Hey folks, I think this one is rather easy for experienced language learners. If I want to learn a language, does this mean that I have to invest time on learning the language every day for the rest of my life? Even if it was just 10 Minutes, that would be quite frightening to me. I have the impression that this whole deal of learning a language is too big for me to ever conquer it. I don´t have a problem with learning 3 hours now, then maybe half an hour every day for a week, spicing my learning process up with some extra long learning sessions from time to time and so on, but if I think of it as a never ending thing all my motivation just gets killed! It feels like learning itself doesn´t make sense (yes, it´s crazy, but I can´t explain it to myself!) I feel like I have a "knot" in my thinking. Can anyone untie it? Thanks!
2010-12-14, 12:27 am
Think of it this way.
There has to be a reason you're learning your chosen language. If you're here, I'll assume it's Japanese, and since you're from Germany, we'll take English as a foreign language as well.
Your posts to this forum in English can be considered your 'study'.
You may have gotten into Japanese for the anime and manga, or perhaps you like the traditional literature, or maybe it's a band. If you haven't got a reason like this, find one!
You can read your manga and watch your anime or study your origami in Japanese for years to come. Any and everything you do in the future in Japanese or any other foreign language you use can be considered study. You may not do it everyday, but even one movie/dorama/manga chapter a week would do it in the future once you reach a certain point.
I find it amazing that I can still read the Noticias Culturales in one of my old Spanish textbooks long after I've stopped actively studying it and lost more of what I knew.
There has to be a reason you're learning your chosen language. If you're here, I'll assume it's Japanese, and since you're from Germany, we'll take English as a foreign language as well.
Your posts to this forum in English can be considered your 'study'.
You may have gotten into Japanese for the anime and manga, or perhaps you like the traditional literature, or maybe it's a band. If you haven't got a reason like this, find one!
You can read your manga and watch your anime or study your origami in Japanese for years to come. Any and everything you do in the future in Japanese or any other foreign language you use can be considered study. You may not do it everyday, but even one movie/dorama/manga chapter a week would do it in the future once you reach a certain point.
I find it amazing that I can still read the Noticias Culturales in one of my old Spanish textbooks long after I've stopped actively studying it and lost more of what I knew.
2010-12-14, 12:40 am
As long as you keep learning, you'll eventually be able to breeze through pretty much anything you like in your foreign language. After reaching a certain point, you don't feel like you're learning a language any more. You're just "using" the language. You might be able to reach near-native proficiency where you often forget you're using a foreign language when speaking.
If you don't use your foreign language after reaching high proficiency, that's just means you don't need the language. I mean, if you find it too much to use the language at least 10 minutes a day when it's as easy as using your mother tongue, people might wonder why you're learning it. It's not extremely hard to browse the internet for 10 minutes a day or watch several youtube videos a week, isn't it?
If your goal isn't that high, it might be more difficult to maintain your level without feeling like you're studying. But I kind of think relearning a skill you forgot is much easier than learning it from scratch regardless of the level you once achieved.
Anyway, language is the use-it-or-lose-it kind of thing. And if you don't use it, your brain will think it's unnecessary. And probably it's true.
If you don't use your foreign language after reaching high proficiency, that's just means you don't need the language. I mean, if you find it too much to use the language at least 10 minutes a day when it's as easy as using your mother tongue, people might wonder why you're learning it. It's not extremely hard to browse the internet for 10 minutes a day or watch several youtube videos a week, isn't it?
If your goal isn't that high, it might be more difficult to maintain your level without feeling like you're studying. But I kind of think relearning a skill you forgot is much easier than learning it from scratch regardless of the level you once achieved.
Anyway, language is the use-it-or-lose-it kind of thing. And if you don't use it, your brain will think it's unnecessary. And probably it's true.
Edited: 2010-12-14, 12:41 am
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2010-12-14, 6:09 am
Dairwolf Wrote:Hey folks, I think this one is rather easy for experienced language learners. If I want to learn a language, does this mean that I have to invest time on learning the language every day for the rest of my life? Even if it was just 10 Minutes, that would be quite frightening to me. I have the impression that this whole deal of learning a language is too big for me to ever conquer it. I don´t have a problem with learning 3 hours now, then maybe half an hour every day for a week, spicing my learning process up with some extra long learning sessions from time to time and so on, but if I think of it as a never ending thing all my motivation just gets killed! It feels like learning itself doesn´t make sense (yes, it´s crazy, but I can´t explain it to myself!) I feel like I have a "knot" in my thinking. Can anyone untie it? Thanks!You can quit at any time, just like any hobby. There is nothing twisting your arm to continue putting time into it.
And just like ANY other hobby, if you want to continue to be good at it, you need to continue to do it.
If you aren't using the language, and have no plans to use it, why are you learning it? Be honest with your assessment and you'll be a lot happier. Here's mine:
Japanese: I want to watch anime and read manga and books that never made it to the US. I've also found I enjoy talking to my language partner.
Spanish: There are a LOT of Spanish speakers around here. It could be very useful. I don't expect it to be much fun, though.
Irish Gaelic: What an awesome language. Almost useless, but very cool. Will be hard to practice with so few new works.
Esperanto: I started learning it because I thought it would help me learn other languages easier. Turns out I had already gotten that far in Spanish, so it's not that useful after all. I continue with it because I find it interesting and still want to learn it just to know it.
Other Languages: I have a lot of other languages that I think would be fun to know, but aren't really useful to me.
I'm currently studying Japanese and Esperanto.
I also have a LOT of other hobbies as well.
2010-12-14, 7:24 am
From my experience, languages just require getting used to it. The more you get used to it, the less you require to "learn" it. This is where the fun should come in. Language learning can't be forced onto anyone. You have to be enjoying it on your own time and then you will get better and better at it.
2010-12-24, 7:41 pm
I know exactly what you are talking about, Dairwolf, I have a bit of that fear also. Although in my case, it's more that I want to know so MANY languages that I feel in the end, even after reaching something near fluency in many languages, it's going to cost a lot of time keeping it all up (I shouldn't have anything to complain about in that regard for some time, though, since so far I'm still only (near-)fluent in two languages: Dutch (my mother tongue) and English (and I'm 22 already! Che!)). And I understand what you said about how it might almost make one feel like it makes no sense to learn at all, I think. After all, if you have to spend time on it every day anyway, you may as well spend time on it only when you use it (looking words up in the dictionary etc.) and not spend time on learning it. In the end, you hope language learning will be an investment that will pay off later (although of course this isn't necessarily just in time, but also in that it should be fun to know a language - but still).
Anyhow, the thing is that it doesn't have to be quite so bad. The way the human brain works when learning is that it requires less and less repetition over time, so in the end, theoretically, you'll be able to go through long stretches of time without doing any more studying to keep up with your language skills. Also, of course, there's what many others have said: you'll end up using a language anyway, most likely, or hearing it used by others (if you don't count that as using it, already - you're still using your knowledge of the language, at least), which will also keep it fresh in your mind.
And it's better with languages than many other kinds of knowledge, I think, in that once you reach fluency or something close to that, you'll be hard-pressed to really lose the language anymore until you reach a certain age, where unused languages (especially second languages) will tend to deteriorate... but just keep using them even then and I think you'll be reasonably safe even from that.
All in all, I wouldn't worry too much and just study freely. It's not going to be a never-ending road.
Anyhow, the thing is that it doesn't have to be quite so bad. The way the human brain works when learning is that it requires less and less repetition over time, so in the end, theoretically, you'll be able to go through long stretches of time without doing any more studying to keep up with your language skills. Also, of course, there's what many others have said: you'll end up using a language anyway, most likely, or hearing it used by others (if you don't count that as using it, already - you're still using your knowledge of the language, at least), which will also keep it fresh in your mind.
And it's better with languages than many other kinds of knowledge, I think, in that once you reach fluency or something close to that, you'll be hard-pressed to really lose the language anymore until you reach a certain age, where unused languages (especially second languages) will tend to deteriorate... but just keep using them even then and I think you'll be reasonably safe even from that.
All in all, I wouldn't worry too much and just study freely. It's not going to be a never-ending road.
2010-12-25, 2:04 am
Haha, no no, dont worry unless you have a goal to learn many languages the road ends pretty much. Take japanese for example, its no big deal tossing some words or phrases into the srs while I read a manga or play some ff8! and it feels good to srs those few new words I come across. All in all, I see a time in the near future where srs japanese will be almost completely unnecessary, and this is probably in just a year or so! That will take me to around 2 and a half years or everyday study, which isnt bad at all and Im already about ready to pass JLPT1. But in my case, portuguese and chinese await me after that, haha, because Ive become pretty addicted to this whole language learning thing after all the success I have had, but I have to just remember not to get too absorbed and neglect the maths and sciences.
I think the key thing is that at a certain point you wont conciously remember a time where you didnt spend some time in your L2, it will seem weird to go a day without it, haha, seems crazy now, but soon when you leave home and you somehow forget your L2 material you will find yourself a bit discomforted for the rest of that day till you get back to it, because after all whats gonna happen to 夜神月 now that エル is so close on his tail! You will be shaking to find out and pretty ticked off that you cant continue till you get back home.
I think the key thing is that at a certain point you wont conciously remember a time where you didnt spend some time in your L2, it will seem weird to go a day without it, haha, seems crazy now, but soon when you leave home and you somehow forget your L2 material you will find yourself a bit discomforted for the rest of that day till you get back to it, because after all whats gonna happen to 夜神月 now that エル is so close on his tail! You will be shaking to find out and pretty ticked off that you cant continue till you get back home.
Edited: 2010-12-25, 2:10 am
2010-12-25, 1:35 pm
Yonosa Wrote:Haha, no no, dont worry unless you have a goal to learn many languages the road ends pretty much. Take japanese for example, its no big deal tossing some words or phrases into the srs while I read a manga or play some ff8! and it feels good to srs those few new words I come across. All in all, I see a time in the near future where srs japanese will be almost completely unnecessary, and this is probably in just a year or so! That will take me to around 2 and a half years or everyday study, which isnt bad at all and Im already about ready to pass JLPT1. But in my case, portuguese and chinese await me after that, haha, because Ive become pretty addicted to this whole language learning thing after all the success I have had, but I have to just remember not to get too absorbed and neglect the maths and sciences.haha that's just like me. Whenever I go to school without any japanese material it just feels weird. The day will come pretty fast if one keeps going.(Fluency). It's more as you just keep doing japanese to a point where it's at the same level for what you do stuff in your native-language. I do have a few more languages I want to learn. But the next one will be mandarin Chinese. So we have english>japanese>mandarin. So far.
I think the key thing is that at a certain point you wont conciously remember a time where you didnt spend some time in your L2, it will seem weird to go a day without it, haha, seems crazy now, but soon when you leave home and you somehow forget your L2 material you will find yourself a bit discomforted for the rest of that day till you get back to it, because after all whats gonna happen to 夜神月 now that エル is so close on his tail! You will be shaking to find out and pretty ticked off that you cant continue till you get back home.
2010-12-25, 1:49 pm
I want to reply but with a more general answer.
You're mortal, I want to say that you pass your limited time on earth to lose your time : you lose time by playing, by eating, by sleeping, by studying, by working. But all those activities can be objectively judged as completely useless for the peole, the universe in the (very) long run.
So if you want, at a specific time, to study japanese in a kind of personal goal, go !! If you want to give up japanese, give up ! Do what you want and what makes you happy. This is the only duty you've got to pursue in your life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desiderata
You're mortal, I want to say that you pass your limited time on earth to lose your time : you lose time by playing, by eating, by sleeping, by studying, by working. But all those activities can be objectively judged as completely useless for the peole, the universe in the (very) long run.
So if you want, at a specific time, to study japanese in a kind of personal goal, go !! If you want to give up japanese, give up ! Do what you want and what makes you happy. This is the only duty you've got to pursue in your life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desiderata
Edited: 2010-12-25, 1:51 pm
2010-12-25, 3:16 pm
Long-term it's not really a worry. The main problem is giving up between the initial "everything is fun" stage and the stage where you can actually use the language to do what you want to do with it. I think this is where most people give up -- if you get to the point where you can just use the language, it's not that hard to keep it up if there's stuff you're interested in.
2010-12-25, 3:40 pm
I kind of agree, but I'd formulate this differently.
There are different states of "learning". The under-layer learning is the heaviest. You start by that when you learn a language. But then there are the over-layers that are just extensions. They're the easiest.
It might be a stupid analogy, but it's like you're native language. I'm about 30, and I still learn new words, new meanings, or new syntaxes (especially from young people) in my own native language. Language ability evolve constantly.
I think it's pretty much the same for foreign languages. Once you've set the core, all you have to do is "maintain" extensions, and this can even be done by input only.
So in the end, it's not "learning a language" anymore, but "doing something in the X language and picking up some stuff".
There are different states of "learning". The under-layer learning is the heaviest. You start by that when you learn a language. But then there are the over-layers that are just extensions. They're the easiest.
It might be a stupid analogy, but it's like you're native language. I'm about 30, and I still learn new words, new meanings, or new syntaxes (especially from young people) in my own native language. Language ability evolve constantly.
I think it's pretty much the same for foreign languages. Once you've set the core, all you have to do is "maintain" extensions, and this can even be done by input only.
So in the end, it's not "learning a language" anymore, but "doing something in the X language and picking up some stuff".
Edited: 2010-12-25, 3:43 pm
2010-12-26, 6:06 am
I've often compared language learning to playing a musical instrument.
Can you ever truly "master" it? Arguably or no. Even professional musicians still practice, for if they don't they may very well lose their abilities (with exceptions, of course). However, do they need to practice every day to put on a good show for friends and family? Of course not! Was it always this way? No, you have to practive every day for hours when you pick up a new instrument to sound any good at all (much depending on the instrument, of course) and if you don't you'll probably suck.
Language learning is similar. Imagine you entered the world being able to play one instrument. Of course, this instrument in its received form was raw, but through years of school, practice and usage it gradually improved. Perhaps you can never truly master this instrument, but you decide to pick up a new one. Depending on the instrument in comparison with the one you currently play, this new instrument may be easy or hard. (Dual violin/viola study is quite common. How many people that you know play both the electric guitar and the violin, though?) Maybe you'll bring this new instrument up to a level similar to your first one. Maybe you may forget your first entirely due to lack of use. Maybe you'll get discouraged and drop your second instrument at some point. In the end, though, it's good that you can at least play it. How well you can or need to play it, however, depends on what you'l use it for. Will you need it professionally, or is it just for family and friends? But, what drove you to that second instrument in the first place? If it was some random passion, I don't think there will be any problems with keeping your musical skills in good shape.
Can you ever truly "master" it? Arguably or no. Even professional musicians still practice, for if they don't they may very well lose their abilities (with exceptions, of course). However, do they need to practice every day to put on a good show for friends and family? Of course not! Was it always this way? No, you have to practive every day for hours when you pick up a new instrument to sound any good at all (much depending on the instrument, of course) and if you don't you'll probably suck.
Language learning is similar. Imagine you entered the world being able to play one instrument. Of course, this instrument in its received form was raw, but through years of school, practice and usage it gradually improved. Perhaps you can never truly master this instrument, but you decide to pick up a new one. Depending on the instrument in comparison with the one you currently play, this new instrument may be easy or hard. (Dual violin/viola study is quite common. How many people that you know play both the electric guitar and the violin, though?) Maybe you'll bring this new instrument up to a level similar to your first one. Maybe you may forget your first entirely due to lack of use. Maybe you'll get discouraged and drop your second instrument at some point. In the end, though, it's good that you can at least play it. How well you can or need to play it, however, depends on what you'l use it for. Will you need it professionally, or is it just for family and friends? But, what drove you to that second instrument in the first place? If it was some random passion, I don't think there will be any problems with keeping your musical skills in good shape.
2010-12-26, 5:22 pm
There's so many ways to play the guitar, it's probably the hardest instrument to master, don't ever compare languages to a guitar. Gosh.
2010-12-26, 5:28 pm
Jenkoi Wrote:There's so many ways to play the guitar, it's probably the hardest instrument to master, don't ever compare languages to a guitar. Gosh.I've been playing the guitar for 19 years, I think its a valid comparison. Your either trolling, or being one of those very snobby guitar players who wants to feel superior to people because they play guitar. Musical instruments and Languages look good on applications because it shows you have dedication to mastering something in your own time, that is time consuming and requires a lot of effort and self discipline. Both require constant practice and if you stop and go cold turkey no matter how good you were you will fall off. Once you reach a good level in them, they don't take as much to keep at that level, but reaching that level takes a huge effort in the first place.
2010-12-26, 9:17 pm
Gingerninja Wrote:I was just joking that's why I said "Gosh." at the end, and you're not very ginger for a ninja. But I still wouldn't use an instrument to compare to Japanese. Maybe growing a plant or tree since different elements and soils can either damage or help you along. I see Japanese as the seed and the your mind as the pot. Giving it attention and love is important.Jenkoi Wrote:There's so many ways to play the guitar, it's probably the hardest instrument to master, don't ever compare languages to a guitar. Gosh.I've been playing the guitar for 19 years, I think its a valid comparison. Your either trolling, or being one of those very snobby guitar players who wants to feel superior to people because they play guitar. Musical instruments and Languages look good on applications because it shows you have dedication to mastering something in your own time, that is time consuming and requires a lot of effort and self discipline. Both require constant practice and if you stop and go cold turkey no matter how good you were you will fall off. Once you reach a good level in them, they don't take as much to keep at that level, but reaching that level takes a huge effort in the first place.
2010-12-26, 10:38 pm
Jenkoi Wrote:I was just joking that's why I said "Gosh." at the end, and you're not very ginger for a ninja. But I still wouldn't use an instrument to compare to Japanese. Maybe growing a plant or tree since different elements and soils can either damage or help you along. I see Japanese as the seed and the your mind as the pot. Giving it attention and love is important.That's why I qualified it with.. you're either trolling...
You can ask anyone that's met me in person, I am in fact very Ginger, maybe the Ninja part could be called into question... but not the Ginger part.
I think musical instruments and languages share the same learning issues in that many people claim they "can't" do either... when in reality they haven't tried, aren't motivated to, or don't really want to in the first place. They just want the glory of both without putting in the low level grunt work. Anyone can learn a musical instrument or a language if they are willing to put in the effort, but many choose to hide behind "can't" and be lazy.
2010-12-26, 11:02 pm
@GingerNinja Dood I know exactly what your talking about and I'm a total guitar virtuoso.
My brother "wants"to learn Japanese but doesn't do anything but say that all day.
I've been learning Japanese for a long time but the reason I'm not close to my goal is because when I started I had none of the resources/knowledge I have now. I'm offering all this knowledge that I've acquired over time to my brother/friends and same thing(sick of it).
How can I help these people? I want to be a teacher so please throw me a bone.
My brother "wants"to learn Japanese but doesn't do anything but say that all day.
I've been learning Japanese for a long time but the reason I'm not close to my goal is because when I started I had none of the resources/knowledge I have now. I'm offering all this knowledge that I've acquired over time to my brother/friends and same thing(sick of it).
How can I help these people? I want to be a teacher so please throw me a bone.
2010-12-28, 1:23 am
That's the best part. They start, they give up and they start again = $$$
The FL buisness is a good one (Though a bit overpopulated).
The FL buisness is a good one (Though a bit overpopulated).
2010-12-31, 9:22 am
I totally understand where you are at right now. I'm in the "under stage", those deliciously painful early learning moments, and today I, honestly, felt like chucking in the towel. Because of this, I want to say "thanks" to everyone who posted here, I wouldn't have given in, but I would have slacked off for a few hours then felt guilty about it later, so thanks for keeping me on track!
On that "under stage" point, any tips to shorten it out? I get about 5 hours of accumulated Japanese use in per day and I envy those who can do 10 hours of reading, writing, SRSing, speaking in (passive listening is a bit too easy to include - I listen in my sleep, so 15-18 hours is a good day).
Good luck to the OP. It's sometimes painful, but keep at it. 90% of it is fun, 10% of it is just gutzing through the hard days.
P.s., I know everyone asks, but how long does it take for most people/you to get to JPLT1+?
On that "under stage" point, any tips to shorten it out? I get about 5 hours of accumulated Japanese use in per day and I envy those who can do 10 hours of reading, writing, SRSing, speaking in (passive listening is a bit too easy to include - I listen in my sleep, so 15-18 hours is a good day).
Good luck to the OP. It's sometimes painful, but keep at it. 90% of it is fun, 10% of it is just gutzing through the hard days.
P.s., I know everyone asks, but how long does it take for most people/you to get to JPLT1+?
2010-12-31, 11:31 am
Dont ever feel guilty about "slacking off", you're a human being, treat yourself like one. If you want to do some stuff in another language then do it, and enjoy yourself, try to make a compromise if you can, but if not just try to get back to what you're learning when you can, because there is a limit to taking it easy.
About the JLPT1"+", I plan to take it in December of this year, was actually going to try it this past december but missed the registration date. If I would have taken it this December I would have been at around 18 months of study, but I'm not that confident that I would have passed it yet, as I never studied directly for it. But next year I will be at about 2 and a half years of study when I tackle it, and if current trends continue, the chances that I will not pass it are very very slim. Basically at the stage your at you have to just keep plugging away, and to be honest that stage does suck some @&$, and I often wanted to do something in english during that point, and I did it. Seems like it never stopped me from achieving my goals in general, my goal being keep moving forward at a pace where I can observably read a book more fluently each month, and thats pretty easy to do. Dont beat yourself up with difficult goals, that will make you not want to do anything. Spending a lot of your time in L2 at that beginning phase is more difficult, but is necessary, but not absolutely always necessary, relax have fun, and keep at it.
About the JLPT1"+", I plan to take it in December of this year, was actually going to try it this past december but missed the registration date. If I would have taken it this December I would have been at around 18 months of study, but I'm not that confident that I would have passed it yet, as I never studied directly for it. But next year I will be at about 2 and a half years of study when I tackle it, and if current trends continue, the chances that I will not pass it are very very slim. Basically at the stage your at you have to just keep plugging away, and to be honest that stage does suck some @&$, and I often wanted to do something in english during that point, and I did it. Seems like it never stopped me from achieving my goals in general, my goal being keep moving forward at a pace where I can observably read a book more fluently each month, and thats pretty easy to do. Dont beat yourself up with difficult goals, that will make you not want to do anything. Spending a lot of your time in L2 at that beginning phase is more difficult, but is necessary, but not absolutely always necessary, relax have fun, and keep at it.