I'm confused!

Having just finished Heisig, I'm stuck by where to take my studying now. I've looked around in great detail as to what others have done (RTK2, KanjiTown, AJATT, or whatever else) and am still messing about with a few ideas to see what works...

...but I don't understand AJATT. Well, I do, but I don't understand how you are supposed to initially remember what you put into the SRS. Assuming I found an easy sentence with a compound word in it (図書館, for example) that I didn't know. All I would have to go by would be "map", "write", and "Bldg.". How would I then remember that all three together were read としょかん, and that together this word meant "library"?

I understand that an SRS is supposed to help transfer information into your long-term memory, but if you can barely even get that information into your memory in the first place, I don't see how even attempting to put it into an SRS can help. It seems like we are being told to remember all of this without any sort of method/mnemonic aid, as if we were being told to study Heisig without creating any stories. Which obviously, wouldn't work.

I then emailed Khatzumoto and his response was that you "just sorta do" remember the readings. Perhaps some people do, but I've tried this and I'm not. Any help would be good. Cheers.

Just do it more. And if you find something particularly hard, try to come up with a mnemonic for it (Got lots of experience of that after RTK!).
It's just that when you fail "library" often enough, you finally begin remembering it and then you have something else bugging you. Next you find that generally, say, the character for "sho" in "toshokan" reads most of the time the same way so "sho-dou" (calligraphy) is much easier to learn.
You could try to find lots of sentences with the same characters in different compounds!

The good part is that the easy ones move further and further away in the deck and just the hard ones keep bugging you until they turn to easy ones. It is to build up your passive vocabulary so don't worry about it too much and if you cant read the word in, say, five seconds, read the answer, fail the card, and go to the next one. You'll be able to read it eventually.
The first time, you'll probably doubt if you really did it, so fail it again and let it come around again! Eventually you'll have it!

That's pretty much how you learned your first language in the first place! Just heard the same words over and over again until you was just forced to learn them by heart by the sheer number of repetitions.

(Sorry, no IME on this computer!)

Pete171 Wrote:...but I don't understand AJATT. Well, I do, but I don't understand how you are supposed to initially remember what you put into the SRS. Assuming I found an easy sentence with a compound word in it (図書館, for example) that I didn't know. All I would have to go by would be "map", "write", and "Bldg.". How would I then remember that all three together were read としょかん, and that together this word meant "library"?

It might feel odd in the beginning, but it really isn't hard. As you learn more Japanese, readings just "stick". As you learn on'yomi for kanji, they stick even more. As for meanings, you learn those from the sentence.

If you have a sentence which is 図書館へ行きました and you know it means "I went to the library" and you know what へ and 行きました means, you'll just need to see the sentence to remember what the first word means, it's simply that obvious.

But it's true, I've always felt a bit doubtful about using SRS to learn sentences before you have any grasp of the language (I was personally wellversed in Japanese when I started). I used SRS for Korean for a while and while I certainly learned a lot, I learned very little for the effort I put in. I think it might be a good idea to study the extreme basics first in a more traditional sense. A few chapters of Genki or Minna no Nihongo for example.

I must agree with Tobberoth even though I'm still doing RTK i have added a few sentances to my SRS to try the method out which when ever i see these anywere or when they come up on the review i pretty much instantly recognise what it says even though i hav'nt been actively trying to remember the sentance just seeing it in the SRS when it repeats seems to just make it stick.

I think I'll give it another go, since from what you've all told me, it seems I just need to allow myself more time to see the process work.

As far as sentence mining is concerned, I'm going to try and be particular about the kanji readings/compounds I learn (only for a short while due to an exam I have to take soon). Am I likely to find good sentences just by inputting that one kanji/compound word into http://www.google.jp and clicking on a few of the top links to see the contexts that word comes into?

Also, I'll be using Rikai-chan as a Firefox add-on to help me. Is this a useful/widely respected tool or should I avoid it for any reason?

Oh, and I am correct in thinking I should be reviewing from full kanji to transcriptions to the kanas, aren't I?

Sorry, I don't mean to bug you all. Thanks.

Check this out: http://drmoviemethod.blogspot.com/

You can give mnemonics for the readings. And it works very fine. The nice thing is that you'll soon stop needing as your vocabulary start to become more self contained.

You seem to be very new at Japanese, using sentences from google.jp might be way out of your league. Remember, only input sentences you understand fully into your SRS... simply checking the english meanings of the words with Rikaichan won't even mean you're partially understanding the sentence.

I would recommend mining from easier sources until you're better at Japanese. Textbooks like All About the Particles and stuff like that. There's also guidetojapanese.com which has a lot of pretty simple example sentences, so you can learn grammar as you go.

Pete171 Wrote:I think I'll give it another go, since from what you've all told me, it seems I just need to allow myself more time to see the process work.

As far as sentence mining is concerned, I'm going to try and be particular about the kanji readings/compounds I learn (only for a short while due to an exam I have to take soon). Am I likely to find good sentences just by inputting that one kanji/compound word into http://www.google.jp and clicking on a few of the top links to see the contexts that word comes into?

Also, I'll be using Rikai-chan as a Firefox add-on to help me. Is this a useful/widely respected tool or should I avoid it for any reason?

Oh, and I am correct in thinking I should be reviewing from full kanji to transcriptions to the kanas, aren't I?

Sorry, I don't mean to bug you all. Thanks.

Yeah. It is something that doesn't really show you the results instantly. It is just that reading stuff begins to gradually become less and less hard.
Do it for a couple of months and put a thousand cards to the deck and you'll see if it works or not!

In my cards I have the Japanese sentence in the question, and the readings in kana for the jukugo, that I found hard to read while adding the card, in the answer field along with the definitions for hard words and grammar.
Avoid translating the sentences! You need to understand the sentence as it is without translating it to anything!

Rikai-chan is okay and a pretty helpful tool! Just try not use it where you really don't need it!

mentat_kgs Wrote:Check this out: http://drmoviemethod.blogspot.com/

You can give mnemonics for the readings. And it works very fine. The nice thing is that you'll soon stop needing as your vocabulary start to become more self contained.

Hmm, that's quite interesting. Kinda reminds me of that KanjiTown.

Tobberoth Wrote:You seem to be very new at Japanese, using sentences from google.jp might be way out of your league. Remember, only input sentences you understand fully into your SRS... simply checking the english meanings of the words with Rikaichan won't even mean you're partially understanding the sentence.

I would recommend mining from easier sources until you're better at Japanese. Textbooks like All About the Particles and stuff like that. There's also guidetojapanese.com which has a lot of pretty simple example sentences, so you can learn grammar as you go.

Heh, not that new! Certainly new to this method, though. Been at the language a good 10 months now (which I suppose isn't actually that long at all in the grand scheme of things). My grammar is roughly at JLPT3 level but my ability to read the kanji is still, obviously, dreadful.

I'll stop worrying about the methodology now and am just going to get on with it, hopefully without too many hitches along the way. Thanks for the responses.

Tobberoth Wrote:I would recommend mining from easier sources until you're better at Japanese. Textbooks like All About the Particles and stuff like that. There's also guidetojapanese.com which has a lot of pretty simple example sentences, so you can learn grammar as you go.

I find that iKnow courses have simple, yet pretty good basic sentences!
I started doing their "kanji focus" course when I found the site and am adding the sentences to my deck.

Japanese wikipedia a great source too

I used to be a big fan of AJATT method. I even completed about 3000 sentences before I finally decide I was getting bored with an SRS. I realized that you don't need an SRS. As someone wrote in an article I read, SRS are for prioritization. You put things in the SRS that you want to learn. Naturally, if you read alot(expose yourself to japanese, listening etc.. AJATT method) then you will naturally encounter words over and over again.That's what I do, and I've been learning lots of words this way. It amazes me how I would learn a word, and then end up seeing it in something else I read/watch a few days or a week later. Well I am still a fan of the AJATT, but right now I'm laying low on the SRS usage. So I just read things in Japanese as if I were Japanese. That's most important. If you see a word once, you may not end up seeing it until days later again in some other tv show/book/blog etc... It might even take a couple of weeks to see it again. This is where an SRS becomes useful. It gives you in control of appearance of that word/sentence.

But think about this. If you are only listening/watching/reading Japanese for a few hours a day, you are limiting your exposure to the language. That's where an SRS can be useful too. But if you are like me and have all the time in the world, and can study Japanese all day long then an SRS becomes really boring.

Right now, I like reading forums where people talk about relationships. That in itself is an SRS. I read it everyday, my goal is to read every post in that forum. Imagine, it will take me a couple of months to do it. I'm sure you can also imagine that number of times words are gonna repeat themselves. After all, people tend to say the same things.

My advice:
1. Exposure all the time
2. Read and listen
-ensure that what you hear is what you really hear. listen to songs, and then look up the lyrics. right now I don't watch dramas unless I can find it's script.
So watch the drama then look up the script, listen to a song, then look up the lyrcs, or do it at the same time etc...
3. Finding something in Japanese that you can connect with your experiences

mr_hans_moleman Wrote:I used to be a big fan of AJATT method. I even completed about 3000 sentences before I finally decide I was getting bored with an SRS.

If you stopped SRSing because it bored you, that's still inside the AJATT philosophy. It's not against it, imho.

mr_hans_moleman Wrote:Right now, I like reading forums where people talk about relationships.

Would you mind linking to that forum, please? It might be interesting.

The point is that using an SRS is much faster than simply reading, of course simply reading is more fun. You have to decide what you treasure most, efficiency or fun.

If it bores you, stop using it. If you feel your vocabulary isn't growing fast enough, start using SRS again.

sometimes I try to finish everything in my SRS and sometimes skim a little bit off the top and just do one...sometimes I can't find interesting content or I want to study and I lop off hundreds of unstudied items one my SRS....because it's fun or semi-addictive...I've learned to only "force" for a few seconds...I am sooo glad SRS's are around.

This might be the most shallow reason for using an SRS, but I really like "collecting" things. When I see a word that's awesome, I feel like I need to own it, pet it, give it a name, and dress it in a pink tutu.

I mean, how awesome is the work　ぺしゃんこ？ I wouldn't ever want to forget it.

Yeah, sometimes, when I encounter a new kanji and add it to my SRS, I feel like I've just captured a pokemon. ゲット！

nac_est Wrote:

mr_hans_moleman Wrote:I used to be a big fan of AJATT method. I even completed about 3000 sentences before I finally decide I was getting bored with an SRS.

If you stopped SRSing because it bored you, that's still inside the AJATT philosophy. It's not against it, imho.

mr_hans_moleman Wrote:Right now, I like reading forums where people talk about relationships.

Would you mind linking to that forum, please? It might be interesting.

http://oshiete.goo.ne.jp/

It's a site where people ask questions, and other people answer. The topics are about almost everything

thanks

Little question about the sentences. (I'm new to this)
Sometimes I see a sentence that could mean multiple things, depending on the context. What should I use as translation? The one that makes sense in context, or the most logical one without context?

salvw Wrote:Little question about the sentences. (I'm new to this)
Sometimes I see a sentence that could mean multiple things, depending on the context. What should I use as translation? The one that makes sense in context, or the most logical one without context?

Khatzu says you shouldn't translate. To be sure of what it means, you should put the context of where you got it from on the answer side

I'm having trouble with how long it takes me to use an SRS.

In my reading practice (e.g., manga, web page), I might get several new words each time. Let's say I get 20+ new words a week. To then put them in Khatzumemo...

(1) I need to find sample sentences for them. I'll use my 旺文社和英辞書 first since it's most convenient, but failing that there's the web dictionaries, and if I'm desperate I'll use google. To get a good grip on a word I need at least 2-3 sentences, more if the word has multiple meanings (like とりあえず, いよいよ) and for grammatical constructs.

(2) Then I type in the sentences in a text file to keep for reference (and in case I want to transfer to another SRS one day).

(3) Then I wait until I get an opening in Khatzumemo to type in the sentences. An opening means I've had fewer than 30 sentences to review that day. Then I'll add about 6 sentences. I used to do 50 and 10 respectively, but I've been way too busy, tired and unwell lately.

The problem is that with those stats, I'm probably adding about one or two words a day on average. I've got a huge backlog of words to process, and I don't feel like I'm making much progress. Is my progress reasonable given my situation, or does anyone have any advice on doing better?

salvw Wrote:Sometimes I see a sentence that could mean multiple things, depending on the context. What should I use as translation? The one that makes sense in context, or the most logical one without context?

Thinking about it, the meaning of Japanese sentences is even more dependent on context than in English. If it was me, I would add a note in the question that provides some indication of the context, otherwise you have no idea what the sentence means.

Alternatively, you could try and find a less ambiguous sentence for the same word or construct you're trying to learn.

As for translations, if one is available, I'll include it in the answer, but I won't bother using it unless I had some uncertainty and wanted to double check my understanding. Best not to get used to relying on them. After all, you won't have translations available when you start reading/listening to real life Japanese!

alyks Wrote:

salvw Wrote:Little question about the sentences. (I'm new to this)
Sometimes I see a sentence that could mean multiple things, depending on the context. What should I use as translation? The one that makes sense in context, or the most logical one without context?

Khatzu says you shouldn't translate. To be sure of what it means, you should put the context of where you got it from on the answer side

I always wondered about that. Even on learning audios I've come across they say you shouldn't try to translate the language. What about translating the words individually? Would it no be similar to what is done with keywords in RTK, where, eventually, with enough use, the English slowly falls away?

kazelee Wrote:I always wondered about that. Even on learning audios I've come across they say you shouldn't try to translate the language. What about translating the words individually? Would it no be similar to what is done with keywords in RTK, where, eventually, with enough use, the English slowly falls away?

Yeah, it's exactly the same thing. How many of us didn't learn that aoi means blue? We're still fine at using it in the sense of "green" because the English word "blue" isn't important anymore, it's just what we learned first.

I guess the point is, learning it in a J-J dictionary instead of a J-E dictionary gives you a bit better understanding of the actual meaning AND you can skip the whole "falling away" concept.

The main idea behind not translating sentences is that while you can translate a word (to get a concept) you can't do the same thing for a sentence since a sentence depends on AND defines the meanings of the words contained in it. A translation is always an approximation and if you don't understand the sentence perfectly to begin with, it's an approximation based on approximations (the english words used to describe japanese words) based on an approximation (your idea of how the words are connected).

Safe to say, using translations which weren't meant to teach is a very bad idea.

Raichu,
your method seems a little too complicated. And why do you need to look for example sentences for words you found in context to begin with? Why not add the original sentences? It's easier and it's also better, because you've got the whole manga/article as a context, and it's certainly more difficult to forget.
Also, it is my opinion that it's not necessary to go to the pain of searching for many example sentences for the same word. Just use the one you encountered. Sure, you won't know all the nuances at first, but you'll be sure to know that nuance very well. The next time you'll encounter the same word with another nuance you'll add it.

Finally, I think one should grab sentences from one's reading, not single words. That's the whole concept of the sentence method: the smallest useful parts of a language are sentences, not words. So I'd suggest you take note of entire sentences you don't know, because that way you won't exclude the ones that are all made of words you already know but have a structure/grammar/fixed form that is new to you.

All in all, adding sentences to my SRS takes me an average on 2 minutes each. The steps:
1) copy them directly into the SRS
2) add a definition from a web dictionary ONLY IF it's an incredibly difficult word that I'm certain I will not be able to recall from the context the next time I see it. (that happens for, like, 10% of the words)
3) done, close the SRS and go read some more

The one you like better =D
But if you are not sure about the translation, skip the sentence.