, and certainly there are at least some differences in how numerals are written in each one.

So, no, I don't think there's any reason to show students how native speakers of English write their sevens.

Teachers in the United States usually write sevens with slashes through them. This is based on all of the math teachers I had in high school and college.

And no, they do not teach kids in the United States to write sevens with serifs. That's just silly.

Thanks for this, I had no idea about that...

I'd love to force the entire country to write them properly, but I think it would be wiser for me to do as they do and treat it as "translating them into Japanese". I don't mind doing it if it helps me communicate with Japanese people. [For example, when I wave "come here" to Asians, I translate that too (using the "go away" motion that they use). Nobody knows I have done anything unusual but me.]

If I ever have to teach them English, though...they'd better watch out

Aha! That`s why my wife told me that she never saw such strangely written 7s before.;-)
I really couldn`t understand what she meant, because it was perfectly standard 7 (with a middle dash) for me.

Some of the puzzles in the Professor Layton games require you to handwrite a numerical answer. No matter how many times I tried, it wouldn't read my 9. Turns out Japanese people start from the inside of the circle, like の.

Asriel Wrote:For what it's worth:
http://www.a-chi.jp/htj_suuji.html

I think that the writings for 5 and 7 are totally weird.
I make my 5's the same way I make my S's. And my 7's...I've never put the serif at the end!

Where are these guys getting these ideas of correct stroke order for numbers from??

Whoa, they also write their 0 counter-clockwise seems so odd to me.

I think that's a regional accent in handwriting. I've seen various kinds of Arabic numbers and letters of the Latin alphabet written by people from many countries. While handwriting can vary greatly from person to person even in the same region or country, you can see there are general patters. Arabic numbers and the Latin alphabet being used in a number of cultures and languages on this planet, you can find many fascinating accents in handwriting if you meet people from various areas.

I don't know why the Japanese accent in handwriting ended up looking like that. But I wouldn't be surprised if customs in kanji and kana writing have had great influence on the development.

Tzadeck Wrote:

zigmonty Wrote:Wait... You're an english teacher and they force you to write something that isn't english? Fair enough when the number 7 is written in japanese text, it should be written however japanese people want to write it, but shouldn't kids learning *english* learn to recognise how actual native speakers write? I've never put a serif on a numeral in my life and we sure as hell weren't taught to do so in school. Is Australia really that different from the rest of the english speaking world?

Except that, arabic numerals aren't actually associated with English. Almost everybody uses them, and they were originally created in India (they're not really Arabic--in Arab cultures they're called Hindu numerals). The way you write arabic numerals is a difference culturally between America and Japan, but it has nothing to do with the difference between Japanese and English.

It's true that sometimes English teachers in Japan also teach about different cultures, but teaching about how different cultures write 7's differently is a waste of class time. Especially since, there are so many English speaking countries anyway, and certainly there are at least some differences in how numerals are written in each one.

So, no, I don't think there's any reason to show students how native speakers of English write their sevens.

Well, as i said, how japanese people write numerals when writing *japanese* is up to them. But refusing to except valid english ways of writing the numerals when writing *english* is just plain silly. I'm well aware that they're not "english" numerals. But it's like a chinese person demanding japanese people write kanji the traditional way... when writing japanese. Or a japanese person using japanese kanji when writing chinese, and chastising a chinese teacher for not using accepted japanese forms. There are japanese versions of the numerals and english versions of the numerals (several versions in fact). Telling an english speaker he's writing numerals wrong in an english class is just plain silly. You might as well ditch the alphabet and write in katakana to make it easier for them.

zigmonty Wrote:Well, as i said, how japanese people write numerals when writing *japanese* is up to them. But refusing to except valid english ways of writing the numerals when writing *english* is just plain silly. I'm well aware that they're not "english" numerals. But it's like a chinese person demanding japanese people write kanji the traditional way... when writing japanese. Or a japanese person using japanese kanji when writing chinese, and chastising a chinese teacher for not using accepted japanese forms. There are japanese versions of the numerals and english versions of the numerals (several versions in fact). Telling an english speaker he's writing numerals wrong in an english class is just plain silly. You might as well ditch the alphabet and write in katakana to make it easier for them.

It's actually not very much like a Chinese person demanding that Japanese people write Kanji the traditional way. How you write kanji is directly related to a language, there's no fluffyness about it. With numbers, things are a lot more fluffy.

I think it's easy to get confused here. The vast majority of the symbols used by any given person are those of that person's language. Already in this post I've used probably around forty symbols, and all of them are words in English.

But I think it's wrong to assume that everything that is part of a writing system in a particular culture is clearly part of that culture's language. In America we see arabic numerals, roman numerals, and other random symbols. For example, we have a symbol that's a circle, with an arrow coming out of the circle pointing to the upper right. The symbol means 'male' basically, but there's not really a one to one correspondence with the word 'male'. You could say 'man', or something like that, and it wouldn't be wrong. That's because that symbol merely represents a concept, and in this case it's the gender with the smaller sex cells. You can express that concept in a lot of different ways using language (already I've mentioned three).

And, of course, that symbol is a roman one that is now used in many many countries, including Japan.

Arabic numerals are really used in mathematics, which is actually a different language than English, and it's a language that's common to both Japanese culture and American culture. You can use arabic numerals within Japanese and English sentences, but really they're representing concepts that happen to also have names in the language. The reason I was told to use serifs on my sevens was to avoid confusion, so that students could easily look at what I had written and see which concept I was trying to refer to.

Tzadeck Wrote:The reason I was told to use serifs on my sevens was to avoid confusion, so that students could easily look at what I had written and see which concept I was trying to refer to.

Which is all well and good... but aren't you an english teacher? If they get confused over a native speaker's handwriting (one attempting to write neatly!)... isn't that a problem? I mean are they learning english as written by japanese people or english as written by natives? I never claimed the japanese way of writing the numerals was wrong (and i'd probably make a point of imitating it if writing japanese in a scenario where my penmanship was being judged). I'm just saying banning teachers from using versions commonly used in english speaking countries... in an english class... seems to be missing the point just slightly.

zigmonty Wrote:

Tzadeck Wrote:The reason I was told to use serifs on my sevens was to avoid confusion, so that students could easily look at what I had written and see which concept I was trying to refer to.

Which is all well and good... but aren't you an english teacher? If they get confused over a native speaker's handwriting (one attempting to write neatly!)... isn't that a problem? I mean are they learning english as written by japanese people or english as written by natives? I never claimed the japanese way of writing the numerals was wrong (and i'd probably make a point of imitating it if writing japanese in a scenario where my penmanship was being judged). I'm just saying banning teachers from using versions commonly used in english speaking countries... in an english class... seems to be missing the point just slightly.

Well, I'm just saying that whether the way an American like myself writes a seven has anything to do with English is pretty vague. Because of that, whether it was innappropriate to tell me I should use serifs is pretty vague.

zigmonty Wrote:

Tzadeck Wrote:In Japan, when you're a teacher, you need to put a serif on 7s--it's not optional. One of the things teachers are rated on at the end of the year is their handwriting on the board, and everybody complains if you don't put serifs on your sevens.

Wait... You're an english teacher and they force you to write something that isn't english? Fair enough when the number 7 is written in japanese text, it should be written however japanese people want to write it, but shouldn't kids learning *english* learn to recognise how actual native speakers write? I've never put a serif on a numeral in my life and we sure as hell weren't taught to do so in school. Is Australia really that different from the rest of the english speaking world?

This is pretty typical of an Australian's handwriting i think: http://font.downloadatoz.com/download/im...racter.png

It's not "not English" to add serifs - there's plenty of stylistic variation in the English speaking world, and plenty of people write their 7s with a serif. If anything it's more English to use the serif, since that is the original form of the number when it came to Britain - you can see it flourished in copperplate handwritten books like this one by Jane Austen. Even more people write them with a slash (me included). I see 7s with serifs fairly often in the UK. There are loads of different ways of writing the same essential shapes, and loads of reasons to decorate them. I much prefer a differentiated 7 to a plain one which is easily mistaken for a 1.