So I recently picked up RTK, found this site and I found AJATT.

My first question (of many), is why are stories hidden by default? Isn't the whole Hesig method based on remembering the story? When Hesig created the Flash cards, wasn't the story on the front of the card with the keyword?

My thing (firstly) is I have a pretty good memory... I don't EXPRESSLY need the story to be passing these tests initially. The whole idea though, is for long term memory, and when you need to be able to retain hundreds of Kanji (until it's ingrained in your memory of course). So I don't understand the whole "Don't show the story, and if you have to refer to the story, fail the card"... to me it almost defeats the purpose of the Hesig method...

[ファブリス]

The story contains the primitives, and so it is essentially the formula for writing the kanji.

After a while the stories will go away and you'll just remember the kanji. If you put the story on the front of the card, you aren't really remembering how to write the kanji. You are just supposed to think of the story in your mind, and then write the kanji.

After you get past 1000, synonyms may start to irritate you. In these cases, I put a little hint on the front of the card so I don't mix them up. For instance, I might put "NOT[story or primitive of kanji that is similar]" so that I am not putting the story or primitive of the current kanji on the front. I use Anki, so I can edit the cards. Not sure if you can do that on Reviewing the Kanji.

You'll get used to it and hopefully RTK will work well for you. Good luck!

[Katsuo]

lucidthoughts Wrote:When Hesig created the Flash cards, wasn't the story on the front of the card with the keyword?

Yes, but it was upside-down, the idea being that you first read the keyword then try to remember/write the kanji before checking your story.

ファブリス Wrote:The story contains the primitives, and so it is essentially the formula for writing the kanji.

Ok so how exactly are we supposed to utilize them? It's not shown on the front, and it's not shown on the back in the application, and no explanation is given how to utilize them. Let's say I get the card right... do I look at the story then? If not, do I just look at it when I fail? I just don't get why the story doesn't display programmatically based on what the accepted use for looking at the story would be... but yeah what if I get the card right, but the story wrong? Again I get that the story falls by the wayside, but I thought the tenet of the program was remembering the story, not the actual Kanji (because remembering the story is remembering the Kanji, at least that's what I thought).

I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just having a hard time understanding... if stories are a central tenet, why do they seem so ancillary when I'm reviewing / adding cards? Apparently Hesig put the story on the front of the card, but upside down, so I get that the story shouldn't be front & center...

What bothers me, is that people keep saying the story isn't important... then what is the point of the book? How exactly do stories come into play exactly, because to be honest it's not spelled out at all.. do I look at the story after I flip the card? Only when I get it wrong? If I forget the story but get the Kanji right, again I have good memorization, but I thought the point of the book was to remember the story... what happens when I remember the story & the kanji, then forget the story and remember that kanji (so I still pass), and then forget the kanji? I'm basically using mnemonic devices to learn the characters, but that assumes I don't forget the Kanji, so by what measure can we really say that the kanji is remembered and the story no longer important? (that question for Jishera)

Again, not trying to be difficult, I just want to start learning and it's just not clear for me at all.

Quote:Yes, but it was upside-down, the idea being that you first read the keyword then try to remember/write the kanji before checking your story.

Yeah but the story in this website isn't even show upon flip, so I'm confused as to where it actually figures in....

Apologies for having read only most of that post, but I'll explain how I find stories to be best used. When I learn a card, I make a story composing of and allowing for the recollection of the primitives. On my anki deck, the story is also hidden by default.

While reviewing, I recall the story and rebuild the kanji. If and when I fail to rebuild the kanji, I unhide the story. If I fail to recall the story but write the kanji correctly, I move on regardless (this inevitably happens, and more often towards the end). If I recall the story but rebuild the kanji wrong, I sometimes make another story.

The idea is, as in building, the story is there at first as a scaffolding of sorts for the bridge between the keyword and the kanji. once you have a strong and stable "structure" between the two mentally, the base is no longer needed, and you can just recall the kanji (I believe this analogy actually resembles some of the neurological functions in play during this learning process). Bear in mind, this is not a stage to be rushed, but achieved naturally.

Also worth noting, I'm quite sure heisig does go over this in the book.

Edit: For what it's worth, I also fail the card should I need to unhide the story.

Think of the stories are mnemonics to how to compose the kanji. You refer to the stories when you have no idea what for example "bright" is (it's 明 btw). You don't want the story to show up while reviewing cuz it's sorta like giving away the answer. Here you can understand what I mean with the story I use (thanks to the user contributions ^_^)

Bright story: *Sun* rules the day, *moon* rules the night, together they make the sky bright.

The whole point of RTK is to eventually recognize (and produce) the kanji in the wild/native material. There won't be RTK stories written on jMedia. It's just a memory cue to help you recall. I personally look (& create)at the stories when I 1st encounter said kanji,and then later when I'm struggling to recall/compose kanji. I count looking at the story for help during reviews as a fail.

I'm working on RTK also. Hopefully that helps

[EDIT] lol basically what frony0 said xD This is what happens when I post on my iPhone.

frony0 Wrote:Apologies for having read only most of that post

That's ok. I did ramble, I'm just frustrated.

Quote:On my anki deck

Any reason you use Anki over the site?

Quote:While reviewing, I recall the story and rebuild the kanji. If and when I fail to rebuild the kanji, I unhide the story. If I fail to recall the story but write the kanji correctly, I move on regardless (this inevitably happens, and more often towards the end). If I recall the story but rebuild the kanji wrong, I sometimes make another story.

Ok we're getting somewhere. So if I fail to remember, show the story. When you say you fail to recall the story but write the kanji, when you say you move on, what do you mean? I get you mean you pass yourself, but you do / do not look at the story as well?

Quote:The idea is, as in building, the story is there at first as a scaffolding of sorts for the bridge between the keyword and the kanji. once you have a strong and stable "structure" between the two mentally, the base is no longer needed, and you can just recall the kanji (I believe this analogy actually resembles some of the neurological functions in play during this learning process). Bear in mind, this is not a stage to be rushed, but achieved naturally.

I get it. This is what gets me though. We keep throwing around the idea that you **know the word**. Who says that isn't attributed to memorization? I know the first 15 kanji pretty much without the story, not that hard. From what I understood, the stories were to make long term connections... let's say I get my 15 kanji right without the story for next month... based on what I am understanding is your process, I wouldn't be looking at the story at all, aside from when I actually fill in the initial story... unless we're saying that just setting up the initial story builds a long term connection, I fail to see how stories are really being utilized if I can just brute force memorize kanji (I can't help that my brain just knows the first 15 kanji without the story, or whatever kanji it is I learn in the short term) ... I don't want to run into a situation where I realize that I didn't build a strong enough connection and just inevitably be failing Kanji down the road because I created a story then ignored it because I got the Kanji right at the time anyway. I don't get the disparity between this supposed "long term connection" I'm building with these stories, and the fact that I could just as easily get them right and not have to refer to the story at all.

Quote:Also worth noting, I'm quite sure heisig does go over this in the book.

He hasn't covered it yet (I don't think), so I don't know. I think it would be ill-conceived if I just start taking down stories and brute forcing these kanji whether I remember the story or not.

RawrPk Wrote:personally look (& create)at the stories when I 1st encounter said kanji,and then later when I'm struggling to recall/compose kanji. I count looking at the story for help during reviews as a fail.

Ok this is basically the advice I've been looking for... the stories are for initial use, if I remember a given kanji through the course then generally speaking the goal is accomplished for long term retainment (somewhat), and the story at that point doesn't matter... if I don't remember it through the course, then the SRS kicks in to make the story will pop up again (to make the connection)... and if I continue to do SRS reviews after RTK, then in this paragraph substitute mentions of "the course" for "present time".

Thanks man, makes sense now.

lucidthoughts Wrote:Any reason you use Anki over the site?

None specific. Primarily because I used Anki before I came across this site, and even started learning Japanese. I prefer it now due to better mobile support and in my opinion a better / more flexible scheduling algorithm.

Quote:Ok we're getting somewhere. So if I fail to remember, show the story. When you say you fail to recall the story but write the kanji, when you say you move on, what do you mean? I get you mean you pass yourself, but you do / do not look at the story as well?

By the time you get to that stage (which should take a while), the story should be immaterial anyway, so looking at it again is usually pointless. If you do feel you only recalled the kanji by luck or circumstance, it may be an idea to anyway. (Consider the kanji for "one". I'm confident you don't need a story to remember that)

Quote:I get it. This is what gets me though. We keep throwing around the idea that you **know the word**. Who says that isn't attributed to memorization? I know the first 15 kanji pretty much without the story, not that hard. From what I understood, the stories were to make long term connections... let's say I get my 15 kanji right without the story for next month... based on what I am understanding is your process, I wouldn't be looking at the story at all, aside from when I actually fill in the initial story... unless we're saying that just setting up the initial story builds a long term connection, I fail to see how stories are really being utilized if I can just brute force memorize kanji (I can't help that my brain just knows the first 15 kanji without the story, or whatever kanji it is I learn in the short term) ... I don't want to run into a situation where I realize that I didn't build a strong enough connection and just inevitably be failing Kanji down the road because I created a story then ignored it because I got the Kanji right at the time anyway. I don't get the disparity between this supposed "long term connection" I'm building with these stories, and the fact that I could just as easily get them right and not have to refer to the story at all.

The first 15 kanji are memorable for several reasons; they are the first kanji you come across, they are very graphically simple and derivable, and they are used repetitively in the rest of the book as primitives. I wouldn't worry about those.

The reason for which brute forcing is discouraged is the same reason this book exists. You will find that if you do brute force, you will forget the kanji later on. If you use the story method, not only will the memory be considerably stronger (for reasons I don't understand myself) but you will also have a crutch to fall on in the case that you forget the image itself.

So yes, as you said yourself, they are there only for initial use (and if you forget the kanji again) until you reach that stage where you can "freestyle".

Quote:He hasn't covered it yet

My bad. I only skim through the long texts.

You can brute force 15 kanji. You can brute force kanji when they're easy, pictograms and/or traditional radicals (hand, sun, water...). You can maybe brute force 500 kanji (with a lot of effort/pain), but after that, memory comes to something like a stall. The point of Heisig is to show that using stories, you create another kind of memory that is quicker and easier to form, to consciently access, and is maybe more long term than brute force, and for a bigger number of kanji (3000+).

When we say it's okay to forget a story, it's because ultimately, the kanji strokes merge into a single unit. When I want to write "sand", I don't think about writing s-a-n-d, I just think about writing "sand". It's the same for kanji. Let's take tiger 虎. At first, your story is like "an oracle tribe that deciphers the future from the pelt of the dicing-claw tiger, and walk on their legs to follow it". That's the s-a-n-d process. But at some point, you stop thinking about that, and just start writing "tiger" without thinking about the story (once you really know the kanji), especially when you want to write compounds like 虎斑.

I agree with most of what all of you are saying, although, even though it's fine to hide the story, I think it's better to crutch on it completely at first, "Lazy Kanji"-style.

A story might be: The ________ man's TOP HAT was forevermore hung on the HOOK.

It doesn't give away the keyword or kanji, just the elements/primitives. Then you can write the kanji. Obviously, eventually, the same thing happens that a lot of you are describing. You give a quick glance at the story, or you don't even really take the primitives into account and you're just like, "Oh, this is -deceased- and it should be written like so: 亡"

And you can eventually just remove the story from the front of the card and just put the keyword, if you wish. But trying to guess the keyword and kanji both is not only more fun, imo, but you also are really thinking about those 2 parts and your clues are the primitives. So it's forcing you to think in terms of primitives that way when you encounter a kanji, you see the primitives and remember the story and know what it is (unless it's really easy or the story's already become superfluous for you).

The advantage over the method you all are describing is that it really points out the primitives and that you're not just left seeing "paulownia tree" and not having any idea how to get to writing the kanji without looking at the story (at least in the early stages -- obviously you ideally would want to be able to go keyword to kanji and visa-versa with no trouble).