Danieldesu, from your comments I think you would like 2001KO.

Actually in the beginning the number of new kanji introduced per sentence is steeper, but gets progressively lower, for example the first 300 sentences introduce over 450 kanji (so on average 1.5 kanji per sentence) while from 300 to 400 there are about 50 kanji introduced, (so on average 0.5 kanji per sentence) in other words by that point the cost per new sentence, and by extension the cost per new compound, is less than a third of what it was earlier.

I've been using MeCab to parse my Anki questions and produce a list of all the vocab used, to keep track of how much I am learning. Its an inconvenient manual process right now, but I was thinking to add something directly in Anki that does that.

For me vocab is the main thing I want to develop. I think like you say, the grammar is not so hard to get once you can understand the vocab. When I watch Anime, in the sentences that have 50%+ unknown vocab I feel like I can't learn anything, whereas in the entences where I get most of the vocab but there's some grammar that is a little beyond me, I feel like I am learning.

Ok so I've just started sentence mining and am just wondering about a couple of things about what other people put in their notes.

1: Do you say what kind of word something is... e.g. noun, i-adj, na-adj etc.
2: If you have a particular inflection of a verb, do you represent it also in its dictionary form.

Thanks,

Sam

Put whatever you think you need.
I rarely put the kind of word anymore as it's fairly obvious to me, but if you think you might get things mixed up put it in.
For new verbs I'll put the dictionary form in the answer, but other than that I don't bother.

My tip is to do your SRS through Anki's online interface, and use Firefox+RikaiChan when you need to look up that kind of detail for a certain word. It's more convenient and beneficial to just be able to hover the mouse over a word while you're reading if you need a reminder of how to read it, or if its a noun, i-adj, na-adj, suffix, counter, etc.

99 times out of 100 reviews I don't even read the Answer part of the cards.

Thanks for the replies. A great idea vosmiura. After a bit more sentence mining I have another question...

Many of the sentences I add are a without subject (which is often 'I' but dropped). Will this cause me any confusion at a later stage of reviewing.

Thanks,

Sam

You'll find that a LOT of sentences don't include I, you, he, she...

welcome to Japanese!

it won't confuse you later, you'll get used to it.

When you read those sentences just make up whatever pronouns or genders you like. Its not a big problem.

Yeah, it seems strange to loose the subjects all the time, but if you think about how we use 'it' in English it's kinda the same. We replace things with 'it' the Japanese just drop it. Obviously in isolated sentences it's strange, just like if I wrote.

It's in the bag.

You'd have no idea what 'it' is. But, you'd assume that in context you would know. Japanese is the same.

It's actually quite simple and efficient compared to the English usage of pronouns. And English is itself quite simple in its use of pronouns. When you add noun genders or even accusative/dative inflections like in German it becomes quite a mess.

Cool. Thanks for the responses everyone.

Sam

So I was re-reading AJATT, and I totally missed that Khatz and others have been changing up how they do their sentence reviews, from just plain kanji -> recognition to kana readings (no kanji)-> writing out the sentence with all the kanji + grokking it all.

It sounds great to me, because I get how that's supposed to work. (Even though it's going to take more work and kill more trees.) I just have a few questions about the implementation of that, since I've already got ~800 sentences in Anki already using the standard model. (You know, the one where you put your sentence up top with kanji, then your answer in the middle, and it autotranslates to kana in the bottom.)

This is sort of a mixed Anki/AJATT question, but I figured I'd stick it here because some people may not keep up with the site that often. (Like me... who totally missed that.)

So, other than manually changing everything, is there a quick and dirty way to switch things around so my kana readings become the main cards?

Also, since I'm scanning/OCRing to speed things up, is there a way to still use Anki's ability to convert kanji to kana to save time retyping the sentences' kana?

Also, will I have to create a new database/card deck to make all the modifications to go from kanji-> recog to kana->recog? I'd like to have a nice mix of reading to recognize and kana-> producing kanji, so I can get the effect from both.

There is a quick and clean way to switch in Anki. Just go to Model Properties>Card tab and you will see the prototype for a card, with its question side and answer side. The things like "%(Expression)s" and "%(Reading)s" correspond to the different fields when entering a new card. So if you put "%(Reading)s" in the question field and "%(Expression)s" in the answer field you're done.

Yeah that s the main asset of anki.... On the contrary to the other SRS you don t records cards but facts.... This is great because it means you can change your cards in a blink of en eye or add new cards for the same fact....
That's where khatzu himself is outdated.... He has been working with supermemo for too long.... and his own SRS (khatzumemo) is just a a variation of supermemo simpler and quicker but a variation still ..... Anki is built on a brand new conception.

In his post about his change of method khatzu acknowledged himself the limit of khatzumemo/supermemo as he can't change anything now : he has 30000 cards done this way.... Except he's wrong again : he could export his database under a mnemozine file or a txt file and then import it in anki .... So it's a piece of cake... The only drawback of this tip is that you lose all your stats datas.... But I think it's worth the price.Especially since advocaters of SRS are walking an endless path : when you're through with japanese it can be chinese or law or biology or anything else.... And the old generation of SRS has no future. So it's a wise investment for the future whatever the immediate price may be . The more time you take to make up your mind the more painful it is to change....

Thanks for the tips, guys-- you saved me a lot of trouble.

Unlike RTK, though, I think I'll skip the brush pen for sentences and stick to a pencil. Lots of writing ahead, but I think it'll be worth it.

Oh by the way contrary to Khatzu as you you can cash in on Anki you can use both his old way of reviewing (kanji to kana : which would be recognition for anki) and his new way of reviewing (kana to kanji : production) .No need to subsitute your orld cards for the new approach : just add cards for production . That's what I do and I have no reason to complain. Both approach are interesting.
I just love Anki.... I just wish it were a little more stable.....

ghinzdra Wrote:Oh by the way contrary to Khatzu as you you can cash in on Anki you can use both his old way of reviewing (kanji to kana : which would be recognition for anki) and his new way of reviewing (kana to kanji : production) .No need to subsitute your orld cards for the new approach : just add cards for production . That's what I do and I have no reason to complain. Both approach are interesting.
I just love Anki.... I just wish it were a little more stable.....

I've found the production cards really useful. I see a lot of people foregoing them completely, but I never can really recall a word easily until I've gone over it in production cards a few times.

Regarding using production cards I have one concern, not with the concept but with its practical implementation.

Often I find that when I add sentences they might use either kanji or hirigana for the same term. For example I have sentences with 私 and わたし. That example poses me no problem but for some sentences I might write the kanji only to find that in the answer ,that kanji is written with hiragana. If I am not very familiar with it I might think I've made a mistake when I haven't or vice versa. How do you know for sure whether the answer you give is correct?

-Sam

I don't really get you problem.
Are you worried about the relevance of writing the kanji or not ?
If it's the case then relax : there aren't any rules.... You can write everything in kanji or write everything in hiragana .... The bulk of the japanese population use kanji in moderate amount : they do use the kanji for watashi but for instance they barely use go and o prefixes of honorabilty 御 . Same thing for goro 頃 and there are lot of them .時 is used for hours ,etc... but rarely for toki . 居 is also used but not really for iru .Same thing for為 and suru .... The list is endless and you'll learn their real use by reading real japenese... Actually overusing kanji is often depicted in manga as a snobbish behaviour for instance character who alleges to be an intellectual.Newspaper and racy writers are also known for using a lot more than usual.

If you want an advice
- when you want to be understood by japanese just think about : how do it look ? if your paper looks like a chinese message you d'better cool off....
- when you are reviewing use as much kanji as you can : it's not about being understood or being the quickest possible but about learning as much as you can.

so if your SRS don't depict kanji and you still write it it's fine . The more the better!

cracky Wrote:

ghinzdra Wrote:Oh by the way contrary to Khatzu as you you can cash in on Anki you can use both his old way of reviewing (kanji to kana : which would be recognition for anki) and his new way of reviewing (kana to kanji : production) .No need to subsitute your orld cards for the new approach : just add cards for production . That's what I do and I have no reason to complain. Both approach are interesting.
I just love Anki.... I just wish it were a little more stable.....

I've found the production cards really useful. I see a lot of people foregoing them completely, but I never can really recall a word easily until I've gone over it in production cards a few times.

I do think that production is "relatively" better than recognition for the same reason that Heisig.... Nevertheless having both approaches is even better .... Anyway it doesn't hurt especially since you're supposed to already know the fact : if you really know it then you should be able to do it the both way.... Otherwise it points out that the production isn't totally efficient by itself.

Thanks ghinzdra

I'll give production cards a try then.

-Sam

I do both production and recognition for Sentences and Heisig Keywords. For sentences, I use Anki. For Heisig Keywords, I'm using RevTK (naturally keyword to kanji) and Anki for kanji to keyword.

There's a definate benefit. One, Anki will space the cards attached to same facts far enough apart to prevent pollution. Two, it helps you see if your weakness was pronunciation of the kanji (reading), or recognition of the context (production).

Yes, it's weird that it seems I read better in Japanese than I speak now. That was not happening prior to the switch to production and recognition.

One thing you can do-- use the underline function to underline all of the kanji in the original sentence... it'll go over to the reading side, too, so you'll know to convert underlined kana into kanji. It's not the best way to do it, because it's sort of cheating, but you could at least do that for a while until you get the feel for it.

I'm a bit weary on this sentence method, it seems like it wouldn't work well.
Does anyone have decks premade preferably with anki?

why don't you add some expressions as you encounter them, and try it yourself? using other people's sentences is not a good idea - you lack the context the sentences are found in that way, which makes the sentences less meaningful and consequently harder to remember

raseru
Once the technical problem (what kind of cards is the most efficient with me ?which SRS fulfill my need ? what do I want to revise with my SRS? etc...) has been cleared then the content problem is the last and the real jump....I had still the same problem 2 weeks ago....Even with mangas I knew sometimes it was hard....
Why don't you give a shot to Kanji Odyssey 2001? On the condition you already mastered RTK it's awesome ....
-You review all the joho kanji progressively (except for the new yomikata you're studying, you use mainly the kanji covered in the previous lesson) covering all the usual yomikata,
-there are 3 sentence for each kanji ,
-the sentence are simple (if you're around JLPT 3) ,
-there are translations ,
-on top of that each book is designed for a true efficiency : the 555 kanjis of the 1st books cover 60-70% of the vocabulary and yomikata that a document written in japenese is likely to use , with the 555 kanjis of the 2nd you're able to read 90% the last 890 are tackled in the last book as they count only for 10%

2 kanjis

for the kanji 上 41
今日の新聞はあのテーブルの上にある。 上 うえ above
先月ガス代が上がった。今月は電気代が５％以上上がるらしい。 以上 いじょう more than ,over ,that's all
スミスさんは日本語の上級クラスで勉強している。日本語がとても上手。 上級 じょうきゅう advanced high rank high level

for the kanji 本 51
日本の文化についての本を読んだ。わたしの国の文化と違うので面白かった。 本 ほん book
このドレスには本物ダイタが１００個以上使われている。 本物 ほんもの genuine,authentic,real
今日本語の基本的な文法と会話を勉強している。 基本的な きほんてきな basic


Now I think of RTK-AJATT-KO2001 as a bundle .It really seems like the 3 of them have been designed to work together .


If it's not enough
-try to read a manga you already read in english
-in last resort : review list of vocabulary pick up in your handbook and search sentences for EACH word in your dictionnary :
electronic dictionnary or paper dictionnary , the latter is more time consuming but if it's a dictionnary with furigana like challenge dictionnary advised by khatzu then it's worth to try it . (It' ll make you revise your japanese alphabet)
Otherwise if you find too boring to type all this stuff in your SRS then there are the on-line dictionnary.
Through excite you have a free access to the kenkyusha dictionnary http://www.excite.co.jp/dictionary/

ACL is nice as it has a HUGE database of sentences coming from various document
BUt you should REALLY beware of some sentences.... I asked to one of my japanese teachers to check it and she acknowledged some of those sentences were strange .... Try to stick to simple expression : verbe + noun for instance
Otherwise the sentences extracted by ACL from news are very likely to be correct.
On the contrary avoid sentences extracted from casual online discussion . It seems they're not written by japanese ....
http://www.alc.co.jp/index.html