Jarvik7 Wrote:That said, I am not entirely against AJATT. Immersion is common sense and SRS is an obviously good thing. People have been doing "AJATT" for ages before Khatz even thought about learning Japanese. I just think Khatz himself has done nothing worthy of praise and am stumped at why everyone falls over themselves to lick his boots. At best he is a role model to show that yes foreigners can learn Japanese, but many have learned Japanese before him.

There would be no problem with me if you were totally against AJATT. It was just the relentlessness against the individual that upset me a little. I know what he's done for me, and it's not "nothing worthy of praise". I hope you will consider my point.

Jarvik7 Wrote:That was a nice ad hominem though

It that means it was a post "aimed specifically at someone", you're right, and I almost regret doing it as I know it's not nice. It was a moment of weakness, let's say.

ad hominem means attempting to win an argument by attacking the opponent. Examples:

"People who believe in UFOs are all crazy, so their arguments isn't worth listening to."
"You might think so, but you're stupid, so it doesn't matter."

Tobberoth Wrote:ad hominem means attempting to win an argument by attacking the opponent. Examples:

"People who believe in UFOs are all crazy, so their arguments isn't worth listening to."
"You might think so, but you're stupid, so it doesn't matter."

I see, thanks. I hope my posts don't look like I'm trying to win any argument though

Jarvik7 Wrote:Most people don't realize it because most people don't care about the cultural products of whatever country's language they are learning.

I agree that, for many (probably most) people learning a foreign language the problem is that they don't care enough about the cultural products to *want* to immerse themselves, even if they thought it was possible.

On the other hand though, I think there are probably quite a few people who *are* interested in the language, and who *are* interested in the culture- but who are completely oblivious to the potential of creating their own immersion environment. And its because people trust in the system of classroom learning. You highlighted the problem in your post

Quote:The problem is that they are STILL lazy and don't do any actual studying outside of what they need to pass the test

While you view this as a problem of laziness, I view it as one of ignorance.

Most people (even some of the ones who are serious about trying to learn) are stuck on the mindset that classes will provide you with everything you need to become fluent. This mindset is perpetuated by (most) classes, imo. Your teacher may tell you "Remember that you need to do your own study out of class" as my university does, but the impression that one is left with is that this study should be textbook focused. "Further study" is defined as working ahead through the workbook, or reading the next few chapters of the textbook- I've never once been told to even *try* reading anything a native would. In fact, the notion that I would even be able to would be laughed at.

What you end up with is students who study for the class/tests because they think this is contributing towards their goal of fluency. The worst thing about this mindset is that the immersion environment becomes the goal (its something you can do when you are fluent) as opposed to being part of the learning process.

Who can blame people for being ignorant of the efficacy of constructing an immersion environment, when this is what they've been led to believe?

EDIT:Classrooms are a tool that you use on your journey towards fluency. As is the immersion environment. You know that, I know that, probably everyone on this forum thinks that. Many 'serious' students of languages will also know this too. Most people either don't know this or even if they did, they wouldn't care anyway.

What I'm trying to say is: there is a subset of people who *don't* know these things; but if they were told they would immediately start applying these methods. These people are serious about learning the language too, otherwise they would shrug off the immersion method- the problem was that they didn't even know it was possible.

Thats why I don't think immersion ('artificial immersion'/immersion environment, in the sense we use here on these forums) is a common sense concept.

Oops wall'o'text

If I may give my opinion.
I think Khatzumoto is one of the most modest guys I've ever read posts for.
Even if immersion is common sense, addressing common sense is one of the best things ever done, IMO, some of the greatest people in history didn't say/write new things, they just addressed things in a proper way, and that's a great thing by itself.
So khatz did a good job, maybe he's over praised, but I've never heard about sentences before knowing his website, and so many other people too.
I thank him for sharing his experience with us

I personally find him delightful. He often lampoons himself and how he is seen. EG.

Quote:A lot of people say a lot of nice things about me on this site. I’ve been called “insane” (I consider this a compliment), strong-willed, full of “willpower”, “obsessed”, determined, “Naruto-like”, even a “genius”. Sometimes it goes to my head and I start to believe that I might actually be a special person. But I know it’s not true.

Don’t believe the hype. I am none of these things. I’m just as unique as all the other n billion people in the world, which is to say not at all . For starters, did you know I wear dark boxers so the pooh stains don’t stand out? Where’s the genius in that? I’m writing this on a massive 8-foot-long beanbag lying almost vertical (look who can’t even get “vertical” and “horizontal” right!) because I’m too much of a bum to sit up. Where’s the determination in that? I have a really, really, really, hardcore peanut-eating habit — “just one mo’, baby!” Where’s the willpower in that? This isn’t me in my “off time”; this is me all the time. Forgetting to pay his power bill, wanting-to-write-more-manga, trying to train his cats in Confucian values, peanut-eating, pooh-stain Khatzumoto. This is the real freakin’ deal, and it’s neither smart, nor pretty, nor goal-oriented. I tell people “I have a lot of the same clothes”, but the fact is, I just don’t shower or change that often.

Pooh stains. No showers. Smells like victory.

I don't think he is always right, but he always makes his points in interesting ways

I'm having deja vu.

Just from reading through Khatz's blog, I could tell he was raised in the UK from the humour. I think it comes across as arrogant unless you realise most of it is actually taking pot shots at himself, and portraying himself as arrogant as an ironic joke.

So putting all the "you must do what i say" type posts as just him giving advice but having fun with it aside. It is a fantastic source of motivation, and has introduced a lot of people to SRS'ing, sentencing, Heisig, immersion and other things. That while used a lot already, are never really mentioned mainstream. You are given your verb list in classes and told to learn it and that's it. Nothing conversational other than 2 sentence answers about what your parents do for a living.

Before i discovered AJATT and by proxy this site, i was learning Japanese in 20 mins a day segements from my romaji beginner book "Teach Yourself Beginner's Japanese" which is just as poor as it sounds.

But now, I am mining sentences, i can read the occasional thing i spot in blogs by accident. I am finished RTK, and enjoying knowing the fact that aslong as i continue to work hard I will achieve a good grasp of the language in the (hopefully) near future.
on a side note, yesterdays reviews give me a hellish kicking.. i think i added the stuff too quickly without cementing it in my head, you live, you learn, you adapt i guess.

Jarvik7 Wrote:Most people don't realize it because most people don't care about the cultural products of whatever country's language they are learning.

I've never met a person learning French who was obsessed with French soap operas etc. They just dream about one day maybe moving to France and getting a romantic boyfriend who wears a beret. They don't imagine it's possible to immerse themselves at home because they don't really care about it. In that respect they are right, they can't immerse themselves because they don't want to. Even if they went to France they would likely form themselves a gaijin bubble.

And immersion is common sense? The thought of picking up a magazine or book in another language is generally associated with having reached a certain level in a language, not as the means to the end. Wasn't until French 4 that I, and the three others taking it, lol, learned the opposite is true.

Side note: I've never met anyone who was obsessed with foreign soap opera. The non-foreign variety alone is crappy enough for 10 languages. I have met people who are obsessed with the music, the art, and other aspects of the culture, though, not enough to sit and intentionally immerse themselves in it for several hours a day.

Jarvik7 Wrote:... the classes are filled with other lazy students who would have to all drop otherwise. Immersion is one of the best things to help you learn, but it's also not the only thing. Cue the expat who has been in-country for 35 years and can't say a word of Japanese. Immersion is only really possible/effective if you have genuine interest and the willingness to put in effort.

Little known fact: people don't generally like hard work.

That's true. They don't like hard work. However, people work hard. They get up virtually every day and work their asses off. What they don't like is to work hard with little reward. Delay of gratification is something talked about in business seminars, or not at all. It's a learned trait.

J7 Wrote:Using lots of kanji or 旧字体 on the internet means nothing. I can press the spacebar a lot too.

I missed this back there. This is funny because I just made an entire post on lang-8 where I used 鷲 instead of 儂, repeatedly. Only one person noticed it. I had to add the character to my IME, lol. Go figure...

I'm beginning to lean toward the thought that common sense is determined by the person using the word. For all the times I've heard the phrase used, there are few instances in which the fact said to be common sense seemed to be known by little more than a handful of people. So, it seems, it's less commonly sensed, and more a conclusion arrived at by logical/intelligent thinking, privilege, and or experience. "Seek and ye shall find."

Unfortunately, as it's been said before, most people assume that school is where they will learn. If they aren't learning it's because the subject is simply not their strong point. We've come to learn these notions are false. Everyone else, now, has to catch up. So, I'm with blackmacros on the idea that's its more ignorance than laziness.

J7 Wrote:Indeed, but he has been learning for a long time now (self described as completely fluent as of 2004 or so). He also seems to have the opinion that he is "finished" Japanese.

Never heard of completely fluent. It sounds silly. It's like wholly driving, or fully waiting.

I think you're making this guy seem wilder than he actually is. Either that or I'm oblivious to his godlike eagle . I see the eagle. I just don't think it large enough to be worth tearing down, assuming such a thing were possible on the internet.

nestor Wrote:I'm having deja vu.

As long as new people come and ask questions on this thread or old arguments are brought back up, you'll continue to experience deja vu here. There are far too many pages to sift through, so only those around since the beginning will know exactly what has an has not been discussed. Even if it has been discussed, these discussions serve to educate as well as provide insight about fellow members and their ideologies/learning techniques.

*erased joke about common sense*

Tobberoth Wrote:I've been saying it since I came to this site (I came to this site before AJATT): immersion is common sense. The whole idea of going abroad to learn a language comes from the simple fact that everyone knows you learn better and faster in an immersion environment. The difference is that going abroad is tons of fun in a billion ways. Forcing yourself to immerse at home isn't. That's why most people don't. They don't have the money nor the time to go abroad and learn and they are too lazy to change their environment at home.

You are confusing two different concepts of "immersion".

The commonly held view is that going to a foreign country helps you to learn a language because it forces you to do it - you have to learn to read & speak because otherwise you'll barely be able to survive, let alone form relationships. Both AJATT and Antimoon are totally against this kind of immersion because it leads to rushed output which is likely to contain errors. They give examples of immigrants living in foreign countries for decades and making the same elementary mistakes over and over again. Forced, improvisational output is bad.

The second concept of immersion is a radical idea and is neither "common sense" nor common, despite what a few people seem to think. Go to any university professor and tell them you're learning a language via 99.9% input and effectively zero output and he or she will urge you to stop immediately. Tell them you're copying native speakers all the time rather than making up your own original sentences and they'll urge you to stop immediately. The AJATT/Antimoon concept of immersion is so extreme that you'll have mastered over 10,000 sentences before writing a single one by yourself. In other words, it is the opposite of the commonly held view.

It's not a big deal, but I am surprised that the omnipresent 'veterans' here would rather repeat themselves than reference earlier posts, especially when there's little development or variation. + I don't know, as a new poster, if I'm going to invest time and energy in arguing on a given forum, I generally pore over the threads in question to get the 'feel' of a board and its members and to ensure I not only learn new things from past posts, but don't waste time with redundancies. Ah well, common sense, et cetera. I've lost interest in this forum again... hope everyone's studies are going well... *wanders off*

kazelee Wrote:I'm beginning to lean toward the thought that common sense is determined by the person using the word. For all the times I've heard the phrase used, there are few instances in which the fact said to be common sense seemed to be known by little more than a handful of people.

Common sense: based on a strict construction of the term, consists of what people in common would agree on: that which they "sense" (in common) as their common natural understanding.

What is commonly sensed is relative to the available information at the time and our sense perceptions' capacity to translate that information into realistic view. At one time it was only common sense that the Earth is flat or of course people would fall off into the Abyss.

nac_est Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:ad hominem means attempting to win an argument by attacking the opponent. Examples:

"People who believe in UFOs are all crazy, so their arguments isn't worth listening to."
"You might think so, but you're stupid, so it doesn't matter."

I see, thanks. I hope my posts don't look like I'm trying to win any argument though

This reminds me of a card I created for "ad hominem" from this image. I put on its back definitions and illustrative sentences from Oxford Dictionary of English.

I ran across the image in a thread on /b/ where trolls were trolling trolls trolling trolls in atrocious English. Their grammar was horrible, but the context was quite obvious.

nest0r Wrote:*wanders off*

I hope you don't wander off indefinitely. Your ideas and perspective were often interesting (when I could decipher them)

nest0r Wrote:Ah well, common sense, et cetera. I've lost interest in this forum again... hope everyone's studies are going well... *wanders off*

Cool man

kazelee Wrote:Side note: I've never met anyone who was obsessed with foreign soap opera.

ドラマ

magamo Wrote:I ran across the image in a thread on /b/

Ah, you see, there's your problem. Nothing good could possibly come from /b/! I must admit, however, that it was the /lang/ text board where I originally came across a link to AJATT, so perhaps I should be thankful to that god forsaken website, eh?

Also, I think some of you lot are forgetting that Khatzumoto is, essentially, a blogger. He does come across as egotistical and arrogant at times, absolutely, but making your personality and character known to your readers is simply part of getting your messages across as a writer. Personally, I find him to be a little much at times (especially the way he over-exaggerates his points), but the core of his messages, more often than not, contain a lot of wisdom and practical information that pretty much anyone can to put to use immediately.

I also don't believe that AJATT is a doctrine that must be followed to the letter, nor do I believe that Khatz intended it to be that way, either. He's but one of the several "teachers" I've learned a thing or two from along the way, but easily one of the most influential.

nest0r Wrote:It's not a big deal, but I am surprised that the omnipresent 'veterans' here would rather repeat themselves than reference earlier posts, especially when there's little development or variation. + I don't know, as a new poster, if I'm going to invest time and energy in arguing on a given forum, I generally pore over the threads in question to get the 'feel' of a board and its members and to ensure I not only learn new things from past posts, but don't waste time with redundancies. Ah well, common sense, et cetera. I've lost interest in this forum again... hope everyone's studies are going well... *wanders off*

OK. We are boring nestOr. Somebody signal the dancing squirrels to come in.

Jarvik7 Wrote:

kazelee Wrote:Side note: I've never met anyone who was obsessed with foreign soap opera.

ドラマ

Isn't ドラマ Japanese for Drama? A soap opera is like.. "Days of Our Lives" or "As the World Turns". I can't imagine learning a foreign language in order to watch a mother sleep with her sons girlfriend's brother, carry his baby in secret and arrange to have her husband killed by her suicidal daughter. (well when I put it like that it sounds interesting, sheesh. Maybe the problem is it's spread out over 8 years with horrible acting)

Welldone, お昼ドラマ (afternoon drama) are like American soap operas. The ones that show later and are more popular are much like the various dramas we have, and yes we use that word too. Gossip Girl is called a teen drama, but not a soap opera. Hope that helps you to get a better idea.

EDIT: I just realized I read your post wrong. I thought you were thinking that all dramas were like Days of Our Lives.

harhol Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:I've been saying it since I came to this site (I came to this site before AJATT): immersion is common sense. The whole idea of going abroad to learn a language comes from the simple fact that everyone knows you learn better and faster in an immersion environment. The difference is that going abroad is tons of fun in a billion ways. Forcing yourself to immerse at home isn't. That's why most people don't. They don't have the money nor the time to go abroad and learn and they are too lazy to change their environment at home.

You are confusing two different concepts of "immersion".

The commonly held view is that going to a foreign country helps you to learn a language because it forces you to do it - you have to learn to read & speak because otherwise you'll barely be able to survive, let alone form relationships. Both AJATT and Antimoon are totally against this kind of immersion because it leads to rushed output which is likely to contain errors. They give examples of immigrants living in foreign countries for decades and making the same elementary mistakes over and over again. Forced, improvisational output is bad.

The second concept of immersion is a radical idea and is neither "common sense" nor common, despite what a few people seem to think. Go to any university professor and tell them you're learning a language via 99.9% input and effectively zero output and he or she will urge you to stop immediately. Tell them you're copying native speakers all the time rather than making up your own original sentences and they'll urge you to stop immediately. The AJATT/Antimoon concept of immersion is so extreme that you'll have mastered over 10,000 sentences before writing a single one by yourself. In other words, it is the opposite of the commonly held view.

First of all, Antimoon and AJATT are full of crap. There is no valid proof, what so ever, that outputting early will lead to a bad and an unnatural end result. There is however lots of proof of people who have used output as a tool when learning, successfully. Bringing up the example of expatiates etc who don't give a crap isn't convincing in the slightest. Immersion is immersion. Forced or not.

You seem to have met a lot of really crappy teachers as well. No language teacher I've ever had would agree with what you wrote above. In fact, ALL of them would agree that the best way to learn a language is to use it. It is common sense. Pretty much every Swede knows English to a very high degree. Pretty much every Swede knows very well why: exposure. Ask any swede why they are good at English, and see if you can find a single one which tells you it's because of using good textbooks, or having fun exercises in school. It won't happen, we all know it's exposure. Our media is filled with English, constantly. I can't speak for Americans (from what I understand, it's quite rare to know a second language there), but at least in Sweden and most parts of Europe, it is indeed common sense. It's not revolutionary at all.

No sane person believes you learn a language by forcing yourself to say words in it. The point is that you are FORCED to being exposed.

Tobberoth Wrote:First of all, Antimoon and AJATT are full of crap. There is no valid proof, what so ever, that outputting early will lead to a bad and an unnatural end result. There is however lots of proof of people who have used output as a tool when learning, successfully.

That's because 99.99% of people use the latter method. There are bound to be more success stories when the ratio is 10000:1. Remember we are talking about a method to make you indistinguishable from a native speaker, not just fluent. All we have to go on is the fact that Antimoon are anti-output and the two guys who run it are genuinely indistinguishable from native speakers. Some native Japanese speakers on this forum have also said that Khatz is indistinguishable from a native. Their words, not mine. This would suggest that Antimoon and AJATT are worth bearing in mind if your goal is to be indistinguishable from a native speaker.

Tobberoth Wrote:No language teacher I've ever had would agree with what you wrote above. In fact, ALL of them would agree that the best way to learn a language is to use it.

...that's my point... language teachers would object to Antimoon & AJATT because if you follow them strictly you aren't using the language - you're absorbing it and experiencing it, but you aren't using it yourself. All university language courses involve output extensively. AJATT & Antimoon are anti-output.

Khaz has admitted several times to having outputted a lot of Japanese well before hitting 10 000 sentences. I know tons of people who are indistinguishable from native English speakers, all of them having gone through the same formal education.

Fact: Output, even forced such, doesn't mean you will be doomed to sound unnatural. Enough exposure teaches you right from wrong, regardless of mistakes you've made in the past.

Using the language is good. It internalizes it. Making mistakes is part of the journey, no one is perfect. Every single good football player has made mistakes. Every single good piano player has made mistakes. Why would language be any different? What separates success from failure is the acceptance that you're not perfect, and the will to improve. People who WANT to sound natural WILL sound natural because they will fix their errors. People who simply don't care will continue making the same mistakes.

EDIT: I don't even think Khaz is all that much against output per se. He's just making it very clear that output isn't very important, especially compared to recognition. I mean, that's sorta the idea with AJATT, you don't need to find people to output with, you just need to find enough sources of input. I think it's a great point. I just don't like when people try to make the case that early output ruins language learning when it clearly doesn't.

Khatz also makes the point that failure is good as long as its cheap. He says this mostly in relation to SRS'ing (input in other words- I don't think he does production stuff in his SRS). But it can apply equally to output.

As long as failure (making mistakes) is cheap then outputting is not something you should be afraid of. Making output failure cheap is just a matter of making sure you actively correct mistakes (most likely by asking a native speaker). The only way output could be bad for you is if you just keep practicing incorrect things without bothering to correct them.

Tobberoth Wrote:I just don't like when people try to make the case that early output ruins language learning when it clearly doesn't.

I'm not saying that. All I'm saying is that output isn't necessary to either obtaining fluency or being indistinguishable from a native, as AntiMoon has proven. There are different ways to learn and they all work differently for different people.

I don't think bad output is harmful, just that it's a waste of time. All that time you spend practising bad output could be spent mining more sentences or doing reps. This may seem like a minor detail but we're discussing a method which prides itself on efficiency above everything else. AJATT isn't about learning Japanese, it's about learning Japanese with the minimum amount of wasted effort. Making mistakes is ultimately wasted effort.

But I do suspect that AJATT and Antimoon exaggerate certain points in order to make their message clearer. If their articles said "do X, but Y and Z are perfectly legitimate" then they wouldn't attract as much attention. As long as you just think "hmmm this sounds pretty interesting" and not "this is the second coming of Jesus" then no harm is done. As I said in a previous post I believe the main benefit of AJATT is motivational - the method is what brings it all together under one roof.