Quote:It's almost as though you have to make yourself a recluse from your normal life in order to study effectively.

You can take Japanese with you wherever you go. Mp3 players are like magic. If your family can afford to access the internet, you can afford a cheap mp3 player.

If the slow walk up the mountain is more your style check out:

http://www.iknow.co.jp (you work at your own pace)


If you have a problem with obtaining media,

http://radiotime.com/genre/c_349/Japanese_Talk.aspx

You can record audio from Japanese radio stations using this program:

http://audacity.sourceforge.net/



You can watch Japanese TV using this program:

http://www.v2p.jp/video/english/

or search for shows one this these sites:

http://www.pandora.tv (sometimes slow)
http://www.veoh.com (not the best but a wheel is wheel)
http://www.youtube.com (instead of checking out the latest in English check it out in Japanese)
http://www.nicovideo.jp (this site is purely in Japanese)

You can do a search around and find more sources

Quote:But I really do want to learn this language... But at what a cost.

You have to ask whether you want to learn the language or you just like the idea of learning the language. It's almost like getting married. You're gonna live with this language for the rest of your life. If you neglect it you will drift apart. Even if you spend your entire life with it you will still have only cracked the surface....blahblahblahblah.... you get the point.

Thank you all for your encouraging comments! The only reason I posted in the first place is because I plan to take up study once again.

And Kazelee, that Keyhole software is absolutely amazing and exactly what I've been searching for. This will be tremendously useful (and entertaining of course!)


Again, I thank you for boosting my enthusiasm, everyone.

I'm using Anki; am I being very thick or is there not a way to have Anki test you randomly on both Q-A and A-Q during reviews? I'd like to mix the two up so I get the bost of both worlds but I haven't found a way of doing so.

The only solution I've found is to go to Settings - Deck Properties - Click Edit - Card Templates, and then change around (Front) and (Back) in the text fields. Problem is then I have to change it back again when I want to work the other way round.

Is anyone able to offer advice? Cheers.

Pete, how are you planning to do these: English to Japanese and Japanese to English?

While I recommend not doing that for the most part (a few exceptions), it's easy to in Anki.

In Anki, you have deck properties option. On the first screen you should have a choice to add or edit a model. Edit a model (usually Japanese). Go to the second tab, and you can add a card type. If you have the generic card type, one is production and one is recognition (disabled). Now, just enable the recognition cards.

Final step is edit your cards, select them all then in the menu select "add missing cards" and choose 'recognition'.

You should now have two cards for every fact.

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=ejRkuX1RGf4

Khatz in motion!

I think he said he wants to open an youtube account in one of his posts.

Here it is:

http://de.youtube.com/user/Khatzumoto

(:

Interesting article:

http://www.victoria.ac.nz/home/about/new...wslabel=hn

See? Listening to all of that Japanese helps, even if you don't get it! (lol) Dunno about going so far as to do it in your sleep, though...

rich_f Wrote:Interesting article:

http://www.victoria.ac.nz/home/about/new...wslabel=hn

See? Listening to all of that Japanese helps, even if you don't get it! (lol) Dunno about going so far as to do it in your sleep, though...

Pretty interesting, though I'll take a wait and see approach in regards to the 'neural tissues' being formed. It's true that we can do things like 'ear training', though, so I can imagine them being part of the same phenomenon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ear_training

I wonder how long till resolve adds pitch recognition to Anki. ^_-

rich_f Wrote:Interesting article:

http://www.victoria.ac.nz/home/about/new...wslabel=hn

See? Listening to all of that Japanese helps, even if you don't get it! (lol) Dunno about going so far as to do it in your sleep, though...

Interesting that pretty much enforces what we have all said that one of the key things to learning a language is exposure no matter how little of it you understand.

EDIT:

Excellent Just noticed the Katzu youtube videos above, that pretty much destroys all these theories some people had that he wasn't as fluent as he said.

Yeah, definitely impressed by Khazu, he's even better than I expected.

Being a few months into AJATT myself, that video truly is inspirational.

Not to seem like a hater, but everyone please remember that he started in 2004. The video he put up came almost 5 years later after he first started studying Japanese.. Think about that. He claimed to be fluent in 1 year and 6 months. However, this proof that we see is at the 5 year mark. What I'm curious about is how his Japanese was like around the 1 year 6 months mark.

mr_hans_moleman Wrote:Not to seem like a hater, but everyone please remember that he started in 2004. The video he put up came almost 5 years later after he first started studying Japanese.. Think about that. He claimed to be fluent in 1 year and 6 months. However, this proof that we see is at the 5 year mark. What I'm curious about is how his Japanese was like around the 1 year 6 months mark.

Very true. For a 5 year learner, it isn't all that impressive either. His speaking ability is above mine, but not that much considering I've been learning it for 2 years. Like my girlfriend (who is fluent) said: His japanese sounds very natural, but he uses pretty simple sentences.

It's impressive, but not enough to warrant the zelous fandom some people are showing (not talking about anyone in particular, especially not from this thread). It shows that he isn't lying though, no matter how long it took, he did eventually learn good Japanese.

I'm glad someone else [hans moleman] said this - I was afraid to. (I fear I'm becoming the resident grouch ).The fellow still isn't "fluent" after 5 years, so hopefully this 18 month stuff can be put to rest and people won't be frustrated by unrealizable expectations.

The amusing thing is...his grammar could use some improvement. [edit: 'amusing' b/c of the recent debate on grammar in another thread] Khatz recommends acting like you're Japanese. But without lines, not all actors can adlib eloquently.[edit: meaning passive input and mastering certain expressions will only take people so far. I'm of the view that learning how to produce is a more important and complex topic than the AJATT method would have us believe.]

Why do I bother to write this? I think it's fantastic that he's motivating people to learn Japanese and recommending resources. At a certain point, I think there's a responsibility to make the learner's best interests the priority. I'm not convinced that his desire to entertain and his investment in his persona don't sometimes get in the way of that. He may be doing a disservice to learners by (for eg): unreasonable expectations, misleading info on the prevalence of polite Japanese, insisting that all classes are bad and advising RTK first (big upfront investment before any accurate sense of what is to come). Some of the questions we get here from folks starting AJATT reinforces my concerns.

On the other hand, I imagine most folks can see it for what it is and just use what they want without taking him too literally. Others will consider paying his $170/hour? consulting fee...

I sincerely don't want to create any argument - just add my 2 cents and quietly leave.

[edits]

Yes I agree, that's what I was getting at in my jokes above about the video. I think just talking about self-study methods on their own merits is good enough. Not really into all the ego stuff.

Thora Wrote:[...] misleading info on the prevalence of polite Japanese [...]

What does he say on that topic? I seemed to have missed that and it's something that interests me.

As for the main thrust of your comments, I don't see it as argumentative. What you say is quite reasonable, and I agree with much of it, both the positive and negative. I think whatever may be said about Khaz, he's provided a massive stimulus to the online Japanese learners' community.

I've been fluent in English for about 15 years. I only use simple grammar when conversing with humans. There are many foreign English speakers with English more eloquent than mine. How are these measurements of his ability/fluency in Japanese?

If we can judge Khatz' accomplishments by what he writes in his blog, I think his acheivements are admirable. As far as I remember, though, he only said that in 18 months he got to the level of Japanese where he could successfuly use japanese in a job interview to get a job in Japan. Impressive, but not proof of fluency in other fields - he's a computer guy who studied his computers using japanese textbooks - so he could probably converse about that quite well, and with good computer skills then landing a job is not so surprising. That's a long haul from what most of us would consider fluent - not to diminish what he did, and certainly his blog and ideas have inspired lots of us here to try new methods, and often successfully at that. Not a shot at the guy, just a dash of realism.

Thora Wrote:misleading info on the prevalence of polite Japanese

I've have not found one source on the prevalence of polite Japanese that this statement doesn't apply to.

Thora Wrote:Others will consider paying his $170/hour? consulting fee...

Yeah, what's with that?

I think it's not altogether unreasonable. Not because it's a reasonable value for most potential purchasers, but because it's a price (so his time isn't free) and it's high (so people won't buy much of it). I'd certainly never pay that, but I might set a fee similar to that if I ended up being in a position similar to him.

On the other hand, though, there's a change that I'm not sure I'd be willing to deal with when all of a sudden you have customers instead of random people asking for advice you can just tell to RTFM.

~J

Thora Wrote:On the other hand, I imagine most folks can see it for what it is and just use what they want without taking him too literally. Others will consider paying his $170/hour? consulting fee...

If the site were to make money, he'd say that he had a method to be fluent in Japanese, give a bunch of testimonials with people saying they could speak Japanese in ten days but no details. You would need to sign up and pay $500 to get the system.

I would say the consulting fee is reasonable. Imagine how many people send him emails requesting advice. He could probably spend all day answering emails if he did it for free. Some foreign language teachers in America charge $100/hr and they just teach from books. They're not going to teach you about language acquisition.

Further, it's an opportunity cost. What could he make if he were freelance programming? With an exchange rate of 88 yen to the dollar, he could get pretty close to that and with freelance he can set his own work time and get blocks of time not one or two hours at a time.

Everything he would tell you anyone is on his site I'm sure. Consulting is just hand-holding for those who need it.

kazelee Wrote:I've been fluent in English for about 15 years. I only use simple grammar when conversing with humans. There are many foreign English speakers with English more eloquent than mine. How are these measurements of his ability/fluency in Japanese?

haha Saving the complex grammar for the aliens, eh? I wasn't suggesting anyone needs to be eloquent (I mean, just look at the wrong words and mismatched verb forms in my post), nor that Khatz isn't. It was only for the actor analogy. I had imagined one classical actor, when forced to ad lib, having the ability to continue producing equally eloquent lines on his feet. Whereas another actor kind of struggles in that new situation. [It was really a comment on the effects of different approaches to producing Japanese]

Or think of 2 students of Japanese. One student has mastered what she needs to know, has an impressive ability to mimic a natural sound with all the little colloquialisms and has the confidence to just get out there and use it. All good stuff. But if you took her to a less casual environment for some serious conversation, she might struggle. The other student hasn't yet developed the natural sound and casual fluency, but has wider reservoir of vocab/expressions and comfort using different levels of politeness. He doesn't sound as cool at the bar, but he can handle himself in the other environment.

I'm not suggesting one is better than the other - eventually they'll probably be at the same level. My point is that it's hard to judge one's proficiency in a language. Different approaches probably yield different results at different times.

I have no idea how Mr Khatz converses at work and it's not really my business. It's just that his impressively natural sound struck me as a bit at odds with the occasionally odd mix of casual/polite and slang/normal (I've only seen/read a couple things). That reminded me of the first type of student/actor (There was also that brief awkward bit in the video on outdated 80's business Japanese.)

If beginners are given the impression that the cool casual stuff is all they really need to know (how 'real people talk'?), I think that's misleading. If they choose to learn only that with full knowledge of its limitations, well that's different. I didn't read the entire AJATT site.

Hope that clarified it Kazelee...but now I'm late for some great jazz. see ya

I agree with Tim about the interview. I bet people just assumed interview=fluent and that took on a life of its own [It turns out he does state on his website that he became fluent in 18 months]

Re $170: Free market - if people want to pay it, then that's what it's worth. I just wonder what it is they think they're buying.

[edits]

Thora Wrote:haha Saving the complex grammar for the aliens, eh?

What's the capital of Nebraska?

Thora Wrote:I wasn't suggesting anyone needs to be eloquent at all. (I mean, just look at the wrong words and mismatched verb forms in my post.) It was only for the actor analogy. I had imagined one classical actor, when forced to ad lib, having the ability to continue producing equally eloquent lines on his feet. Whereas another actor kind of struggles in that situation.

Cool. So, could you please explain in more detail you reasoning for saying he is not fluent. Also, could you give examples of individuals who are fluent as well.

kazelee Wrote:What's the capital of Nebraska?

huh? The "aliens" was in response to your "conversing with 'humans'

Quote:Cool. So, could you please explain in more detail you reasoning for saying he is not fluent.

I thought I did. There's some mixing of polite form and written/spoken style (and some heavy kanji use) in his Japanese. It's on his site. If a reader doesn't assume the writer is Japanese, then he's probably not fluent.

Quote:Also, could you give examples of individuals who are fluent as well.

Japanese people. You want me to name fluent foreigners?? How about this: the ability to function completely and comfortably in Japanese without errors (but not necessarily equal to one's native language ability).

I'm not sure what your aim is. I have no interest in criticizing his Japanese. His Japanese is great and he has the courage to put himself out there. I'm told he's done a lot for the online learning community and I respect that. My concern is that his claim of becoming fluent in 18 months (now his word-of-mouth 'selling point') creates unrealistic expectations for beginners. Maybe he'll qualify it.

Ah, the old "what qualifies as fluent" argument rears it's head. Over the last few months, it seems to me that there's dozens of different opinions on what qualifies as fluent. Heck, my opinion on the matter changes over time.

Guess for me now, it's a matter of: Can I understand conversation or dialogue in any non-specialized area? Can I read lengths of stories in non-specialized areas and understand it? Can I talk about non-specialized areas at a native pace and natives fully understand me using appropriate dialogue to the situation? Can I write about non-specialized areas without tons of typos also using appropriate vocabulary?

Hell, the above will have exceptions, but it seems it will boil down to listening, reading, talking and writing at native pace/level. I'm pretty sure Khatz had the leg up on others in all four areas. His ability is above mine, so I can't judge it. From the looks of it, he's at a level that it takes a native speaker to comment on the ability. That's pretty damn good place to be no matter what. Hell, the main complaint I'm hearing on the other forum from non-native speakers is he uses kanji when it's normally kana.

Anyway, at 18 months, he likely had 1000 hours of active studying, 2000 hours of actively watching Japanese shows, and 8000 hours of listening to Japanese. The gods know how much he actually read during that time. Know what, looking at that, it really doesn't seem so impressive. He's not a natural, he's not smarter, he just put in his time with good material. It was just A LOT of time in a set amount of days (500 days in this case).

Thora Wrote:huh? The "aliens" was in response to your "conversing with 'humans'

Then it seems your wit is out of this world ^_^

Quote:I thought I did. There's some mixing of polite form and written/spoken style (and some heavy kanji use) in his Japanese. It's on his site. If a reader doesn't assume the writer is Japanese, then he's probably not fluent.

You've just restated what you said before, I'm asking for more details.

you Wrote:

me Wrote:Also, could you give examples of individuals who are fluent as well.

Japanese people. You want me to name fluent foreigners??

Uhhhh..... yeah......

Quote:How about this: the ability to function completely and comfortably in Japanese without errors (but not necessarily equal to one's native language ability).

That's a long name...

Quote:I'm not sure what your aim is.

I'm asking you questions, 先輩. It's your 先輩-like duty to answer them, 先輩. It's strange I call you 先輩 because your knowledge exceeds my own, yet I suspect I may be a bit older. Scary thought (-_-).

Quote:I have no interest in criticizing his Japanese.

*takes a look a thora's previous posts*

eh?

*attempts to read through, yes through, the lines instead taking each word as is*

Okay now I see it

*turns head a little to the side like confused puppy*

エット

*realizes the previous action would be less odd were he not a 6'2 male*

Quote:His Japanese is great and he has the courage to put himself out there. I'm told he's done a lot for the online learning community and I respect that. My concern is that his claim of becoming fluent in 18 months (now his word-of-mouth 'selling point') creates unrealistic expectations for beginners. Maybe he'll qualify it.

+

Quote:The fellow still isn't "fluent" after 5 years

=

*turns head to the side like confused puppy*

ナーニー

*realizes the previous action would be less odd were he not a 6'2 male*

楽しかった

On what is fluent:

Serious, though, I ask for examples of fluent people so I can see and hear it, take what I like from it, and discard the rest. You can learn a lot from a native, but you can learn even more from a guy who's learned to be like native.

On Khatzumoto specifically:

If this guy isn't fluent, why even bother posting videos about him? Why even bother posting about him at all? If it's done to celebrate an accomplishment that makes sense, otherwise, you're just being a neener-neener. Lacks eloquence but gets the point across. lol.