johnzep: Here's an example of an earlier card that I created myself.

Quote:Q: 子供だけでなく大人まで、そのゲームを楽しんだ。

A: こども　だけでなく　おとな　まで、その　ゲーム　お　たのしんだ。

Children [not just, but also] adults [omg this] that game [obj] enjoyed.

Not only the children, even the adults enjoyed (playing) that game.

AAP: まで: indicates the degree of a condition by citing an example (eg: it wasnt just cold, it was so cold my glasses froze over)

Question is just the sentence. The answer section has the hiragana. Optionally, a section by section breakdown of the sentence. Then, the English translation as provided by the source. Finally, if applicable, an explanation of the grammar point being discussed from the source material. I've gotten the majority of my sentences from textbooks at the moment so I tend to add that final one. If you were mining from movies or books or something, I guess you wouldn't have that benefit.

Mind you, that's just how I did it for the first couple of hundred until I became, uhhh, not so intimidated by J sentences. You may want to add more info to the answer section, or perhaps simplify them. Also, when starting out, I wasn't looking for sentences with specific words in them. Instead I was taking the easy sentences from textbooks and absorbing the vocab from them steadily. I do try to pick out sentences with words that I've not seen before though, which keeps my vocab growing.

Nowadays becuase I'm doing J->J, I generally only put the original sentence, the hiragana and a page reference to a textbook from which I got it from. (In case I have a complete meltdown and forget the entire meaning...) If the sentence contains a new word I've not seen, I look it up in an online dictionary and paste the definitions (in Japanese) in the answer section as well.

taijuando: you need to be certain that your source material is solid, grammatically correct Japanese. As learners, we aren't in a position to be able to tell if a sentence is odd or just plain wrong. So take them from dictionaries or textbooks, movies or TV shows if you're looking for more casual speech. Or even news broadcasts with transcriptions are good too.

But yeah, as everyone keeps mentioning, the earlier you ditch English, the better off you'll be.

sounds good...with anki it generates a hiragana equivalent of the kanji already....how do you get j to j sentences that are different from each other .but have similar meanings... or do you????.....

I haven't picked J->J sentences which have been similar in meaning just yet. Although, if you get up a copy of A Dictionary Of Basic Japanese Grammar, or, All About Particles, you'll find heaps of example sentences that contain sentences similar in meaning. And they explain the grammar points as to how and why they differ. Very valuble information in those books.

To be honest, those two books I've used more than anything thus far.

And all due respect to resolve, but with Anki's auto-hiragana, just be sure to double check each one before adding it. I remember trying Anki a while ago and it displayed the wrong kana for 今日 once. Though, I manually enter mine and I still find I make errors in the transcription... urgh.

how does this "dictionary approach" provide for a correct pronounciation? pitch accent often shifts from one syllable to another once a word is used in a phrase. without audio i think this method is not very suitable for beginners (although the ajatt website suggests to follow this method).

The AJATT site also prescribes an audio immersion environment. It is called All Japanese All the Time not just for the sentences.

aircawn: the documentation in Anki says: 'Note that the automatic generation of meaning is not perfect, and should be checked before adding cards.' - so go easy. :-)

While there are a number of very good ideas in AJATT, I think the idea of avoiding your native tongue, even when you don't know enough of the foreign language to describe the idea appropriately, is pretty counterproductive. When I get some free time, I want to write a page describing my own experiences teaching and studying.

(examples like http://www.antimoon.com/how/input-boydell.htm don't really prove a point - this person had been exposed to language for 30 years, and it was their first language!)

I was looking into the AJATT method, I'd started saving sentences from a JLPT grammar site. I didn't enter them in mnemosyne, though. I think just reading htem now and then would be good enough(I have so much to put into mnemosyne already, with vocabulary).

Then I found something much better than example sentences...actually reading Japanese. One of my main reasons for learning to read Japanese is because I want to read fiction, so I found some nice short stories and started reading them with rikaichan. Instead of extracting sentences, I read the whole thing, and then read it again later. So far there's been a good amount of word repetition, and it's much more enjoyable. It's leisure + learning instead of just studying. And it's natural Japanese, not made easier like textbooks(of course, if your a beginner, this would probably be too hard).

That can be fun, but without an SRS, many words that only repeat a few times in a story (and not in subsequent stories) get lost to memory. This can be beneficial sometimes (automatic prioritization of the most important stuff) and sometimes you just have to enjoy material instead of using it as study material. But by keeping a highlighter handy (or using rikaichan's "save entry to file" feature), you can also ensure that useful looking phrases can be committed to long-term memory. I actually changed the rikaichan sourcecode to make the spacebar save the currently displayed term to my dictionary file, so I can easily input it into an SRS later. In the longer term, I'd like to hack rikaichan so that it saves more context (the current sentence + a link to the document).

uberstuber Wrote:The AJATT site also prescribes an audio immersion environment. It is called All Japanese All the Time not just for the sentences.

True, but you don't have audio that goes along with the sentences. So you have to hope to come across the words or phrases in the anime/drama/movies/music you listen to. Even then you might find the word slightly hard to recognize for your ear; because you didn't hear the word when you first learned it and because it will be mixed in with a lot of words you don't know.

Using an SRS isn't the only way to remember stuff. Sometimes certain words stand out; I've heard them before, or I knew the word and the kanji, but not together. I also increase my English vocabulary simply by reading...
I might write down some words later, but like I said, I already have loads of vocabulary to learn. I just find that by reading Japanese fiction on the side, I get extra learning without even feeling it, really.

Quote:While there are a number of very good ideas in AJATT, I think the idea of avoiding your native tongue, even when you don't know enough of the foreign language to describe the idea appropriately, is pretty counterproductive. When I get some free time, I want to write a page describing my own experiences teaching and studying.

Yeah. I kind of agree and disagree at the same time LOL......

I agree because how otherwise are you going to explain the concept.
But then I also disagree since you'll tend to overtranslate or apply concepts or sentence structure in your native language in ways that don't make sense in Japanese. A Japanese person's concept of the same object can be different even though they are talking about the same word.

Personally, I think just learning Heisig and reading a lot is enough.
You can infer everything from context. Then, you can experiment by
applying the same thought patterns to your speech and see how people react.
Don't just copy the words themselves, but also the way the concept is explained.

Always ask yourself:
What environment is the speaker in?
What relationship does the speaker have the other people?
How does their speech reinforce or indicate their relationship?
What are some other ways they could have said the same thing? Do I think they are different?

Internalize this stuff and experiment. Even when it turns out you are wrong, you'll remember it because you were wrong.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that Japanese words have no real meaning.
They symbolize concepts or functions, but the words that signify these concepts can have infinite variety.

Focus on the concepts and not the words themselves.

I for one am a fan of AJATT because its a "this is how I got here" site and not a "this is what you have to do" site. His ability in Japanese is backed up with examples. No one can say it isn't a good method unless they tried it and failed, or tried it and found it inferior to another method that they used successfully. Even then criticism can only be taken in the context of the particular person offering the criticism.

On another note, here is a great example of a word where J-J worked for me:

活躍（かつやく）: WWWJDIC offers "activity"; goo offers "activity. ・～する　be active ((in)); play an active part ((in)).; only ALC goes out on a limb and offers anything close to the real meaning ?good showing // great success // success?

It wasn't until I looked at the Japanese definition that I finally got it:
めざましく活動すること．

I think that definition is clear and could be understood by someone with only a basic grasp of Japanese.

But for every easy to understand definition, I could give you an example of something that is not clear :-)

The point is to be pragmatic. "No English" rules prevent such pragmatism. I'll write more later today.

Edit: oops. "No Japanese" should have read "No English"

starting out I'm just trying to make an effort of "can I use japanese for this card?" Sometimes I can, sometimes I can't.

And at this point, if I need any explanation of the japanese definition, I'll use English. Having Japanese definitions of definitions of definitions would be too much ^_^

resolve Wrote:The point is to be pragmatic. "No Japanese" rules prevent such pragmatism. I'll write more later today.

Well I don't see it as a "'No Japanese' rule" as much as I think the method suggests "remove English from the equation as soon as possible". It is true that you can find a counterexample, indeed I could provide many of my own. I was just demonstrating that J-J is not something to be written off, which would be equally impractical. For the record I don't follow the AJATT method to the letter. I do see a lot of merit in what Khatzumoto says though, and more importantly, since he has proven his ability to use Japanese fluently on his own site, I trust him. I take what I like of his and many other different methods to tailor my studies to fit my lifestyle and personality. In fact I think he even suggests that as well. Too often, people on the side of a mountain shout "You're climbing wrong!" I have found that it is better to listen to the advice of the people who are already at the top. Interestingly, they also tend to shout less. They say things like, "I made a mistake here so be careful" rather than just flat out "No".

One of the things that I found most meaningful to me was this line from Khatzumuto:
Perhaps it's not so much that we "learn" a language as it is that we become familiar with it; we get used to it.

I can see, were I to follow his method religiously, I could accomplish just that.

i think it's good to work on many tracks....i'll practice writing and saying phrases aloud from anki, get tired of that and just work on saying phrases out loud... then I go through my various books (Oxford Beginner's Japanese, Kanji Power, Japanese the Mangaway, or any textbook for sample sentences) until I get tired of that....sometimes it's good just to read a manga without a dictionary and just try to figure out the meaning using my knowledge of kanji and slowly growing vocabulary...if I had to put everything into the SRS I might become a rather resistant reader....when I get tired of reading I watch NHK (TV Japan)....when I get tired of NHK....I watch a Japanese movie off netflix....when I'm really tired I go to bed

Okay, this is the product of a few days of research and work, but hasn't received much proofreading. Comments welcome!

http://repose.cx/onlearning/

Resolve: your article is very interesting! thumbs up.
However, my previous comment on AJATT is still hanging in the air: according to me beginners definitely need audio (unless that is not your goal of course) – and by audio I do not mean listening to the Japansese news or watching anime, but audio that goes along with the sentences. As cracky put it (commenting on uberstuber):

cracky Wrote:

uberstuber Wrote:The AJATT site also prescribes an audio immersion environment. It is called All Japanese All the Time not just for the sentences.

True, but you don't have audio that goes along with the sentences. So you have to hope to come across the words or phrases in the anime/drama/movies/music you listen to. Even then you might find the word slightly hard to recognize for your ear; because you didn't hear the word when you first learned it and because it will be mixed in with a lot of words you don't know.

so I have been interested in the AJATT method for a while, and recently started with J->E sentences in Anki. I have entered about 300 sentences, mostly from Tae Kim and Genki 2. So far, I have definetly seen a good deal of vocabulary aquisition, especially kanji readings. I think that everything else aside, for kanji readings, learning them from sentences in srs is one of the most painfree, yet effective ways I have found. I find myself, firstly remembering the pronuncitation because A) i know the word, just not the kanji so from kind of remembering the sentence i remember the word, or B) thanks to the wonders of srs, just picking up the word from seeing it a couple of times after failing the sentence. then, later i definetly notice that i start to recognize the word in other sentences.

however: it is definetly not true that just sentences will do anything for you, (as some people seem to think the AJATT site is trying to suggest). i think that because this idea of 10,000 sentences is so different than anything (at least for me) we have heard or seen about language learning, it is the only thing that people remember. however, i think that the site's suggestions as a whole are a lot more important to look at than just the sentences:
if you go look at AJATT carefully, you will notice parts about: A) total immersion. B) finding native speakers to talk to. i think that without A and B or some substitute for them the sentences are useless. however, out of A, B and sentences, sentences are by far the easiest to start doing for a busy person! so everyone starts the sentences and forgets the rest of the advice (or doesnt forget it, but recognizes that it is just impossible in their lives). i think that the biggest strength AND failing of the AJATT website is how strongly he argues for his method .. (sure, he has the parts about fitting the method to the person), but after reading the website you get the feeling that his method is the only way to learn japanese.. for example, a lot of people probabbly disagree with me here, but i think that classes are a perfectly normal way to learn a language, as long as you dont expect that just by being able to complete the homework and pass the tests you will become fluent. however, they sometimes act as great guidelines for people like me who are motivated, but have a hard time sitting down and doing painful things like memorizing.. sometimes its easier to memorize a list of words when you have a test the next day. and there is nothing wrong with that, as long as you apply that list of words to your eventual goal of actually learning real japanese: so go ahead and memorize those words, but then put them into your srs and review them throughout the semester. for me, that is one of the most effective ways to learn vocabulary, the combination of srs for retaining, but brute force memorization for initial learning.

but anyways, ive written too much, but as a final point, resolve your article on learning is great. as my japanese studies have picked up, i too have become interested in this sort of thing, and i think your article provides some much needed critical analysis of the really interesting things written about language learning on the web. i do take issue with your point on immersion and i would like to discuss this some:

resolve Wrote:The popularity of the immersion method has led to the irrational belief that one's native tongue will somehow spoil one's understanding of a foreign language. I can see where this comes from: many people have a tendency to assume that a foreign language acts like their native one, and by doing away with one's native language, such mistakes can be avoided. But unconditionally avoided one's native tongue is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

so, i am lucky enough to be a student with basically no responsibilities other than school and things that i have decided are worth my time, and i was lucky enough to attend an immersion program this summer. i started the 9 weeks knowing basically zero japanese, but finished having learned an amazing amount. i would attribute this to the massive amount of japanese that i heard, read, spoke, and wrote. the unconditional part certainly seemed frustrating at times, (for example, i still remember the moment when i realized that と言うのは was not a katakana-ized version of the english "do you know what" ) however, just buy using japanese all of the time, even when it was hard, it forced me to learn more. i think that if you can find a perfect balance, between just a little english, its ok, but i dont really think its possible.

this sad, i plan on using primeslur (or however its spelled) to suplement my classes next year at school.

sorry this is so long and kind of rambling.

lol. primeslur. For a programme that is supposed to help with your pronounciation being called Prime Slur would be a very ironic title. Its Pimsleur. The stuff is great. It's what got me started on Japanese. Without it, I never would have considered studying Japanese. Good luck with your studies.

speaking of getting good japanese example sentances from dictionaries does anyone know of any japanese to japanese dictionaries one can buy for a pc or ppc?

I know a lot of dicitonaries in print also publish them on cd roms in a widely used format called EP-Wing. I bought the Green Godess which is great but its from japanese to english and they dont do a monolingual.

Sanseido.net is quite good sometimes but its web based. Anyone know of any links to sites where i can download a good monodic.

skylarth: like the 25+ hour preschools I was describing, immersion is most effective when you have many hours in the immersed environment. I totally agree that you should avoid your native tongue in situations like that. Since I came to Japan, I have tried to avoid using any English when speaking outside too. I was mainly arguing for the legitimacy of using your native language as a tool when appropriate. Which leads me to..

thegeezer: The Green Goddess is an excellent source of examples. The examples were compiled by native Japanese, doing their best to collect enough example sentences to demonstrate the full range of meanings a word has. For example, have a look at the definition for 蒔く in the Green Goddess and Daijirin (arguably the best big ja-ja dict for foreigners):

http://repose.cx/dump/maku.png

The (2) nuace in Daijirin is somewhat abstract - it's not clear if the phrase can be used to describe both positive and negative events. Even with all the English from the GG definition removed, the choice of examples makes it much easier to understand how the word is used.

So by all means pick up Daijirin if you haven't already (it's a good dictionary, and it's also available in EPWING format), but don't let GG go to waste just because it contains English in it. :-)

For anyone needing audio for their sentences I'll have to shill for the Assimil Japanese with Ease course one more time. I believe this set is ideally suited for those choosing to use the Heisig/10,000 Sentence method. The two volume course contains dialogs given in kana/kanji with furigana and romaji on the left hand side, followed by both word-for-word and colloquial translations on the right hand side. The sentences start off very simple at the beginning and gradually increase in complexity. The course also comes with audio CDs of the dialogs spoken by native speakers which I highly recommend. Right now I'm going through the course and entering the dialogs into an SRS with each lesson, and by the end of the course I will have over 1000 sentences. The sentences get quite difficult at times, and should you master them all I believe you will be well prepared to handle sentences from other sources like dictionaries, grammar books.

sheetz Wrote:For anyone needing audio for their sentences I'll have to shill for the Assimil Japanese with Ease course one more time. I believe this set is ideally suited for those choosing to use the Heisig/10,000 Sentence method. The two volume course contains dialogs given in kana/kanji with furigana and romaji on the left hand side, followed by both word-for-word and colloquial translations on the right hand side. The sentences start off very simple at the beginning and gradually increase in complexity. The course also comes with audio CDs of the dialogs spoken by native speakers which I highly recommend. Right now I'm going through the course and entering the dialogs into an SRS with each lesson, and by the end of the course I will have over 1000 sentences. The sentences get quite difficult at times, and should you master them all I believe you will be well prepared to handle sentences from other sources like dictionaries, grammar books.

I have to agree, I'm really finding the assimil course very useful also. I've just reached the "active phase", which seems to be similar to the active recall that resolve discusses. For those that don't know after you finish the first volume and begin the second, you then also go back to the start of the first volume and look at only the english side and try to translate it into japanese.

wzafran Wrote:I do have one question though: won't such an active recall process (e.g. thinking from English to Japanese) impede your ability to think natively in Japanese? (As in, you would need to 'convert' an English thought into Japanese before wanting to express/say/write something in Japanese, instead of thinking in Japanese and going straight to the heart of the matter.) And for the record, how has it worked for you now?

You wouldn't have to go from English to Japanese unless you chose to do so.

resolve Wrote:Q: 駅、行く　(過去形） A: 駅に行った

Personally I use both types of sentences in my SRS.

Briefly, passive helps me pick up readings and get the gist of what's going on in sentences, that to paraphrase Krashen, might be considered L+2. I often think of these flashcards when I'm having a conversation where I could use one of the sentences but I just can't get them out. That said, one can motor through these kinds of sentences in one's SRS just getting a feel for the language.

While I don't use cards like resolve's example above, in preparing for the JLPT this year I have a load of cloze sentences where I have to actively recall the grammar nugget for that sentence. The beauty of these cards is that I am much more able to produce my own sentences with these structures in conversation.