Harhol: I get your point about distinguishing flaws and misconceptions.

* Flaws in the book? Discuss improvements.
* Misconceptions about the Heisig approach? Educate people (not = promote RTK).

But I think there's a third category as well:
* Disadvantages of the Heisig approach? Perceived flaws in the premise itself? Listen, remain open minded, perhaps discuss. Dissenters aren't [all] idiots.

mafried: I read about meditation once (that's as far as I got...). The author kept stressing that one shouldn't start telling friends about it and encouraging them to try. I didn't get it. Same idea I guess.

Thora Wrote:But I think there's a third category as well:
* Disadvantages of the Heisig approach? Perceived flaws in the premise itself? Listen, remain open minded, perhaps discuss. Dissenters aren't idiots.

Yeah clearly I have no problem with someone questioning the overall merit of RTK in relation to traditional study methods. Is it really worth it? Is it time well spent? But the thread which was linked on the previous page didn't contain any of that. It was all about how someone who'd read Heisig wouldn't be able to read Japanese, therefore making the book worthless. Two posters suggested that the ability to read a children's book in Japanese after eight months of full-time study is impossible. Surely this indicates the extent of their irrationality?

I think Thora made a lot of good points, and sometimes I think people on this forum could be a bit more open minded, too. One thing I've learned at the How-to-learn-any-language forum is that there is no single right way to learn a language, and that successful language learners have taken very different paths on their road to fluency.

Hmm. Well, I'm making a reply as well. Everyone can check it out if you want, on the other website.



Edit:

Just a small comment, I'm really impressed with the quality of English we speak with on these forums. Most of the time, on so many other forums that I've been on, it is in conversational and misspelled English. I love logging on here without having to read "ur mehtod of lerning is liek...woah". Just a small and random comment of the day.

Harhol - Fair enough. Revised version: "dissenters aren't [all] idiots". I didn't read the entire thread - some posts were rather l-o-n-g. But I did read the post that said, "Have we been linked to another forum or something? Where are these people coming from?"

Grey isn't particularly sexy. It doesn't create a buzz like black and white. Which reminds me - since we're in the AJATT thread (?) - I'd like to throw some respect Katzumoto's way. His recent 'more grey' approach makes some of the previous criticisms of his site obsolete.

Brokenvai Wrote:Hmm. Well, I'm making a reply as well. Everyone can check it out if you want, on the other website.



Edit:

Just a small comment, I'm really impressed with the quality of English we speak with on these forums. Most of the time, on so many other forums that I've been on, it is in conversational and misspelled English. I love logging on here without having to read "ur mehtod of lerning is liek...woah". Just a small and random comment of the day.

wat r u tlakin bout

I was reading in another topic that someone said that Khatzumoto uses Kanji too often. Is this true? Also, if anyone knows, could you point out any examples?
Thanks for your time.

eroichigo Wrote:I was reading in another topic that someone said that Khatzumoto uses Kanji too often. Is this true? Also, if anyone knows, could you point out any examples?
Thanks for your time.

He uses traditional kanji. He also uses them for words that are not written in kanji in contemporary Japanese. Aijin's posts in kanji particles thread pretty much explain what he's doing. Some native Japanese speakers still write that way, and it's a matter of preference. But it's definitely not what your average Japanese would do.

Brokenvai Wrote:Just a small comment, I'm really impressed with the quality of English we speak with on these forums. Most of the time, on so many other forums that I've been on, it is in conversational and misspelled English. I love logging on here without having to read "ur mehtod of lerning is liek...woah". Just a small and random comment of the day.

you've clearly never tried reading an msn message from me when im tired.. that'd blow your mind with the errors you'd think i was a beginner in english sometimes.

It's not incorrect, but it's also not natural. Normally Japanese writers will kanji-fy a usually-kana word for artistic effect, but doing it to every word that can possibly have kanji just gives the same effect as writing everything in italics or bold or capital letters.

Knowing when one should use kanji is an important part of knowing a kanji, just like the 書き順 or the reading. Using tons of 旧字体 and putting everything into kanji is an attempt to show off, but ironically it gives the appearance of him knowing less.

Brokenvai Wrote:Just a small comment, I'm really impressed with the quality of English we speak with on these forums. Most of the time, on so many other forums that I've been on, it is in conversational and misspelled English. I love logging on here without having to read "ur mehtod of lerning is liek...woah". Just a small and random comment of the day.

I think when one is speaking about something academic (such as learning/education), one should speak in an educated manner. There have been posts here in the past that were written in horrible SMS/IM-speak, and the general reply was "you should learn English before you move onto something else". Forums have edit buttons and you should have time to compose your message since it isn't time-constrained like IM, so the English should be halfway decent (assuming you're a native). On a side note I'm always impressed by the English ability of continental Europeans on the internet. It makes me depressed about the state of second/foreign language education in Canada and the US though.

Great answers so quickly. Thanks guys.

eroichigo Wrote:I was reading in another topic that someone said that Khatzumoto uses Kanji too often. Is this true? Also, if anyone knows, could you point out any examples?
Thanks for your time.

Yes, and it is a little annoying to read imho. I would definitely not use his sentences for my SRS

eroichigo Wrote:I was reading in another topic that someone said that Khatzumoto uses Kanji too often. Is this true? Also, if anyone knows, could you point out any examples?
Thanks for your time.

Nah, Khatsumoto is uses kanji like normal, it's the rest of Japan that needs to catch up.

J7 Wrote:On a side note I'm always impressed by the English ability of continental Europeans on the internet. It makes me depressed about the state of second/foreign language education in Canada and the US though.

I think it's annoying most of the time. Sure there are some that have good vocabulary, but I've met more than a few who've made me want to bang the keyboard on my head, lol. The gratuitous use of the word "so" really twists my nipples. But this "so" thing applies to most non-natives not just Europeans. One can almost hear the accent whilst reading. It is a feeling that is not so nice, yes?

It's not so uncommon for Canadians to say it either.

[twist]

Thora Wrote:It's not so uncommon for Canadians to say it either.

[twist]

先輩！恥ずかしいわ。

*blushes like a wide-eyed, blue-haired schoolgirl*

Jarvik7 Wrote:It's not incorrect, but it's also not natural. Normally Japanese writers will kanji-fy a usually-kana word for artistic effect, but doing it to every word that can possibly have kanji just gives the same effect as writing everything in italics or bold or capital letters.

Knowing when one should use kanji is an important part of knowing a kanji, just like the 書き順 or the reading. Using tons of 旧字体 and putting everything into kanji is an attempt to show off, but ironically it gives the appearance of him knowing less.

Hmm, I've never thought of comparing it to italics/bold before. Very interesting and true thought. Kanji-forms and traditional characters do serve a wonderful purpose in literature, and there are some authors who use certain forms to provide a certain gleam on the word in specific prose. It's a talent in itself. Overuse of this technique not only dulls the effect, but turns it into an annoyance rather than a flair.

However, traditional characters and kanji-forms can act as a footprint in writing-styles. One of my favorite writers always uses 櫻 rather than 桜, and another poet is memorable to me because he used 龝 instead of 秋 in his works. One of my old friends used the traditional characters for everything, and the kanji-forms for everything (except particles), and it really created a very distinct, memorable style. Everyone always remembered him because of how striking it was, simply because it's so different from the norm.

But, as you said, such overuse isn't 'natural', and in Japan I feel the presence of fear and negativity associated with something being 'against the norm' much more than I've experienced here in the US.

Personally, I think everyone should develop their own personal style over time. I always use 在る，有る　and 或る because they eliminate the ambiguity that the hiragana form presents. 居る I only use for emphasis. I alternate between traditional/simplified forms every once in a while simply for a change, as it's nice to shake things up once in a while. In other cases its personal preference: 竜 looks less beautiful to me than 龍. And some of the simplified characters may have less strokes, but I think they're more difficult to write logically (窗 is easier for me to speed-write than 窓 even if it's a few more strokes)

Spending time in Taiwan might have brainwashed me though; I got lectured quite a bit on the evils of simplified characters, haha

So it's more a case of Khatzumoto trying to show off and coming across as an idiot than him actually doing anything wrong?

It sounds like those people who try to sound like Oscar Wilde on IM. "Stupendous old chap!" Oh who am I kidding, I am one of those people.

harhol Wrote:So it's more a case of Khatzumoto trying to show off and coming across as an idiot than him actually doing anything wrong?

It sounds like those people who try to sound like Oscar Wilde on IM. "Stupendous old chap!" Oh who am I kidding, I am one of those people.

How do you come across as an idiot by using Kanji "more" than people expect? I guess those fellas who like to use advanced words in English would be total asses then.

Common. It's really not that important if you can read whatever he writes. If you can't, it just means you need to study more.

There's nothing 'wrong' with it, but sometimes the less correct forms become so widely used that they become more natural than the (arguably) more correct forms. Think of 'good' and 'well' as an example. Most Americans seem to be so used to using 'good' when the gramatically correct choice is 'well' that if you use the correct word they feel like it's less natural.

I agree with the poster above me: it seems demeaning to simplify your writing level just so more people can understand you. The less people that use complex words or forms, the faster they eventually die off into complete obscurity.

I don't know about this 'Khatzumoto' in specific, since I've never seen him type, but there are definitely some learners who try to show off their knowledge and end up over-doing it. As the other poster said, one important aspect of kanji is to know when to use them and when not to. If someone does have a very advanced knowledge of the language and they still choose to do it out of preference, then that's great. I personally feel like it's a shame that much of the Japanese language is being 'dumbed down' (I don't mean to seem elitist, but I do get a little annoyed speaking to teenagers after reading old literature. The difference is sometimes jarring enough to make you weep for the fate of the generation )
I think it does limit the use of the language, as there are many words which don't have simpler translations, and which can't be read by uneducated Japanese. A lot of Japanese people don't even know what タル adjectives are, for example!

kazelee Wrote:How do you come across as an idiot by using Kanji "more" than people expect? I guess those fellas who like to use advanced words in English would be total asses then.

Using lots of kanji or 旧字体 on the internet means nothing. I can press the spacebar a lot too. Anyways the way he randomly mixes politeness levels and dialects definitely gives the appearance that while he may know a lot of Japanese, he doesn't know how to use it or even really understand it. All of those dialects and politeness levels and 旧字体 and kanjifications just occupy the same brainspace - Japanese. It gives the air of an expat who has never studied Japanese for a day, but just picked up bits and pieces from girlfriends and yakuza movies.

Made up example「ふざけんニャァよ！兎に角、拙者は大學生じゃねえんで御座るべ、ピョンピョン！」

Aijin Wrote:A lot of Japanese people don't even know what タル adjectives are, for example!

Weren't they taught 古文? I certainly learned that in my classical class.

「Khatzは堂々たる學者成らず」har

Jarvik7 Wrote:

Aijin Wrote:A lot of Japanese people don't even know what タル adjectives are, for example!

Weren't they taught 古文? I certainly learned that in my classical class.

「Khatzは堂々たる學者成らず」har

It's not even 古文. For example, 99.99% of adult Japanese would understand 学生たるもの、勉強に打ち込むべし！. I'd say no one would consider the sentence 古文. Can't Aijin's friends understand その状況たるや、まさに地獄。?? I think even 5 year olds can understand the sentences as long as they were raised in Japan...

Jarvik7 Wrote:Anyways the way he randomly mixes politeness levels and dialects definitely gives the appearance that while he may know a lot of Japanese, he doesn't know how to use it or even really understand it. All of those dialects and politeness levels and 旧字体 and kanjifications just occupy the same brainspace - Japanese. It gives the air of an expat who has never studied Japanese for a day, but just picked up bits and pieces from girlfriends and yakuza movies.

Could you give a real example and explain what's so bad about his writing?

You're being very critical about something which seems to be a semantic difference more than anything. We've gone from "he uses kanji too often" to "it gives the air of an expat who has never studied Japanese for a day". If you're going to make accusations like "[he] doesn't know how to use [Japanese] or really understand it" then it's only reasonable for us to expect at least one example.

The guy got a highly competitive job by interviewing entirely in Japanese and made his dream move at age 22. His methods were unconventional but clearly very effective. I mean he's super arrogant, even for a blogger, but in some respects I think he's earned the right to be. Regardless of how much he's embellished or made up, he's a success story.

You seem to dislike him rather a lot, though....

IT jobs don't require a high level of Japanese proficiency, even if the office is a Japanese environment. If you check job hiring sites many just ask for JLPT3 or "basic level".

What I meant by the girlfriends & yakuza movies bit is that he seems to be parroting stuff he hears without really understanding what kind of language it is (politeness level, regional dialect, old-style language, age specific language, social dialects, etc). Granted I don't follow his blog, but every time I've gone to his page the text was like that. I would give some examples, but I really don't want to go read his writing. It makes my eye twitch (not really). I don't see what it would prove to copy one of his posts and pick it apart piece by piece anyways.

I dislike his attitude. I also disagree with much of his advice. Many of his arguments are from a position of total ignorance (esp. regarding grammar or classes). It has nothing to do specifically with his Japanese ability. Plenty of people make mistakes on this forum and you don't see me picking them apart. Basically, if he wants to act like a god, he'd better be god-like.

magamo Wrote:I think even 5 year olds can understand the sentences as long as they were raised in Japan...

Most people will understand the common ones of course (堂々, etc) but usually only the ones that have become fundamental vocabulary to the point where many people begin to actually mis-treat them as ナ adjectives.

Less common ones such as 絢爛華麗 tend to go over peoples' heads.

Fair point. To someone who already knows the language his tone and attitude are probably annoying. I can definitely see that. But for someone with no idea where to start, his writing is highly motivational and fills you with confidence. That's the greatest strength of the site, I think - it gets you from the "I'm gonna learn Japanese" stage to the "Outta my way motherfucker, I'mma learning Japanese!" stage. Speaking from experience, I had planned to learn Japanese since July last year but only after reading AJATT did I actually do it.

It wouldn't surprise me if parts of the site are fabricated specifically for the purpose of being motivational. His anti-grammar and anti-class rhetoric is also refreshing for those of us who believe(d) that languages absolutely must be learned the old-fashioned way. Of course you eventually come to realise the importance of learning grammar and the extent to which he's been creatively bullshitting, but only after you've actually started.

Anyway, I'll always admire him because he's the reason I actually got past that mental barrier and started learning. Otherwise I'd have spent all day sitting around thinking about learning rather than actually doing it (possibly forever, who knows). In that sense AJATT worked for me. I left it behind a while ago, and I don't read it any more, but without it I'd still be nowhere.