I think there is no question that you can get bad habits. A mountain of input won't fix everything. I know this because I have seen it

One of my students in Japan was 60 years old. Her brother left Japan for the US when he was 20 and lived there for 40 years. During this time he almost completely forgot Japanese so my student was studying English to be able to communicate with him. I read his emails. He had a native level vocab and used idioms, however he made quite a few mistakes and overall it didn't feel natural.

I have also studied Japanese in a class with Chinese girl who was married to a Japanese man and lived with his whole family. She was getting a huge amount of Japanese input and speaking lots everyday, yet over the 6 months I studied with her her speaking skill remained child like and contained many mistakes. I think she met him in China and whilst her Japanese was poor spoke a lot and made a lot of bad habits. I think the problem is you don't need to understand every nuance of a language to understand what is said to you. Some people with bad habits just ignore the finer details eg 大阪へ行きます、大阪に行きます, and just use the one they have always used.

I think the big danger is when you learn grammar rules first and then use them to speak. This is very different from allowing the words to come from your past input experience and can create long lasting bad habits.

However, I think output is a skill and I agree it does internalise the language. The more you output the better you will get at it. It is just that there are dangers. I think the advice that if you can't say something complex, then make simple sentences or use examples to make your point is a good and safe way, much like a child does.

Pretty much every Japanese person and infact every person I have ever met has believed that you need to speak a language a lot to get good at it. Europe may be different, but I think this is the general belief in primarily monolingual countries. I have tried many times to get my students and friends, who have studied English for years but still suck using AJATT based methods and they never do it. It's frustrating.

Khatsumoto stole my baby! Shikaka!

Quote:I have also studied Japanese in a class with Chinese girl who was married to a Japanese man and lived with his whole family. She was getting a huge amount of Japanese input and speaking lots everyday, yet over the 6 months I studied with her her speaking skill remained child like and contained many mistakes. I think she met him in China and whilst her Japanese was poor spoke a lot and made a lot of bad habits. I think the problem is you don't need to understand every nuance of a language to understand what is said to you. Some people with bad habits just ignore the finer details eg 大阪へ行きます、大阪に行きます, and just use the one they have always used.

I live with an English speaking family, but as we rarely talk to each other I wouldn't exactly call it an immersion environment

There's the possibility of your student's family not correcting her. Or her not wishing to untrain her bad habits. Edit: Reread your post and this was already said lol.

thermal Wrote:However, I think output is a skill and I agree it does internalise the language. The more you output the better you will get at it.

I should clarify what I mean by "no output". Whenever you do an SRS rep you're supposed to say the sentence out loud. So if you do 200 reps per day you're saying more than 1000 words. It's important to get accustomed to speaking the language and you will do this simply by doing reps. Does this count as "output"? I'm a little confused by the terminology because I don't consider this to be output but clearly others do. When I think output I think practising your conversation/writing skills in a largely improvised manner.

harhol Wrote:

thermal Wrote:However, I think output is a skill and I agree it does internalise the language. The more you output the better you will get at it.

I should clarify what I mean by "no output". Whenever you do an SRS rep you're supposed to say the sentence out loud. So if you do 200 reps per day you're saying more than 1000 words. It's important to get accustomed to speaking the language and you will do this simply by doing reps. Does this count as "output"? I'm a little confused by the terminology because I don't consider this to be output but clearly others do. When I think output I think practising your conversation/writing skills in a largely improvised manner.

Think its been said that this does not count as output...

I consider output as creative writing or speech. Unless you are having conversations in Japanese or writing nikki/essays in Japanese, you aren't outputting. You need to be producing original output, not just mimicking something you hear (shadowing) or reading words off of a page. Both of those do have benefits, but they aren't ever going to get you conversing or writing at a high level.

Ex: Shadowing can help your pronunciation, but good pronunciation and holding a conversation are not the same thing.

When you people say "internalise the language", just what *exactly* do you mean? I never felt any need to "internalise" anything...

fanty Wrote:When you people say "internalise the language", just what *exactly* do you mean? I never felt any need to "internalise" anything...

Internalize means being able to use whatever was internalized with no deliberate thought involved. If you haven't internalized you haven't learned to a high level. 身につける is a really good translation of it

For example you know that the French word for hello is "bonjour" without having to think French word for hello... French word for hello... bon... bonj... aha!

harhol Wrote:For example you know that the French word for hello is "bonjour" without having to think French word for hello... French word for hello... bon... bonj... aha!

But... you don't need to use the word to not do that. You just switch your brain to the language you want to speak in, and all words you ever heard (in that language) and still remember just flood your head... (or maybe it's just me...)

Fanty, you're right. Essentially that's what is supposed to happen if you immerse yourself in the language enough. When you're linguistically fluent.

fanty Wrote:

harhol Wrote:For example you know that the French word for hello is "bonjour" without having to think French word for hello... French word for hello... bon... bonj... aha!

But... you don't need to use the word to not do that. You just switch your brain to the language you want to speak in, and all words you ever heard (in that language) and still remember just flood your head... (or maybe it's just me...)

Probably just you, yes. When you have conversations in Japanese, do you commonly use words you entered just a few days/a week ago into your SRS? Probably not, even though you would still recognize them in a text. That's because you know the words, but they aren't internalized. By having them in the SRS for a longer time, by being exposed to them and by using them, they are internalized and brought into active memory. The next time you want to say something concerning that area, that word will pop into your head automatically, without any effort what so ever.

This is the reason why natives aren't speaking as nice English as is represented in older books, in speeches etc: Outputting like that requires a lot of effort because it isn't internalized, lack of use being the culprit.

And harhols example isn't completely true, it mixes in the thought of translation. It's not that you have think "word for hello... hello... bon-something... hum", it's more that the word simply won't come to mind. A really basic example:
You want to say "the car is red", and you're a complete beginner.
You say: 車が赤い。
Someone points out, for fun "You could have said 自動車が赤い."
You say: Hmm yeah, I didn't think of it.
This might be a bad example since 車 is perfectly fine to use in this sentence, probably more natural even. But it illustrates the point that when words aren't internalized, other, often simpler, words are used.

For me it's always been less of "lack of usage" and more of "no one I know talks like that". I start using a word often after I've seen it being used often, not after making myself use it a few times with a deliberate purpose of "internalising" it.

And this reminds me of how a few years ago I tended to use the word "humongous" a lot. But as time went on, I stopped using it and started always saying "huge" instead. It's not because I suddenly forgot that word, or un-"internalised" it :p It's because no one else was using it (hell knows where I picked it up in the first place).

I *trust* the words that first to come to my head when I want to say something, because they always will be the ones that are most commonly used (in the places where I hang out).

The idea of deliberately using a word (which is the idea I'm getting from people's posts) just for the sake of always having it on your mind, and ready to be called out and used, just seems so fake to me... If the word is widely used then it will be on your mind *anyway*. If everyone starts using a word I never heard about today, then I'm also going to start using it after I figure out how to use it properly. And if everyone stops using that word tomorrow, it's going to get thrown into the back of my mind, and I find that okay.

And there's nothing inherently wrong with using a simple word, especially if the more complicated one is not on your mind (which simply means that no one (you hang out with) ever uses it).

You're not supposed to force yourself to say anything. You're supposed to talk. Have conversations. To internalize the words USED in conversations so when you eventually try to have a conversation, you can, because you have internalized the words that NEED to be used.

Output shouldn't be used to internalize incorrect stuff (which won't happen for exactly the reasons you state: If no person uses a word in a conversation, you won't. It should be used to internalize correct stuff.

Besides, internalizing is always good. An internalized word is better than a non-internalized. It doesn't mean speaking inappropriately (you said humongous because you somehow felt like it, it wasn't because it was internalized), it just means all the words are there, readily available to you.

I think the bottom line is that everyone should use whatever method works best for them (as obvious as that seems), as we're all unique human beings with unique needs. But just because a method works great for you I don't think there's any need to treat it as gospel (not that anyone is). I don't know much about Khatz and Antimoon, and if their methods work for you them that's wonderful, but I think it'd be a mistake to think that other styles are inferior.

I have met many Americans that can speak Japanese indistinguishably from natives, and have talked to grad students in Japanese Literature Ph.D. departments whose knowledge was far, far beyond my own. Vocabularies over 100,000 words, knowledge of 30,000 kanji, etc. And most of those students went through formal education of the language. The most brilliant linguist of Japanese that I've ever met earned her doctorate in Japanese at Yale and is now doing more studies here at Stanford. She took a year for JLPT4, learned at a pace many here would consider slow, never used any SRS, mining, or any of these modern techniques, has never heard of AJATT, etc, and reached a level in the language where I can only understand one of every five words if she uses her full vocabulary.

So, I suppose my point is that there's no need to rush learning or to evangelize certain methods. What mostly baffled me I guess was when I read a little about AJATT and it seemed to preach against formal classroom education of the language and formalized grammar. That seems absolutely silly to me

Whatever works best for a certain person works best for that person. I think it's pretty useless to argue which is 'best' though! They all have their merits

Variety surely wins.

Some of us cannot apply to a university course to learn Japanese. I guess there are 2 or 3 japanese departments in my country and each of them accept only ~100 students each year.
Also if you want to do another course, like engineering or medicine or law, you won't be able to do it. You have to chose.
And not that college is the best way to learn Japanese. It might be for medicine or for law. But it certainly isn't for a language.

Some of us don't want to wait 2 years before being able to use the language, reading or watching something fun.

Some of us are so hungry for Japanese for japanese that 5 years to learn it is way too much time.

Maybe it is this hunger that is the secret of AJATT: The motivation you get from doing things you like from the beginning to the end.

The unschooling behind AJATT is another beautiful thing.
You only understand it after you try.
In my opinion, to learn how to learn is one of the best things that can happen to someone.
I had to endure 15 years of classroom before experiencing it, but now that I know it, I want to spread it to everyone.
School isn't always bad. It can be awesome, but it can be very bad. And it is compulsory. This is a fatal combination.

French is a language to be studied, while Japanese is a language to be spoken.

Try to translate an article from French to English with an automatic translator, and do the same with Japanese to English. The French one will most likely come out close to meaningful, while the Japanese one will be total nonsense. That's because of the difficulty in formulating the Japanese language - although its grammar rules are quite simple and regular, it's interpretation is uncommonly difficult.

The best Japanese courses are the ones where you spend a lot of time in a room with a native speaker and nothing but Japanese is spoken. With other courses that just involve textbook study, you will learn some things for sure, but a high level will only be reached with a lot of extra study outside of the classroom.

Although people who start from humble beginnings with Genki 1 study can become brilliant linguists, I think it's because of their own brilliance and hard work, not thanks to that very basic material.

In the Japanese courses I took in Japan you would get a 0 for the day if you spoke any English in class. Not that the teachers even spoke English anyways...

Actually, Japanese CAN be decently translated by a computer now: The solution being Google Translate. I'm one of those guys who always laughed at people who came to various Japanese forums saying "I tried to translate this Japanese by computer and I don't understand!"

But Google are quite amazing. From what I gather, they somehow search their databases for the most common translations of the words and phrases. And this works, to a scary degree. While it can easily fail simple sentences (it seems completely unable to translate 奪いたい), it can sometimes perfectly translate really hard sentences. It's not perfect, but for being such hard languages to translate between, it's extremely impressive.

Aijin Wrote:I think... ...

This is so true. I'm under the impression that most of the members on this forum is thinking the same way. The AJATT guy, Antimoon guys, and their faithful followers are bloggers. They exaggerate. Believing in them like your religious leader is stupider than complaining Shamwow isn't as Wow! as Vince claims, if you ask me.

Fortunately, most people are not that stupid. Most of us respect academia and traditional methods too, I think. At least I do. It's just conventional methods didn't work well for me. Maybe I'm too dumb to do school things. Maybe I'm too lazy to adopt "serious" methods. I just love the idea that learning should be fun.

So, who would regard Katsumoto as God? Who is evangelizing Antimoon?? I bet they are the kind of people who get trapped in every single scam. Of course, I recommend every serious learner take a look at their blogs. But I never see them as THE methods.

magamo Wrote:

Aijin Wrote:I think... ...

Fortunately, most people are not that stupid. Most of us respect academia and traditional methods too, I think. At least I do. It's just conventional methods didn't work well for me. Maybe I'm too dumb to do school things. Maybe I'm too lazy to adopt "serious" methods. I just love the idea that learning should be fun.

I agree completely with this. Ever since I discovered AJATT I haven't devoted a single minute of study to Japanese. Its not study anymore; its my fun. I just live it. Its my entertainment. Its what I do when I take a break from my other studies.

There is only so much study you can do in a day. But you can have fun all day long. Thats what I love about the AJATT mindset. It tells you to turn a study into a lifestyle. There's no reason you can't use traditional methods at the same time, of course, but I personally haven't felt the need to open my Uni textbook since I started. Too boring- and too slow! I would much rather read Harry Potter (in Japanese) or watch Death Note.

Aijin,

I agree with you about almost every subject except for langauge learning. I don't think we will ever be in a position to this way is the best for science, politics etc. However, we all learn out native language the same way. This way evidently works really really well regardless of the person (baring mental diseases). It is arguable that adults are different from childs, but aside from this, copying the way we learn our native language should lead to the same level of proficiency.

I have met over a thousand Japanese Engish students who have studied English for many years and only 2 seemed like English native speakers. They both had lived for many years overseas. The one I asked to about how she got good, said she just copied the people around her and didn't worry about grammar or formal learning so much. Much like the input method.

I suspect the people you mentioned have had huge amounts of Japanese input because they loved Japanese. They didn't just do the boring grammar and vocab homework but got stuck into the real thing. I believe we can say a lot of input is the only way (but beyond that there are many different methods and it is hard to say what is best..)

One of the best things I've learned (mostly) from the AJATT blog is not the AJATT method, it's the ability and curiosity to think, experiment and turn your methods upside down. That is a "superior" concept imo, and one to be evangelized!

Thora Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:*wanders off*

I hope you don't wander off indefinitely. Your ideas and perspective were often interesting (when I could decipher them)

Thanks. I do miss rambling incoherently about language acquisition sometimes when I'm not studying.

Ok, I'm a great believer in the AJATT method, and will start following it as soon as I finish RTK. However, I have 2 questions that are troubling me somewhat. Assuming I'll finish RTK by September, I'm visiting Japan in March 2010 and I want to be semi-conversationally fluent by then. But I don't see how AJATT is compatible with this -

- AJATT advocates just diving into random Japanese sentences from the beginning. Although *eventually* this will definitely lead to full fluency, in the meantime you will be learning a lot of random Japanese vocab and kanji readings that aren't necessarily useful in the short term. Wouldn't it be more useful to follow a structured path i.e. Minna No Nihongo 1, 2, 3 before diving into random sentences? Is this what the Japanese Core 2000 lessons on iknow or KO are designed to do?

- The method is based on random sentences + 24/7 random audio, idea being as you comprehend sentences you'll start hearing them in the audio and that will reinforce them. Wouldn't it be more logical to pick sentences from the same source (e.g. subtitles of The Matrix) whilst listening to related audio where you'll *definitely* hear examples of those words (e.g. Matrix audio), and only once you've gone through *every* sentence in that source, then move on? It would still be fun as long as the source material is fun..

Seems AJATT is crying out for a structured method and roadpath, with proper goals similar to this site.

aphasiac
I sentence pick my favorite shows and I also listen to the audiorips on my mp3 from time to time. It is more fun doing different materials though, doing the same thing over and over gets boring. Spread that material out.

I masturbate to japanese porn. I just thought I would throw that out there.