One time my personal blog got linked off the AJATT twitter.

My hits went from 4 a day to 360 something. Then back down to 4 because I don't write a lot.

Anyway, I stopped thinking in total time and started thinking with actual time.

When I think about it, I only study Japanese for like an hour at the most, every day.
If I could study for 3-4 hours a day, for 18 months, damn, I bet I'd be super good too. If only...

zachandhobbes Wrote:However, thistime, Khatz can surely say a lot more than that. I mean, anyone on this forum could.

I didn't mean to suggest he couldn't. Sorry, if it came across that way. It was just an example not something I was trying to say was true.

zachandhobbes Wrote:he has a technical (aka not-teaching-english) job in Japan so he has AT LEAST got JLPT 1 under his belt.

Hardly a conclusion you can draw. MANY non teaching jobs held by foreigners in Japan require little or no Japanese at all. Foreigners are hired for their English and/or their expertise in some field that they can't seem to be able to find in Japan, not for their Japanese.

That's possible, but when we're talking about Computer Science, how hard could it be to find someone who speaks Japanese and can program in C++ or whatever coding language needed?

CS is not that unique of a job, I'm sure Japan is flooding with CS majors.

However I do admit it's possible he could be in some sort of position that involves working as a bridge with American companies or perhaps working with English speaking coders or something, which requires his English ability and not his Japanese.

So, really, like you said, it's all up in the air.

It could be shady marketing, but I like to believe what he's done is legit just for motivation for myself. Also, it's not like he's come up with nothing. He's at least got his products, which are basically very simple, but show that he's at least done some work (I'm thinking of the "My First Sentence Pack" which is 500 essential SRS sentences before you start to mine your own).

thistime Wrote:but if Khatz is saying he was fluent after 18 months in an attempt to persuade you to pay for his services then he'd better be able to say more than sumimasen eki ha doko desuka?

Why do you end statements with question marks.

@_@

Womacks23 Wrote:You don't hold on to the idea that his abilities could have been exaggerated a little? There is what, one video of him speaking so-so Japanese on youtube after having lived in Japan for 4-5 years....

Lets not play down his achievments. My Japanese friend watched that video, and assumed he'd been brought up in Japan; apparently his pronnociations and manner of speaking are native level. So yes, I believe him.

zachandhobbes Wrote:However I do admit it's possible he could be in some sort of position that involves working as a bridge with American companies or perhaps working with English speaking coders or something, which requires his English ability and not his Japanese.

So, really, like you said, it's all up in the air.

Not really; he talks about getting his job in Japan in one blog post. Cant find it now, but pretty sure he said the whole application process was in Japanese, including having to give an hour long technical presentation at the interview.

aphasiac Wrote:including having to give an hour long technical presentation at the interview.

On what? :o

Guys, seriously, it's best not to debate at how skilled Khatzumoto was when he was 23 getting a job in Japan.
One, it's been done 20 or 30 pages back and on other forums.
Two, we've only his posts to give as evidence on the matter, which still get misquoted.
Three, that he could have easily posted plenty of evidence of his growing ability: writing practice, speaking practice, srs deck, etc and chose not to points that he probably likes the ambiguity.
Four, he still didn't do it for his Chinese learning (that I know about) to at least gauge his progress AFTER his method became popular.
Five, we've got plenty of people here that've done great by experiencing lots of Japanese AND lotsa studying (Zorlee, IceCream, Kazelee). These people are willing to post their growing abilities as time goes on. Yeah, it's embarrassing but damn it they've been willing to do it to show it can be done and does work.

Ask me, we should talk about the AJATT method here. That normally involves Sentence Method, SRS, and experiencing life in Japanese (mostly from entertainment) as much as you can create it. Want to talk about if AJATT works, I think we have plenty of people that can give honest answers from personal experience.

Constant sentence miming has worked for me in terms of being able to read Japanese, however my speaking and listening ability is far behind. I still struggle to read the news with all its long 漢字 words, but I've progressed using the method.

That's my personal experience.

IceCream Wrote:

kusterdu Wrote:It's not that I doubt that there is someone who has attained the same level of fluency as he has in approximately the same amount of time -- I just haven't heard of anyone. Everyone who talks about or adheres to his method is still not there yet, and the success stories I've seen are people who have gotten better but are still just part of the way there.

The thing is, it really is a matter of what you train while you're learning. From the post ta12121 linked, you can really see that Khatz spent a lot of time learning and practising formal language, especially with formal documents, news, and things connected to his career (i guess he really is a geek... that must be what he finds fun ). And yes, what he acheived was impressive. But he says quite clearly that he wasn't comfortable with just normal, informal language at that point.

If you ask most people here how fluent they are at 18 months, they will also be able to reel off a list of areas that they have equally impressive results in (give or take a few exagerations), though they may not be the same ones...

Nuriko, Albion, and Zorlee spring to mind as excellent examples of people whose skill levels are possibly more well rounded and as high or higher than Khatz at 18 months (Zorlee isn't even at 18 months...).

I'm not even at 18months and I can read novels, but still have trouble with names/places(lucky firagana is provided)

You know, I think I know why he might have not posted his details for Chinese. He didn't want to argue about it. When we learn something to a good extent and claim it. Everyone is going to ask for proof of some sort.

I believe any amount of proof I give, will eventually be turned down somewhat. In the end, the only person who's able to call you fluent is yourself.

ta12121 Wrote:I believe any amount of proof I give, will eventually be turned down somewhat. In the end, the only person who's able to call you fluent is yourself.

I don't really understand this. What's the point in calling yourself fluent? Can't you just be good at what you do and allow other people to compliment you (humbly disagreeing of course), if they so desire? Isn't it better to undersell your abilities and then prove yourself wrong through actual ability than go around saying how awesome you are then be unable to back it up?

Incidentally, there are several people on these forums who claim japanese levels superior to what you claim. Few doubt them.

Personally, if you're posting a diary of some sort (written, audio or video) over time then individual opinions of your abilities is irrelevant. What you have is something NATIVES can look at and give a reasonable critique.

Yeah, I can hear people on boards bitch and moan about such and such speaker, however if I hear enough natives make positive comments about a person's speaking and writing then I'm fairly sure I can depend on that critique. I've seen positive comments about Khatzumoto, IceCream, Zorlee's and others submitted Japanese ability. I have no doubt about their ability, which is too far above me to gauge anyway.

To be honest Ta12121, that's been part of the reason I've been prodding you to submit more work. Yeah, not something daily, but maybe a monthly video or paragraph so natives that visit this board can give honest dope about your progress. In addition, that gives ammunition against naysayers that just want to downplay anything.

Yeah, I've been wanting to see something from ta12121 as well. Not because I want to prove him wrong or anything, but I'm legitimately curious as to how far he's come in the short amount of time he's been studying. I know he uses words that I would never use in real life (just based on the sentences he's posted here and there).

He says his production is below-par...so is mine, and I think it's a general thing. But even something like that mock-JLPT he was going to take, for recognition, and perhaps a diary, video, something to actually gauge progress (if not just for his own sake).

As for claiming to be fluent...People say I'm fluent all the time, but this is coming from people who only speak English. People in Japan say I'm 'conversant,' but can't read too well. Me? I say I've got a long way to go until I'm satisfied (never...?)

Khatz...Something about me bugs him. I think it's his attitude and writing style. He did an interview with someone on youtube and he seemed like an OK guy, but when he's on his own -- he just doesn't click with me. He gives off the impression that a lot of his claims are exaggerated. But whatever.

zigmonty Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:I believe any amount of proof I give, will eventually be turned down somewhat. In the end, the only person who's able to call you fluent is yourself.

I don't really understand this. What's the point in calling yourself fluent? Can't you just be good at what you do and allow other people to compliment you (humbly disagreeing of course), if they so desire? Isn't it better to undersell your abilities and then prove yourself wrong through actual ability than go around saying how awesome you are then be unable to back it up?

Incidentally, there are several people on these forums who claim japanese levels superior to what you claim. Few doubt them.

my mistake, I didn't claim to be fluent. I'm far from it. I actually do, no matter how far I get, there is always so much more to learn/know.

The way I phrased that was directed to me but i was directing it to khatz(my mistake). I'm just saying every-time someone gives some sort of proof, people decline it.(Not everyone, but some...)
I think the best indicator is, what can you exactly do in the language when you compare it to natives/your own native language.

Nukemarine Wrote:Yeah, I can hear people on boards bitch and moan about such and such speaker, however if I hear enough natives make positive comments about a person's speaking and writing then I'm fairly sure I can depend on that critique. I've seen positive comments about Khatzumoto, IceCream, Zorlee's and others submitted Japanese ability. I have no doubt about their ability, which is too far above me to gauge anyway.

To be honest Ta12121, that's been part of the reason I've been prodding you to submit more work. Yeah, not something daily, but maybe a monthly video or paragraph so natives that visit this board can give honest dope about your progress. In addition, that gives ammunition against naysayers that just want to downplay anything.

Heh, do IceCream, Zorlee and Ta12121 already have legions of naysayers?

Although I was originally asking if there was anybody who was inspired by AJATT/followed the AJATT method that had become fluent, I would still be very interested in hearing about anybody who has attained high degrees of Japanese proficiency.

As for Khatzumoto, even if you don't like him, it's not in anyone's interest for him to be bad at Japanese. I mean, if a guy can study Japanese intensively for 18 months and then live in Japan for a few years and still not be great at Japanese, what the heck chance do the rest of us have?

kusterdu Wrote:

Nukemarine Wrote:Yeah, I can hear people on boards bitch and moan about such and such speaker, however if I hear enough natives make positive comments about a person's speaking and writing then I'm fairly sure I can depend on that critique. I've seen positive comments about Khatzumoto, IceCream, Zorlee's and others submitted Japanese ability. I have no doubt about their ability, which is too far above me to gauge anyway.

To be honest Ta12121, that's been part of the reason I've been prodding you to submit more work. Yeah, not something daily, but maybe a monthly video or paragraph so natives that visit this board can give honest dope about your progress. In addition, that gives ammunition against naysayers that just want to downplay anything.

Heh, do IceCream, Zorlee and Ta12121 already have legions of naysayers?

Although I was originally asking if there was anybody who was inspired by AJATT/followed the AJATT method that had become fluent, I would still be very interested in hearing about anybody who has attained high degrees of Japanese proficiency.

As for Khatzumoto, even if you don't like him, it's not in anyone's interest for him to be bad at Japanese. I mean, if a guy can study Japanese intensively for 18 months and then live in Japan for a few years and still not be great at Japanese, what the heck chance do the rest of us have?

Very true. I have been following AJATT for a while. Using the method I mean, for 1 year and 1 month. I've been doing that extensive immersion that khatz recommends+srsing a lot. I have studied grammar, but I've found that. Once you immersed enough/read enough. Grammar makes so much more sense to you then just studying it alone with only english.
Although I'm not fluent(yet), the method does work. I believe it's all about, doing daily things. That itself adds up in hours,years,etc

Asriel Wrote:Khatz...Something about me bugs him. I think it's his attitude and writing style. He did an interview with someone on youtube and he seemed like an OK guy, but when he's on his own -- he just doesn't click with me. He gives off the impression that a lot of his claims are exaggerated. But whatever.

Khatz employs a certain type of British humour; he bigs himself up and exagerates everyhing, with the intent that it's meant to be so ridiculous it's actual self-mocking.

However, to the uninitated (non-Brits) it could come across as arrogant? This could be the reason he's hated to much; a lost in translation thing..

kusterdu Wrote:Heh, do IceCream, Zorlee and Ta12121 already have legions of naysayers?

I have my doubts about IceCream... that poopy head. I mean to think she goes around calling her vast collection of the Japaneses FLUENT... what nerve... and that damned cult she has... what are those idiots thinking.

I kneel before Ta12121, though. Tis the lord o' the kanjis.

kusterdu Wrote:I would still be very interested in hearing about anybody who has attained high degrees of Japanese proficiency.

You'd have to define "high degree" more precisely in order to answer that question.

@nukemarine

I wish I could be included in that group of awesome, but I've been lax in my studies this past year.

kazelee Wrote:

kusterdu Wrote:Heh, do IceCream, Zorlee and Ta12121 already have legions of naysayers?

I have my doubts about IceCream... that poopy head. I mean to think she goes around calling her vast collection of the Japaneses FLUENT... what nerve... and that damned cult she has... what are those idiots thinking.

I kneel before Ta12121, though. Tis the lord o' the kanjis.

kusterdu Wrote:I would still be very interested in hearing about anybody who has attained high degrees of Japanese proficiency.

You'd have to define "high degree" more precisely in order to answer that question.

Hahaha, I think the real problem is that many people who are good at Japanese are also very humble -- which is a good thing. Lord knows, I am not fluent at all, and yet (non-Japanese)people want to say I am. It sounds like other people have had similar experiences. It's really irritating, and I don't know what the deal is with that.

Anyway, I can understand why some of you don't want to be singled out as fluent or even really good, so the only choice is...FORCE!

ta12121 Wrote:Very true. I have been following AJATT for a while. Using the method I mean, for 1 year and 1 month. I've been doing that extensive immersion that khatz recommends+srsing a lot. I have studied grammar, but I've found that. Once you immersed enough/read enough. Grammar makes so much more sense to you then just studying it alone with only english.

yeah, you're pretty good at grammar until it comes to your own native language c(= sorry, couldn't help myself

This is one thing that I don't really understand though, everything you listed is something I would do naturally, so I don't quite understand why IRS actually called a method

Then again, I guess iverson's method for vocabulary is kind of common sense for some people as well, but it still gets his name to it...

Asriel Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:Very true. I have been following AJATT for a while. Using the method I mean, for 1 year and 1 month. I've been doing that extensive immersion that khatz recommends+srsing a lot. I have studied grammar, but I've found that. Once you immersed enough/read enough. Grammar makes so much more sense to you then just studying it alone with only english.

yeah, you're pretty good at grammar until it comes to your own native language c(= sorry, couldn't help myself

This is one thing that I don't really understand though, everything you listed is something I would do naturally, so I don't quite understand why IRS actually called a method

Then again, I guess iverson's method for vocabulary is kind of common sense for some people as well, but it still gets his name to it...

lol, no problem. I would have done the same. It's true, all these methods are common sense but they get labeled a name because someone actually did them to a high-extent. So it's tested. Or whoever found it first names it?

kazelee Wrote:

kusterdu Wrote:Heh, do IceCream, Zorlee and Ta12121 already have legions of naysayers?

I have my doubts about IceCream... that poopy head. I mean to think she goes around calling her vast collection of the Japaneses FLUENT... what nerve... and that damned cult she has... what are those idiots thinking.

I kneel before Ta12121, though. Tis the lord o' the kanjis.

kusterdu Wrote:I would still be very interested in hearing about anybody who has attained high degrees of Japanese proficiency.

You'd have to define "high degree" more precisely in order to answer that question.

@nukemarine

I wish I could be included in that group of awesome, but I've been lax in my studies this past year.

Yes kanji goal of 4000+, heck I might as well go for 6000 while I'm at it....

I get he whole "did itfirst names it" thing, but what he does is really just a bunch of methods combined into one name. He wasn't the one who invented srs, learning from native materials, immersion, or having fun. He just studied a lot, lik any other language learner. He just made a website and (humorously) boasted about how fast he learned, and people say it's a "method."

I don't consider myself to be following AJATT, despite doing the same things, because I came up with or discovered it all on my own or separate sources.

If you read his site though he admits he didn't come up with the method and that he just did what he thought would work based on other sites like Antimoon.

True, it's basically all common sense but he put it together in his own way, by taking the best of everything.