phauna Wrote:Learning vocabulary first and then listening for it is much easier, especially with KO. Learning vocabulary just from listening, especially if you're a beginner is a tough ask, and pretty unnecessary. Cram more vocabulary and your listening will become more useful.

This sums up my opinion perfectly. One CAN learn words from pure input, but it's really hard and not time effective at all. It's better to learn a lot of vocabulary and then listen to Japanese, you will have the building blocks which conversations are built upon. I mean that's how it works in your native language as well, you don't have to hear all that the other person is saying because you can predict from context etc what he said. This is why it's so much easier to hear your native language than other languages, and also why you're so much faster at reading in your own language. You already know the patterns.

I say it's the same with reading: The most effective thing is to always use stuff which is SLIGHTLY above your own level. Easy enough so you understand pretty much all of it, but challenging enough so you have to use your brain and learn new things. The problem is of course to find sources which are perfect for your level.

Tobberoth Wrote:I say it's the same with reading: The most effective thing is to always use stuff which is SLIGHTLY above your own level. Easy enough so you understand pretty much all of it, but challenging enough so you have to use your brain and learn new things. The problem is of course to find sources which are perfect for your level.

I also agree with this. This is also the same theory that Krashen has that AJATT quotes all the time. Also part of the theory is that input that is too difficult can increase your filter to the language which could hamper your progress.

Compare it to your native language: if somebody said some techno-bable with a lot of words you didn't understand you probably wouldn't learn any of them. However, if they just dropped the words in occasionally you would easily pick them up.

Some words are very easy to pick from context. This is particulary true to words like はっきり、やはり, but names and verbs are harder.

Hm, I tend to agree with this guy:

http://blog.feedmejapanese.com/2008/10/2...ty-levels/

Basically saying read based on your interest level not the difficulty level.

mentat_kgs Wrote:Some words are very easy to pick from context. This is particulary true to words like はっきり、やはり, but names and verbs are harder.

I don't agree, IMO it takes extreme amounts of exposure to pick those up. For example, I hear さらに in pretty much all forms of Japanese media I watch, and I was never able to pick up the meaning by context. Often times, it's because the words are a lot more abstract than we think... We see them in one situation a lot and think we understand them, just to have them used in a completely different situation and messing up the understanding we thought we had.

I personally try to never use words like that myself until I have controlled with a J-J dictionary that I have a proper understanding, it's very easy to use them wrong.

Uhm, I picked up さらに so easily. It must vary from person to person.

Doing what you like is obviously motivating, but not always the most efficient route. Krashen says i+1, so I'm going to believe him a little more than Khatz.

I find the guy who writes the Feed me Japanese blog to be a dreamer. He is very enthusiastic and writes about Japanese learning in a way we all wish it worked, but personally I get the impression that he has no idea what he's talking about. It's very positive and interesting, but I don't think his ideas are effective. Saying difficulty is irrelevant makes no sense, it's very very relevant, that's why there are several levels of the JLPT tests: People don't go from beginner to fluent in one go, they have to pass certain levels. This guy is ignoring this fact just because it makes learning Japanese sound more fun.

My personal ideas go hand in hand with my belief that to learn from context, you have to understand the context. You can't take a sentence you don't understand, translate it using very very weak knowledge of the language, then expect to learn from it.

I like his dreaming. It keeps me motivated. But you got your point.
But maybe is not the material that must "evolve". It is the learner.

I know I'm growing troughtout various stages and every few weeks the way I see japanese text and japanese audio is changing. Even if I only listening and reading to "high level" stuff, I could enjoy it in a lower level and this level is raising bit by bit.

Learning from a rich and colorful context it is much more fun and challenging (so even more fun) than learning from boring tasteles material.

I already have some vocabulary base because I took 2 years of university level Japanese. I'm watching Major now (anime) and I can mostly understand what is happening. But most of my understanding is just from context and how the voices are. Not the words themselves. I'll stick with this method as much as I can though. I think just learning straight vocabulary is boring. I watch Major with my kanji study. I'm on frame 461 now! I started about 1.5 weeks ago.

alyks Wrote:Hm, I tend to agree with this guy:

http://blog.feedmejapanese.com/2008/10/2...ty-levels/

Basically saying read based on your interest level not the difficulty level.

Sure interest can be important to keeping up your schedule, but it doesn't really make reading one thing more effective than reading another. If you have two things that you equally enjoy, one being i+1 and the other being far too difficult: Would you learn more from the i+1 material? If you would, the 'difficulty doesn't matter' statement is wrong.

Dies_Irie Wrote:To you guys who use the AJATT method, how long did it take you of listening to Japanese media before you realized that you could actually understand a decent amount of it? 95% of what I get is from context, 4% from English words that are used in Japanese, and 1% from Japanese words I already know.
So, how many hours did it take you to notice that you were learning new words just from watching and listening to Japanese media?
I have felt that I can differentiate the syllables more and listen more clearly, but it's mostly still just nonsense to me.
Thanks.

I don't use AJATT but do study a lot in my own way. My listening is probably one on my stronger points. There is a post about 24/7 Japanese audio that has some audio dramas posted. You can't get anything from context really because there's no video, but I can understand and follow the stories very easily. However I would never recommend this for learning vocabulary. It's completely inefficient unless you remember the context it was used in, which is harder to do than simply learning the word through something like an SRS.

I think too many people are depending on what others do and just following blindly without knowing what is really benefiting them. If you spend 2 hours going through an advanced text or listening to an advanced audio when you can't even understand half the words, then you're wasting your time, imo. Learning is about building on what you know and increasing you're own level gradually. Jumping from low level to advanced isn't going to do you much good when you won't be using advanced language for a long time to come.

cracky Wrote:

alyks Wrote:Hm, I tend to agree with this guy:

http://blog.feedmejapanese.com/2008/10/2...ty-levels/

Basically saying read based on your interest level not the difficulty level.

Sure interest can be important to keeping up your schedule, but it doesn't really make reading one thing more effective than reading another. If you have two things that you equally enjoy, one being i+1 and the other being far too difficult: Would you learn more from the i+1 material? If you would, the 'difficulty doesn't matter' statement is wrong.

Well, uh, how often are you going to find something +1? I certainly couldn't. And I definitely find graded readers to be incredibly boring. Could somebody enlighten me as to where I can find a database of +1 books so I can pick the right book for my level?

Generally, you can find manga of any level as long as you're into manga and know what there is to choose from.

But you know, sticking to what you think your level can be very boring and demotivating. Sure I've looked at extremely basic manga that a beginner can read, and you know what? I didn't want to be reading that. If it's simply something you're reading so you can get to the more difficult books you really want to be reading, then just read the book you want. If you can get more enjoyment out of really simple books, then more power to you.

I mean, I just don't see how it works, I guess. I'm sure we all wish it could work that way where we can just read a perfect progression of +1 books at that perfect level. But like all things in life, there's never going to be a perfect progression that will hold their interest ("just one more page...").

Which is why I say, read what keeps you reading, not what you think you should read. And if they can find books that stay to their difficulty level, then that's awesome. I'm just saying that I couldn't, and I think a lot of people would have trouble with that.

That's why I didn't read i+1. I studied Japanese in a traditional way until I was good enough to understand 80-90% of the novels I wanted to read, before then I simply didn't see the point. I tried to read "Honey and Clover" when I was a beginner at Japanese and had only studied for like 6 months or so (above JLPT3 level but not by much) and there was no point. I didn't understand anything (Honey and Clover is aimed for college girls mainly). I understood maybe 50% of the words (if I looked up the kanji) but that didn't help when I didn't get the meaning of the sentence at all. I could have brought out tons of dictionaries and grammar notebooks etc, but why? It wouldn't teach me much Japanese and it wasn't fun, because it isn't fun to read or watch things you don't understand, the entertainment is in the content you're not understanding. Personally I found it a lot more fun to read very simple books since I actually understood what was going on there, but like I said, it can be hard to find such simple books which aren't extremely boring. My main recommendation would be crayon shinchan, it's faily simple sentences, brings tons of new vocabulary into the mix AND is hilarious.

Ah, see, I recommend something you've read already in English to start of off. Manga you've read translated into English or something you've read in English that's been translated to Japanese.

I believe you don't need to understand everything to enjoy something. Which is what AJATT is about. Get addicted to a series or book in Japanese that you love reading even if you can't understand it all. When you read/watch something that's interesting and you enjoy, you'll automatically want to understand more. In the process of reading/watching more and more to feed your desire for understanding, you will undoubtedly increase your ability to understand the language. It becomes a loop where the more you read, the more you understand, the more you enjoy, the more you read. Eventually you'll understand more than you don't.

And this isn't just "Oh the world should be this way". It's something I do everyday. I look forward to reading the two books I'm into right now (Death Note and Harry Potter), I really like watching Noir, Dragon Zakura, Seigi No Mikata. Sure I don't understand them all, in fact I understand very little, but that doesn't mean it's not enjoyable.

Now, if you'll excuse me, Death Note is called my name...

I said this before somewhere, but I think it is worth restating. If you enjoy something, then it is at the l+1 level. It seems circular, but think of it this way:

- If you don't enjoy it because it is too hard, then it is higher than l+1
- If you enjoy it, there must be parts you understand, unless you are just fooling yourself into thinking you enjoy it. If there are parts you understand, then you have the capability and the motivation to use those parts to learn the rest of the parts.

The +1 in the "l+1" is really what is different for different sources. Measuring your "level" must take into account your ability, your knowledge of the subject matter, and your interest (interest because you will generally think about and know more about the things that interest you). I haven't fully fleshed out my thoughts on this, but I seriously think the "find what interests you" philosophy will lead you to "l+1" material. Just be sure that it actually interests you.

My 10 minutes are up.

Well that's fine, if you enjoy it. I really wish I enjoyed series where I understood about 50% because that is much easier to find. Unfortunately, I don't (But I do know people, like you, who are fine with it and can simply ignore what they don't understand and enjoy it anyway, while of course admitting that the are missing out a little bit).

And I would like to say that I think it's fine to read books where you only understand 20% as well, if you feel like it. It won't be detrimental to your learning (unless you try to translate it using J-E and stuff like that because you're knowledge simply isn't enough to translate into something good) but at the same time, i don't think it's effective towards learning either. So I'm like, do it if you like it, but don't COUNT on it to be effective studies, if you get what I mean by that. Do it for fun, not for studies.

I don't understand more than 20% of a typical shonen manga but it's really beneficial to read them even if I don't understand. Some words just get stuck in my head and then later I recognize them and they are instantly learned. That happened to me no later than today. Yesterday I noticed the word 一体 in One Piece, today I was listening to japanesepod101 in the bus and they explained that word. When such connections are made, it really reinforces what is learned.

Tobberoth Wrote:

mentat_kgs Wrote:Some words are very easy to pick from context. This is particulary true to words like はっきり、やはり, but names and verbs are harder.

I don't agree, IMO it takes extreme amounts of exposure to pick those up. For example, I hear さらに in pretty much all forms of Japanese media I watch, and I was never able to pick up the meaning by context. Often times, it's because the words are a lot more abstract than we think... We see them in one situation a lot and think we understand them, just to have them used in a completely different situation and messing up the understanding we thought we had.

I personally try to never use words like that myself until I have controlled with a J-J dictionary that I have a proper understanding, it's very easy to use them wrong.

Depends on the person, the word, and the material. For example, the first time I heard 動く was while watching bleach. Character was down and couldn't move and shouting it. It was obvious. I've heard the word やろう several times. It didn't really stick out until I was watching Zettai Kareshi. One character was being a real dick, and another rolled up his sleeves saying このよろおおおう. Then there is うっそ. I've heard this said so many time yet still have no idea what it means. Could mean no way. Could mean really. Could mean get it away. Could mean crap. Maybe I should look this one up, eh?

うそ just means lie as in うそをつく. It's mostly used when something unbelievable happens, it's hard to translate because just saying "lie!" or "that's a lie!" usually doesn't fit well.

kazelee Wrote:Then there is うっそ. I've heard this said so many time yet still have no idea what it means. Could mean no way. Could mean really. Could mean get it away. Could mean crap. Maybe I should look this one up, eh?

If you're going to look it up, look for 嘘 (うそ).

Tobberoth Wrote:Often times, it's because the words are a lot more abstract than we think... We see them in one situation a lot and think we understand them, just to have them used in a completely different situation and messing up the understanding we thought we had.

I agree. I thought I knew what "ちがう" meant until I came across "今日はちょっと違う".

Codexus Wrote:I don't understand more than 20% of a typical shonen manga but it's really beneficial to read them even if I don't understand. Some words just get stuck in my head and then later I recognize them and they are instantly learned. That happened to me no later than today. Yesterday I noticed the word 一体 in One Piece, today I was listening to japanesepod101 in the bus and they explained that word. When such connections are made, it really reinforces what is learned.

I agree with this approach. I don't understand everything in every manga I read either, but I enjoy the stories. There are basically three kinds of sentences: Sentences I completely understand. Hurrah! Sentences I can't understand at all: Skip them. Then the best: Those I ALMOST understand. If I look up the one word I don't know - bingo!, I've learned new vocab and I'm on my way again. Or maybe I know all the words in a sentence and still don't understand it. Fine, there's probably a piece of slang or grammatical structure I don't know. I look it up or ask someone. Bang, another one down. Each time I'm finding sentences that teach me bit by bit, one word at a time. Then when I move onto the next manga, I'm starting from a bigger and stronger base.

timcampbell Wrote:I agree with this approach. I don't understand everything in every manga I read either, but I enjoy the stories. There are basically three kinds of sentences: Sentences I completely understand. Hurrah! Sentences I can't understand at all: Skip them. Then the best: Those I ALMOST understand. If I look up the one word I don't know - bingo!, I've learned new vocab and I'm on my way again. Or maybe I know all the words in a sentence and still don't understand it. Fine, there's probably a piece of slang or grammatical structure I don't know. I look it up or ask someone. Bang, another one down. Each time I'm finding sentences that teach me bit by bit, one word at a time. Then when I move onto the next manga, I'm starting from a bigger and stronger base.

This is the danger I'm talking about. You didn't understand the sentence, looked up a word and think you understood it. Wrong. You got a better understanding, but looking up a word won't let you understand a sentence unless you understand it almost 100% without that word (and if you understood everything but the word, it obviously was i+1, so you know more than you admit if that's the case). You got a passing understanding, and that's great, but it isn't enough to consider a word learned. You just learned that the word means "something like this" and that it can be used in a situation similar to what you read. It's learning, I certainly won't deny that. I'm just saying that it's dangerous to rely on such "half-understandings".