Tefhel Wrote:I agree with that - since I began lurking here I've certainly noticed there are a number of users with high post counts whose opinions/'methods' are *always* right, and they often state them in a rude manner (and god forbid should anyone disagree). It certainly makes me not want to participate, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Reading your post and thinking of the amount of views compared to the amount of replies threads in general have on this forum makes me believe you're really on to something here.

This place has so much potential to be more active, yet you only see the same established base of posters everywhere Maybe we'd be better off without post counts? Other forums without it do just fine and they still have their top users.

TwoMoreCharacters Wrote:Reading your post and thinking of the amount of views compared to the amount of replies threads in general have on this forum makes me believe you're really on to something here.

This place has so much potential to be more active, yet you only see the same established base of posters everywhere Maybe we'd be better off without post counts? Other forums without it do just fine and they still have their top users.

being more active isn't necessarily a good thing.

i've noticed that when it comes to learning anything, being quiet and absorbing everything first is more much important than discussion.

i used to post actively on forums for competitive gaming (shoryuken/tekken zaibatsu) but i spent more time posting than gaming, so people who hardly posted but practiced and studied became better than me. the best players hardly if ever posted.

high view counts is a good thing. =)

[ファブリス]

@TwoMoreCharacters: I'm not against hiding post counts, but will this really improve anything? I sincerely hope our highest post count members don't look at their post count as meaningful in any way... maybe I am wrong.

I think you should remove it.

kainzero Wrote:

TwoMoreCharacters Wrote:Reading your post and thinking of the amount of views compared to the amount of replies threads in general have on this forum makes me believe you're really on to something here.

This place has so much potential to be more active, yet you only see the same established base of posters everywhere Maybe we'd be better off without post counts? Other forums without it do just fine and they still have their top users.

being more active isn't necessarily a good thing.

i've noticed that when it comes to learning anything, being quiet and absorbing everything first is more much important than discussion.

i used to post actively on forums for competitive gaming (shoryuken/tekken zaibatsu) but i spent more time posting than gaming, so people who hardly posted but practiced and studied became better than me. the best players hardly if ever posted.

high view counts is a good thing. =)

Of course. While this place has some invaluable tips and ideas, you don't learn much Japanese here. What I wish for is more of a variety among the posters, for those who lurk to come out of their "hiding" (no such thing, but let's be a little bold) and make this forum more active in the simple sense that there'd be more different faces to see from time to time.

Instead of having more people become as active as our regulars, if there were just a lot more people posting anything in general, doesn't have to be all the time, these forums would be more lively, and thus more "active".

ファブリス Wrote:@TwoMoreCharacters: I'm not against hiding post counts, but will this really improve anything? I sincerely hope our highest post count members don't look at their post count as meaningful in any way... maybe I am wrong.

I don't know, it was just a thought. But I do know a few other forums with post counts that have assumed some sort of hierarchy among the posters, with big post counts symbolizing big e-penises. Another forum I frequent doesn't have them, and while there still are respected top users there's still a big variety of posters. They generally aren't as afraid to open their mouths when they don't need to, or post meaningless stuff, which I think encourages posting in general. But that forum is pretty big, so there's a more anonymous setting I guess.

Our forums do have some long time contributors who shouldn't be disrespected though, a high post count doesn't have to signify some sort of authority, but rather give these users some credit. But I don't know, I might just be over-thinking things.

does a ban mean you're banned from your stories too? 全くthat would be a nuclear option... my kanji deck links here and would be 潰れちゃった...

Jarvik7 Wrote:Tsundere would also imply that we are alternating between showering praise and criticizing. Tsudere does not mean "secretly love", though many characters who are secretly in love are also tsundere.

I guess that misunderstanding demonstrates a problem with a study method that omits them thar book lernin' for anime

also fyi, ツンデレ doesn't stricly mean alternating (in usual the sense of a plurality of alternations) between coldness and warmth... but rather that while in the beginning you are acting prickly... you inevitably are moving towards showing love for that person:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%84%E...7%E3%83%AC
I guess this misunderstanding demonstrates the problem with insufficiently absorbing native media ;D

who ever said these threads weren't educational??

[ファブリス]

dtcamero Wrote:does a ban mean you're banned from your stories too? 全くthat would be a nuclear option... my kanji deck links here and would be 潰れちゃった...

No. While the main site and forum accounts are registered at the same time (for simplicity's sake), they are separate.

dtcamero Wrote:[
also fyi, ツンデレ doesn't stricly mean alternating (in usual the sense of a plurality of alternations) between coldness and warmth... but rather that while in the beginning you are acting prickly... you inevitably are moving towards showing love for that person:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%84%E...7%E3%83%AC
I guess this misunderstanding demonstrates the problem with insufficiently absorbing native media ;D

Yeah, that is the original meaning in otaku circles, but it is no longer the most common meaning since entering the general lexicon, much to the chagrin of some otaku. In any case, neither definition means secretly love/obsess over and I don't think any of the "haters" have warmed up to khatz over time

Anyone notice the bright sunny day outside in Fabrice's photo above? I had just finished reading a NYT review of a book about self control: WILLPOWER Rediscovering the Greatest Human Strength. The reviewer (steven pinker) ends with:

Quote:And now that I’ve finished this review, I can turn my e-mail back on, spend no more than 30 minutes replying and go out to enjoy this late summer day.

I'm kind of curious what this book has to say and how it might relate to language learning. (Not a fan of evolutionary psychology, but it sounds like there's other interested bits in there.) I find there are some very contradictory messages at ajatt.com regarding willpower/dedication/self control. (thread topic)

Well, it's hot and sunny where I am. Eagles, seals, deer, bears, whales and the occasional cougar not far from my window. Time to put on a bikini and go play on the beach. :-)

But before I sign off...

Maybe "ban" could be "time-out"? (as in sports, not child discipline) ;p

I also wanted to add that nest0r has spent an extraordinary amount of time researching and contributing stuff to the forum. For anyone interested in the theory behind what we talk about and do, this contribution is invaluable. Their recent efforts to flesh out the wiki and encourage others to participate are also commendable. And users of the various amazing tools created here have benefited from Nest0r's brainstorming, encouragement and testing.

While I respect nest0r's willingness to confront perceived unfairness and other transgressions (and appreciate the wit of some retorts), I hope for their peace of mind (and thread direction) that they'll stop feeling compelled to respond strongly. Usually people just dig their heels in deeper. It fuels rather than subdues.

(I do support nest0r and others who have pointed out that "faggot humour" isn't cool. That's something from ajatt I don't think we need here.) (thread topic)

Hopefully nest0r won't feel put off by this 'time out' and stop participating in the forum. The forum would lose a generous contributor. [Deleting nest0r (which also deletes all posts) would be throwing out a lot of research.] I regret that the thread I started got both sides riled up.

(btw, I've never understood why post count exists.)

editin [ ] ... and Tzadeck's awesome.

I am all for banning nest0r!! Three months would be great if possible. This gives me plenty of time to catch up with reading everything said person has posted ... Links, websites, theories, discoveries ... This is why I hate the nest0r! He has always something interesting to read, and with my sometimes jelly-like will to resist to take my sweet time to read it, instead of continuing to learn, this makes it even worse. So, again, I am all for banning nest0r for a while. :evil:

ほんの冗談のつもりだったんですよ。

To get back to the topic AJATT, it is sad that instead of what began as an interesting discussion, ended in a fight and possible bans. And still, those lost souls are signing up at Silverspoon, unaware of what they are getting themselves into.

As for post-counts, no need to have them there, visible for the whole world. In a Community I was a long time member of we had the option to simply turn of the visibility of the post-count. But there was still the option to have them as personal stats. Maybe something like that is possible here, too?

Nagareboshi Wrote:And still, those lost souls are signing up at Silverspoon, unaware of what they are getting themselves into.

This is the mistake you keep making. You assume the people who are signing up for SilverSpoon are lost, stupid, or somehow being forced into slavery. Yet the truth is pretty much the complete opposite. People are paying for a service and getting a lot out of it.

Have you not yet noticed that everyone who posts here and has also signed up for SilverSpoon loves the service? You have managed to chase away most of us, but the personal insults are amusing to guys like me and dtcamaero so don't expect your insults to chase us all away.

It won't work.

(Yes, I will continue to point out how childish and low class these personal attacks are as long as Fabrice continues to let them be posted.)

tokyostyle Wrote:

Nagareboshi Wrote:And still, those lost souls are signing up at Silverspoon, unaware of what they are getting themselves into.

This is the mistake you keep making. You assume the people who are signing up for SilverSpoon are lost, stupid, or somehow being forced into slavery. Yet the truth is pretty much the complete opposite. People are paying for a service and getting a lot out of it.

Have you not yet noticed that everyone who posts here and has also signed up for SilverSpoon loves the service? You have managed to chase away most of us, but the personal insults are amusing to guys like me and dtcamaero so don't expect your insults to chase us all away.

It won't work.

(Yes, I will continue to point out how childish and low class these personal attacks are as long as Fabrice continues to let them be posted.)

Touché. The truth is, I don't make a mistake, as this was in no way a comment for / against SilverSpoon, those who are signing up, or those who like them. This was just a very short summary of the events and how things stand now. If you read my few previous postings in the other, and now closed topic, you might eventually notice that I don't take this serious at all. :-)

I just thought the discussion was interesting up to a certain point. When the fighting started: "I am correct, you are in the wrong, if you do this - you are stupid, and you are wrong just because ..." only leads to bad blood on both sides. Or accusations, such as yours, who think that everything that is posted is an insult to people who decided to buy this product.

Again: This was a summary - not an insult. Because I thought that this is the goal of the previous discussion now closed. To warn people of how bad SilverSpoon is, what a waste of money it is, and so what else has been said in the other discussion.

Edit: All I can offer is my sincere apology, if you or anyone else felt insulted by this comment. If you still insist that this was an insult, there is nothing else I can do to convince you, that it was not.

Edit2: I agree, it is childish. But keep on going doesn't make it any better. This must be obvious to the last defender or offender on both sides.

Edit3: I can even understand why you see this as yet another unjust attack against the product or those who signed up. No wonder, reading through a few pages, but again this was not meant as an attack. And this was my final Edit. ~_~

i have this point-counterpoint going on in my head and am not sure which side wins...

the first point is that ss people are paying a significant amount of money for a thing, and are obviously going to be upset if you say that thing is something bad (even if you're not saying that they are something bad)... and emotions will be involved. this should be obvious.

if you think it is scammy, there are ways to say that it might be a scam without hurting the feelings of the person who invested their money. "what about these issues...?" instead of trolling.

the counterpoint is that the internet is simply full of trolls (they are a large part of what makes it fun and funny) and one should be aware of this when saying something sincere. trolls here are better than most in that their goal is usually humor, not to offend... however here and elsewhere online, emotional vulnerability ought to be cautioned against. getting offended on the internet means that the terrorists win XD.

i think the bottom line is that we could chill out a little re the emotional stuff, on both sides of the argument... and also that if you've got some beef dear god at least make it funny.

i really don't know how anyone can argue with nest0r. i can't understand her enough to know what she's saying, let alone argue. =)

as for post counts i'm really unaware of people using them for anything. if anything i view it more as a personal thing, like "yay, i made my 500th post" instead of "i have 500 posts, i'm cooler than you."
if anything join date is more often used to establish superiority.

@thora: thanks for the link to the review. seems like an interesting book, i'll go buy it now. =)

@kainzero

I agree completely. An early join date is everything. Having contributed fascinating analysis like Jarvik7, or links to worthwhile research like nest0r are insignificant. Having joined a long time ago and and lurked on and off for years makes me far superior to both </sarcasm>

:-)

cjon256

cjon256 Wrote:@kainzero

I agree completely. An early join date is everything. Having contributed fascinating analysis like Jarvik7, or links to worthwhile research like nest0r are insignificant. Having joined a long time ago and and lurked on and off for years makes me far superior to both </sarcasm>

:-)

cjon256

on other boards there's usually some significant event that divides the generations, and then everyone from "back then" says they're way cooler than everyone "now."

it would be like if this board had a tight community and then AJATT debuted, and then you have all the pre-AJATT people making fun of the post-AJATT people for join date.

yea it's pretty dumb but that's internet society (and angsty teenagers) for you.

dtcamero Wrote:the first point is that ss people are paying a significant amount of money for a thing

The only problem is that people paying for SS don't consider it a significant amount of money. I pay 200yen a day for it. I guess maybe I could enjoy an extra Aquarias every day or even most of a HUB happy hour cocktail ... but ultimately I don't miss the money. The current price is 500yen a day. How is this a significant amount of money?

What I wish I had back is the $2500 I spent on one semester of tuition to learn a few hundred kanji, a few grammar points, and some vocab. I'm still pretty bitter about that. Way more bitter than anyone in the world is about Khatzu making some money.

(Important Note: If you think the cost of SS is significant do not even consider signing up. It is not for you.)

tokyostyle Wrote:

dtcamero Wrote:the first point is that ss people are paying a significant amount of money for a thing

The only problem is that people paying for SS don't consider it a significant amount of money. I pay 200yen a day for it. I guess maybe I could enjoy an extra Aquarias every day or even most of a HUB happy hour cocktail ... but ultimately I don't miss the money. The current price is 500yen a day. How is this a significant amount of money?

a lot of sales tactics often use "just $x a day," "just 5 easy payments of $x!" in order to minimize the initial shock. a lot of our expenditures aren't calculated daily but in lump sums so you need to look at the total cost.

$5 a day over the course of a year is $1825. the roth IRA limit is $5000 so you're already a fourth of the way there. i can take a vacation in japan on $1825, make a down payment on a car in 2 years, etc.

now i'm not saying that SS is bad value (eye of the beholder, blah blah), but that it is a significant cost when you add it up over time and not look at it per day.

tokyostyle Wrote:

dtcamero Wrote:the first point is that ss people are paying a significant amount of money for a thing

The only problem is that people paying for SS don't consider it a significant amount of money. I pay 200yen a day for it. I guess maybe I could enjoy an extra Aquarias every day or even most of a HUB happy hour cocktail ... but ultimately I don't miss the money. The current price is 500yen a day. How is this a significant amount of money?

What I wish I had back is the $2500 I spent on one semester of tuition to learn a few hundred kanji, a few grammar points, and some vocab. I'm still pretty bitter about that. Way more bitter than anyone in the world is about Khatzu making some money.

(Important Note: If you think the cost of SS is significant do not even consider signing up. It is not for you.)

This 2500 times

Its not like you're paying *downloading* for all the materials anyway. I'd rather pay that kind of money to reach at least a high reading level. Conversational skill won't improve greatly until you visit Japan anyway, I think this is a great deal. Do you remember if your parents gave you money for pizza everyday for school (unless you're a free lunch eater)? Do you know how much that adds up to everyday for the school year? How about grocery's if you live alone; milk,bread, cereal...oh,how about fast food? It piles up without you noticing! SS payment is nothing.

I thought we were supposed to stop discussing the merits of AJATT? It's not okay just because you have a more positive opinion of it than some others.

Tzadeck Wrote:I thought we were supposed to stop discussing the merits of AJATT? It's not okay just because you have a more positive opinion of it than some others.

erm, I thought this was a thread on the AJATT method... XD

dtcamero Wrote:erm, I thought this was a thread on the AJATT method... XD

Ah, I miswrote--I meant SilverSpoon. It's okay to talk about AJATT, or about SilverSpoon, but the thread discussing the merits of SilverSpoon was closed. And, as was mentioned earlier in this thread, it's bad forum manners to continue a discussion from a closed thread in another thread. So, talking about the merits of SilverSpoon should be put on hold for a little while, shouldn't it?

everything being said has been said at least once before anyway...