ta12121 Wrote:In the beginning phases it's essential to get used to J-J. Once that's done to a confident level, then having kanji to English translation. Doesn't hurt your progress. It's good to keep a balance though, because understanding J-J(native way), is vital to getting far into japanese

OK, let's see if I can use a Japanese dictionary. I looked up 一緒 which I think everyone here knows what it means, at least in English.

１ 一つにまとめること。ひとまとめ。「荷物を―にする」「人の分も―に扱う」
２ 区別のないこと。同一。「―の着物」「意見が―になる」
３ ともに同じことをすること。「―に遊ぶ」
４ （ふつう「御一緒する」の形で用いて）「連れ立つ」「ともに行く」を、同行する相手を敬っていう語。「そこまで御―させてください」
５ 同時に行われること。「―に買った物」「着いたのは―だ」

I know barely any of these words (used in the definition). I was familiar with meanings 2, 3, 4, and 5. I know barely any of those words. There are 10 words there (in definition #4), I know 2 of them: 行く and ください. So I'm probably not yet ready to use a J-J dictionary. In other words, how does one go about "getting used to it?"

I still use J-E dictionaries. Does this make me a bad person?
Seriously, I've never really seen the benefit of looking at 一つにまとめること。ともに同じことをする。when its much faster and easier to just look at "together" and then probably some example sentences. And they'll be more helpful than "ーに選ぶ" which gives you lime nothing.

The only benefit I can see is that you "never break immersion" as if you're dressed up as Mickey mouse at Disneyland and you're not allowed to speak. I really don't think it's "essential" or "vital" to getting anywhere. Helpful? Meh... Are you going for speed/efficacy or hardcore "I'm living Japanese" experience?

There's a good thread on monolingual dictionaries here someplace. I think it's silly to use them too early and with such avid focus as recommended by certain folks, I have yet to see any logic or evidence to suggest it's more than nonsense, if I may put it a little bluntly.

J-Js can be useful if you want to know the difference between words like 応用, 実用, 活用 and 運用, but even so I think example sentences are more useful. Using a J-J to look up concrete nouns or anything with an obvious meaning (e.g. 一緒) is rather silly imo and far from "essential".

jcdietz03 Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:In the beginning phases it's essential to get used to J-J. Once that's done to a confident level, then having kanji to English translation. Doesn't hurt your progress. It's good to keep a balance though, because understanding J-J(native way), is vital to getting far into japanese

OK, let's see if I can use a Japanese dictionary. I looked up 一緒 which I think everyone here knows what it means, at least in English.

１ 一つにまとめること。ひとまとめ。「荷物を―にする」「人の分も―に扱う」
２ 区別のないこと。同一。「―の着物」「意見が―になる」
３ ともに同じことをすること。「―に遊ぶ」
４ （ふつう「御一緒する」の形で用いて）「連れ立つ」「ともに行く」を、同行する相手を敬っていう語。「そこまで御―させてください」
５ 同時に行われること。「―に買った物」「着いたのは―だ」

I know barely any of these words (used in the definition). I was familiar with meanings 2, 3, 4, and 5. I know barely any of those words. There are 10 words there (in definition #4), I know 2 of them: 行く and ください. So I'm probably not yet ready to use a J-J dictionary. In other words, how does one go about "getting used to it?"

A dictionary will always have a lot of listings, so I'd recommend you only pick one that you can understand. Eventually, understanding all of it will come. But how do you get there? That's the thing, you gotta read a lot,srs a lot of vocab,context/grammar. I know this seems pretty vague. But think of it this way: break up the work. Work on basic grammar, basic vocab, basic context. Then gradually increase this. Obviously immersing in japanese in large quantities(from various sources you enjoy, or are interested in). It takes time, I'm not sure how I got to this level but, I'd say it took me a while. Probably 5-10months or so , to be able to understand J-J easily,read,understand and write it. But everyone is different. I'd say in a few months you can easily understand J-J. but what I'm referring to is. Let's say you read a japanese novel. You have to be able to understand it in J-J. You don't want to keep your mind in that J-E phase(auto-translation mode, which happens in the beginning phases).

I still say keep it simple: if you don't get the meaning of what you're looking up in a J-J, then move on to a J-E.

Now, if you have fun doing recursive searches like AJATT blog recommended a while back (then later recanted with doing searches of words you already know to get dictionary practice), then have at it.

PS: Something I've been noticing using 研究者(J-E) and 広辞苑(J-J) is that you find many more idiomatic phrases in 研究者 which is essential for understanding the jdramas I've been studying. It's one of those things where knowing the ingredients (meanings of individual words) does not tell you what the meal will taste like (overall sentence meaning). Pick you poisons wisely.

Asriel Wrote:I still use J-E dictionaries. Does this make me a bad person?
Seriously, I've never really seen the benefit of looking at 一つにまとめること。ともに同じことをする。when its much faster and easier to just look at "together" and then probably some example sentences. And they'll be more helpful than "ーに選ぶ" which gives you lime nothing.

The only benefit I can see is that you "never break immersion" as if you're dressed up as Mickey mouse at Disneyland and you're not allowed to speak. I really don't think it's "essential" or "vital" to getting anywhere. Helpful? Meh... Are you going for speed/efficacy or hardcore "I'm living Japanese" experience?

Agreed. I've said this in other threads, but I still use J->E quite a bit and I don't think it hurts me at all. My goal in using a dictionary is to get back to what I'm reading as quickly as possible.

jcdietz03 Wrote:There are 10 words there (in definition #4), I know 2 of them: 行く and ください. So I'm probably not yet ready to use a J-J dictionary.

true

Quote:In other words, how does one go about "getting used to it?"

learn more words

IceCream Wrote:but you don't just do single word srsing either though Yudan, right?

I've never used SRS at all, and I've only rarely used any flash cards.

I think my J->E gives better examples than the Koujien (the J-J I use); I know there are better J-J's out there but the Koujien works well enough for me when I do need to use it.

For SRSing single words, I'm not sure -- I don't think it's necessary to do that, especially when you're at the point where you can actually understand J-J definitions.

Ok, so going mono-lingual is great and has alot of benefits but for me it's just frustrating because I get unrelated results or something.
For example I searched 静か and the results I got:
〈ダ〉 （１） 音や動きがないようす． （２） 落ち着いているようす． （３） おだやか． ▼～な世の中 (派)(～)さ

I know 静か means quiet, calm, etc' but how am I supposed to get that from the result I got here?
anybody has a step by step guide on how to use a J-J dictionary ?

loverkanji Wrote:Ok, so going mono-lingual is great and has alot of benefits but for me it's just frustrating because I get unrelated results or something.
For example I searched 静か and the results I got:
〈ダ〉 （１） 音や動きがないようす． （２） 落ち着いているようす． （３） おだやか． ▼～な世の中 (派)(～)さ

I know 静か means quiet, calm, etc' but how am I supposed to get that from the result I got here?
anybody has a step by step guide on how to use a J-J dictionary ?

From the looks of it, the results are telling you exactly that. No sound or movement. Settled. Peaceful. Just like in English, a word can cover multiple situations which is the case here. Probably a great reason to go with a dictionary that gives example sentences for each instance such as 研究者

what worries me is doing mistakes that will be very hard to fix later.

Well, I'll reiterate my belief that if you have any trouble understanding J-J definitions, trying to do all monolingual is likely to bring more problems than benefits.

loverkanji Wrote:Ok, so going mono-lingual is great and has alot of benefits but for me it's just frustrating because I get unrelated results or something.
For example I searched 静か and the results I got:
〈ダ〉 （１） 音や動きがないようす． （２） 落ち着いているようす． （３） おだやか． ▼～な世の中 (派)(～)さ

I know 静か means quiet, calm, etc' but how am I supposed to get that from the result I got here?
anybody has a step by step guide on how to use a J-J dictionary ?

the results do say that.... i don't get what problem is.

What I'm saying is that I couldn't understand the results. I don't think that going blindly into J-J dictionary is a good thing, and it's not productive, it will only frustrate most people and will associate a lot of pains with the whole learning process which makes people distance themselves from actually learning.

I will give you an example (using my previous post) the first result is 音や動きがないようす
I know 音 means sound and 動き means move (actually movement) but how am I supposed to know what in this case means や or ようす　and if it has any special meaning if it's combines with ない.

These small things are whats important.

I think J-J dictionaries are best used once you already have the reading abilities needed to understand the definitions. And they don't need to be used for every word, just the ones that need a better explanation (or if you really have the time, or enjoy reading dictionary definitions) like synonyms or difficult concepts.

I don't think J-E definitions are a problem in themselves; once you understand a new word, you don't need to keep translating it in your head to the English definition.

Exactly it's just the saying "go monolingual only and forget English translation" sets unrealistic expectations and error prone.

What it ultimately comes down to is this. To truly understand and also remember words, you need to hear them and read them multiple times within comprehensible context. The only way to do this is through plenty of reading and listening. For this reason you want to use your srs efficiently to maximise the time you have for listening and reading. Japanese > English flashcards can be made and reviewed quickly, and are generally clear enough in meaning that once memorised as having english meaning X, their real Japanese meaning Y can be understood through repeated exposure to it within real context.

In response to the ongoing marketing of the efficiency maximizing solutions, a new paradigm for optimal SRSing going forward is proposed:

Repurposing the functionality of the SRS as a lexical priming method creates an illusion of efficiency. Apparent gains at the procedural front end translate to inefficiencies down the line. Once the number of lexical units exceeds a certain critical mass, the probability of encountering a lexical item drops exponentially. Usefulness is inversely proportional to the bragging rights of massive decks. Instead of maximizing real time usage potential, the user instead experiences a continuous treadmill of subpar lexical input. We need to reevaluate the value add of such a strategy.

A reconceptualized SRS protocol based on ROI more fully exploits the benefits of early investment in holistic lexical knowledge. In fact, effective advance utilization of resources to maximize familiarization of lexical units can render SRS technology redundant. Our worse case scenario is continued operationalization of the SRS with the optimal amount of data to ensure the internalization of collocational and syntactical information. This best practices proceduralization will confer true competitive advantage. We've also had reports of some users experiencing positive emotions during the lexical unit familiarization stage.

Implementation of a FIFO lexical unit inventory management is the second strategic element in our reengineered SRS protocol. Lexical units of specific texts are proactively pre-learned to ensure actual usage opportunities, thereby leveraging short-term memory to synergistically internalize lexical units and accelerate reading fluency. Lexical recursion inherent in the texts allows for later removal of those lexical units from the SRS process in order to maintain positive momentum.

In keeping with industry practice, sources and statistics are available through our rectal database. It's all about the bottom line. ;p

Thora Wrote:In response to the ongoing marketing of the efficiency maximizing solutions, a new paradigm for optimal SRSing going forward is proposed:

Repurposing the functionality of the SRS as a lexical priming method creates an illusion of efficiency. Apparent gains at the procedural front end translate to inefficiencies down the line. Once the number of lexical units exceeds a certain critical mass, the probability of encountering a lexical item drops exponentially. Usefulness is inversely proportional to the bragging rights of massive decks. Instead of maximizing real time usage potential, the user instead experiences a continuous treadmill of subpar lexical input. We need to reevaluate the value add of such a strategy.

A reconceptualized SRS protocol based on ROI more fully exploits the benefits of early investment in holistic lexical knowledge. In fact, effective advance utilization of resources to maximize familiarization of lexical units can render SRS technology redundant. Our worse case scenario is continued operationalization of the SRS with the optimal amount of data to ensure the internalization of collocational and syntactical information. This best practices proceduralization will confer true competitive advantage. We've also had reports of some users experiencing positive emotions during the lexical unit familiarization stage.

Implementation of a FIFO lexical unit inventory management is the second strategic element in our reengineered SRS protocol. Lexical units of specific texts are proactively pre-learned to ensure actual usage opportunities, thereby leveraging short-term memory to synergistically internalize lexical units and accelerate reading fluency. Lexical recursion inherent in the texts allows for later removal of those lexical units from the SRS process in order to maintain positive momentum.

In keeping with industry practice, sources and statistics are available through our rectal database. It's all about the bottom line. ;p

So what you're saying is that you should only use an SRS to internalise the (relatively small) set of vocabulary that makes up 90-95% of communication? Because the last 5-10% takes up a disproportionately high number of cards and hence review time?

Working on that basis, this presents several interesting opportunities for making a pre-built SRS deck a useful basis of study for students of a language. I'd like to see decks for various languages that act as graded readers - it becomes possible to create such a deck (perhaps even easy to do) if you're limiting the vocabulary set to some optimal amount.

P.S. That's the most bombastic post I think I've ever seen on a forum had to read it twice to understand it all...

Oh... in case it's wasn't obvious, I was poking fun at authoritative efficiency advocates. (It was actually a reaction to various recent threads on similar topics, not just this one.) The suggestions I made were sincere, though. Thanks for making the effort to find them in all that tortured tongue-in-cheekness.

I've heard of Japanese graded readers, but not whether there are set vocab lists. There are online sites and software which generate vocab lists from texts and mark/count which words are JLPT 1-4 (or any custom vocab lists). Teachers use it to guage difficulty for their students.

I remember reading some stuff on Rob Waring's or Paul Nation's site about graded readers, the case for early focus on L2 vocabulary learning, and intensive reading. I don't remember the exact links, but you should be able to find something by starting here if you're interested: Rob Waring and Paul Nation

Waring mentions that by working with new words in many different ways we process them more deeply and have better retention. I think this is a weakness of how (I assume) most people SRS - a single unvaried prompt. For uncommon words, multiple cards (audio, kana, dictation?) and looking up some more detailed info (common pairings, opposites, idioms, etymology, etc.) might be an idea. Kanji in Context is good in that regard - it includes some of that information.

Mass-vocab is indeed probably not a good idea if it's the only study you do.
The method is pretty much a variant of "painless SRS", which there was a thread about before, so yeah the info you get is pretty shallow if you're not supplementing it.

Painless SRS = Same material in less time
Mass-vocab - More material in same time

This has also been discussed before by others, but I think it's better to have a mediocre understanding of 20,000 words instead of a solid grasp of 2000 words given the same amount of time in an SRS. Knowing 2000 words very well won't help you read a book, but kind of knowing 20,000 words definitely will.

Learning masses of vocab in a short time is also not as shallow as it might first appear, as relationships between words with similar kanji or sounds becomes more clear than if you saw the words months apart.

And really, once you're past basic Japanese you should be reading (watching, etc.) real materials instead of laboriously mining them into sentence packs that take forever to review and end up reducing the time you spend applying your Japanese. Read enough and you'll improve your understanding of the words that matter and the uncommon words will remain vague (just like in your native language).

My whole premise is based upon the learner already knowing at least intermediate grammar though. Mass-vocab isn't a technique for beginners. I also don't recommend getting the words from lists unless you're trying to pass a test. I get my masses of vocab from masses of reading. (I'm 暇 at work lately so I've been studying chemistry, geology, and history in Japanese)

I sort of touch upon the idea with "living anki decks" in that you adapt the decks you already have as you advance in your knowledge. Likewise, how you study needs to adapt as you advance in your knowledge. Writing out sentences is great early on, but counter productive even in the basic stages where just writing it out once is good enough. Having photos for reference is perfect to start but may begin to give too many clues where the word itself is all you want. Soon, just having straight vocabulary is enough where as earlier having the example sentence cemented the learning.

That there are so many ideas that work for so many people is testament to the idea there's not one way to do it. However, be aware that as time goes on it's better to broaden your approach. Especially true when you look at diminishing returns. The time you spent cementing 2000 basic words should be more than the time spent on the next 4000 intermediate and even more than the next 8000 words that follow.

Example: The Core 2000 you'll have be double cards of Kana to Kanji and Kanji to Kana with sentences being read out. The Core 6000 you'll just make Kanji to Kana with both definitions and example sentences read out. The Core 10,000 (or remaining JLPT 2 and 1 vocab) you can just be Kanji and definition.

Plus, it's only an example. Go with what's working for you. If you're having to beat yourself up to study like I'm doing at the moment then something is wrong (12 hour work days ain't helping matters though).

J7 and Nukemarine: Exactly.

I think Harhol rightly points out that SRS can be adapted for different purposes at different levels. Yukamina reminds us just to be flexible about methods and selective about their application.

I sensed the pendulum swinging from AJATT's post-RTK "Just mine 10,000 sentences with a big monolingual dictionary!" to "Just memorize a 20,000 word list!". :-)

Nukemarine and others have done a lot to fill in AJATT's gaping post-RTK void with all the Core, KO2001 and SRS grammar stuff. It'd be a drag if that got swept aside by some kind of misinterpreted "mass vocab" revolution.

Jarvik has always been careful to point out that his "mass vocab method" isn't meant for beginners and that he acquires his words from his reading in particular subject areas. Those qualifications are worth emphasizing, imo. Those words come with context and personal resonance and will be reinforced.

What nadiatims recommends isn't exactly the same. And advocating one method for all learners or beyond the point of usefulness, all in the name of efficiency, is something to avoid, imo. Vileru and Taylor remind us that efficiency isn't always the priority, an enjoyable personalized learning experience and deeper initial understanding are also important to them. Being flexible means knowing which vocab cards will be reinforced while reading and which ones could benefit from the addition of more information or multiple cards. Selective vocab pre-learning is more efficient, if that's your thing. ;-)

Time spent creating a beginner card isn't wasted time. I'm sure some of us have prepared study notes for an exam and ended up not needing to review them. And, as Harhol points out, what we call grammar is often idiomatic expressions or functional vocabulary, which can be SRSed until we're at a stage that they will be reinforced naturally while reading. The act of exploring expressions, playing with them, typing them, writing them, making cloze deletion...can be part of an active learning process. Beginners don't acquire usage knowledge from reading widely. Anki's examples sentence plugin is a good recommendation for quick context, but not so useful for beginners.

In both cases, the extra seconds are worth it if it improves the quality of reviews and memory (which may mean fewer or no reviews).

"It's not all or nothing" (ydtt) should be this forum's motto. Now that would save us all some time... :-)

This is interesting: http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...e-exposure