Sometimes happens I can remember which primitives there are in a kanji and their position, but I cannot remember how to draw one of them.
For example in fog I can remember there is rain and task, I remember rain is on the top of task, I remember how to draw rain, but I don't remember task.
Do you think I should fail fog, even if the kanji I really failed is task and not fog?

Bye

Just fail it...then when it come up again it will help reinforce "task"

I usually don't fail these. My reasoning is that if that primitive just so happened to come up previously, I would know how to write it for this kanji. Being able to recall the story is more important, the primitives--for the most part--are seen so frequently you won't have trouble the next time around.

I think it's more important to first get through RTK than fuss over every detail.

@Radical_tyro: I think you're right, I'm doing the same but I wasn't sure this is the right method.

@johnzep: Maybe seeing a kanji too often and in short intervals doesn't help. It will not put the kanji in long term memory but it'll keep it in short term memory I think.

thats how repition works or something like it anyway (i think, my theory has no evidence except for my experience), you store it in short term memory so often that it becomes burned into your longterm memory

the idea is that you repeat it as little as possible to transfer kanji from your short-term to long-term memory.

Reviewing too frequently is a waste of time and it will keep things stuck in short-term memory.

However, "Leveling-up" kanji you don't know well might also be ineffiecient, because you are more likely to forget them later if they don't get crammed into long-term memory.

At least for me, I'd rather be too strict failing cards than to easy leveling them up

See, I would fail it. I'd check my story for the forgotten primative and adjust if needed. Then I'd use the following reviews to reinforce both the main kanji and the primative at the same time.

I think I've always taken the tact of being harsh on myself :|

This issue is just one reason why the ability to fail individual cards would be extremely useful.

I would (and routinely do) fail cards where I can't remember one primitive. It guarantees that at least one card with the forgotten primitive goes back into heavier rotation for a bit, and to that extent it doesn't particularly matter which specific kanji it showed up in first. If anything, I'd rather have the more complex one failed, since that'll review more things at once -- at least two primitives and their relative positions.

Personally, I've found that passing them works good enough (as long as you remember the primitive name). It doesn't take a lot of reviews to learn the strokes, and as tyro put it the primitives come up in more than one kanji. I always write the kanji while reviewing, so that may also contribute to learning the primitives.

Reviewing too frequently is a waste of time and it will keep things stuck in short-term memory.

I don't think that's true...
Although working off imaginative memory is a very quick and effective method, that doesnt mean repetition is NOT an effective method. Its how anyone learns anything that isnt through a mnemonic device. You didnt learn English by making crazy stories did you? And yet I dont think youre going to forget English any time soon.

Nevertheless, I still agree that the technique of spaced repetition is the most efficient way to get stuff from short term to long term memory. I guess it takes a bit of faith to not fill the space with repetitions...

Quote:I don't think that's true...
Although working off imaginative memory is a very quick and effective method, that doesnt mean repetition is NOT an effective method. Its how anyone learns anything that isnt through a mnemonic device. You didnt learn English by making crazy stories did you? And yet I dont think youre going to forget English any time soon.

If you wanted to learn a kanji by writing it 20 times a day and chanting the the meaning and reading, and you did that everyday for a week I'm sure it would work, but without spaced repetition I think there is a much higher chance of forgetting it when you finally run across it again after not having seen it for a month or two

I think we do learn our native language with stories. You might have remembered the word for 'fall' because of that time where your mother said she fell and it hurt a lot, or a bunch of similar situations. Linking an emotion to a concept lets you remember it very long even without repetition (people can remember specific things about a special event even 40 years later). Having a sometimes-crazy story allows one to have a certain feeling towards the kanji which helps memorize it.

You could have that story about that 'snaky taskmaster' who wanted to reform everyone, and be appalled because he's horrible. Poof, you have a certain emotion which is triggered whenever you see 改/reformation. That helps anchor it in the long term. I'm sure repetition can also do the job with spaced intervals, and sometimes it's not necessary to go all the way with stories; only I wouldn't say it's the 'natural way' of learning languages or whatever else we happen to learn.

Effective repetition is best done in a Pavlovian way. Instead of reviewing and repeating on a regular basis do it more randomly. The rewards of getting something right sometimes but not always receive a disproportionate attention by the brain and lead to longer term memorisation faster. That rewards also come in irregular intervals seems to prime the brain to study better aswell.