My brother took 1 year of Japanese in college but because of time conflicts with his major classes he wasn't able to take any more, but I think he wants to study more on his own. It's been some years since he took the class and he no longer has the book (I think it was Yokoso), but he does have an iPad and things like that that would be helpful.

I'm going to get him some books for Christmas and I wanted to hear some recommendations -- I'm going to hit up the half-price books to see if there's any good stuff there, but I also want to get him a new book or two also. I was thinking RTK (gasp!) and Genki 1.

One problem is that I can't really find any place or thread on this site that clearly explains the whole theory behind SRS and such. Nukemarine's guide seems good for people who already are familiar with the jargon and have read some posts here, but is there anything a little more introductory than that? He's in grad school so he's not going to be doing AJATT or anything like that. (I haven't really spent much time reading the beginner-oriented resource threads).

yudantaiteki Wrote:I was thinking RTK (gasp!) and Genki 1

I think a self-learner would find Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar a lot more useful than Genki; but maybe it's just me.

Quote:One problem is that I can't really find any place or thread on this site that clearly explains the whole theory behind SRS and such.

The Supermemo website, maybe?

Out of Japanese for Busy People, Genki and Youkoso I liked the latter the best. Minna no nihongo is written entirely in Japanese so you will need the translation guide as well. I thought Japanese for Busy People to be rather poor. I used the Genki series as a high school student and in retrospect I wish I would have used Minna no nihongo. Genki uses way too much English and relies on math-like formulas. Also the vocabulary didn't help me as they are designed a for Uni students which may come as a plus for your brother.

Actually I have a practically unused level 3 (中級1).

Genki 1 is pretty decent. I don't know about other textbooks since I've only used that one and Youkoso and they're organized the same way pretty much.

I wouldn't get DBJG yet. DBJG is valuable if you decide to go with native material or used in conjunction with another text. Plowing through it is very tiresome and dry. To me, it's like handing someone an English dictionary if they wanted to increase their vocabulary.

Do people have to understand SRS theory to use it properly? I just thought of it as optimized flashcards and went from there, with importance on using it regularly and as often as possible.

With that said, I'd go through Genki 1 first, then RTK.

yudantaiteki Wrote:I'm going to get him some books for Christmas and I wanted to hear some recommendations -- I'm going to hit up the half-price books to see if there's any good stuff there, but I also want to get him a new book or two also. I was thinking RTK (gasp!) and Genki 1.

One problem is that I can't really find any place or thread on this site that clearly explains the whole theory behind SRS and such. Nukemarine's guide seems good for people who already are familiar with the jargon and have read some posts here, but is there anything a little more introductory than that? He's in grad school so he's not going to be doing AJATT or anything like that. (I haven't really spent much time reading the beginner-oriented resource threads).

What is it about the theory behind SRS that you don't know about?

As far as I've read thus far, SRS is originally based on learning something, and then transferring the knowledge from short term memory to long term memory. The better you know something, the longer you can go without seeing it. A good SRS will time your cards based on your history so that you review it JUST before you'd otherwise forget it. Forcing yourself to remember the facts at this time will help with the longterm memory.

I actually remember when I was in grade 1 used a manual leitner system for flashcards to learn to read english words. We moved the cards up a box every time we got a fact correct. It worked quite well, and I am glad to see a computerized version that times individual cards rather than whole boxes.

If you're looking for more of the science behind it, I can't help much more than this, butit gets the idea across

[ファブリス]

Wikipedia's article on spaced repetition is probably all you need.

Don't confuse James Heisig's method (RTK), which is his "character breakdown by components meets mnemonics" approach, with spaced repetition.

The explanation of SRS is not for me, but for my brother. I guess I didn't express myself well above, I didn't really mean "theory", but rather how a beginner would go about using it -- i.e. what to put in there.

The main problem I have with Yokoso is that it's much more expensive than Genki.

Yudan you mean awesome Japanese skills doesn't instantly make you rich?!? Oh no! You've broken the illusion for us all!

I used Genki 1&2... I don't know how I feel about them- I didn't think they were amazing or anything but they have some good exercises. I feel like it's a better book if you're in a class or can study in a group. I think the "Yellow Bible" (ie DBJG) is a must have and it's much cheaper to buy in Japan than abroad.

”The main problem I have with Yokoso is that it's much more expensive than Genki.”

Yeah, and even Genki is a bit expensive. But it's just my two cents.

Go to anki.ichi2.net and download Anki for free. Watch the tutorial videos if you're really having trouble.

Learn how to download a shared plugin.

Download the Japanese Support plugin. That's the most useful one. Ignore the useful plugins thread on this forum until later.

Learn how to download a shared deck. Pick one you like (depends on what you'd like to study). Alternatively make your own deck out of material you're studying.

Learn how to setup syncing. For this, there is a tutorial video you can watch on the Anki website. See the videos link above.

Learn how the "Study Options Dialog" works. This is one of the easiest dialogues to use and can really help your studying.

For explaining SRS theory, see Fabrice's linked article.

I love Japanese for Everyone, and it's competetively priced.
I also Have the DOBJG ( as well as the 2 that it pairs with )

As far as SRSing goes, I like to add vocabulary that I come across with new grammar points I have learnt, starting from basic sentences to provide context and reinforce basic grammar patterns.

The general rule of thumb is i+1 make sure there is only one new piece of information per card, but I don't have a problem putting a new piece of vocab with a new piece of grammar.

My favourite cards are sentence ( with kanji ) to full furigana and meaning if needed.

Dustin_Calgary Wrote:I love Japanese for Everyone, and it's competetively priced.
I also Have the DOBJG ( as well as the 2 that it pairs with )

As far as SRSing goes, I like to add vocabulary that I come across with new grammar points I have learnt, starting from basic sentences to provide context and reinforce basic grammar patterns.

The general rule of thumb is i+1 make sure there is only one new piece of information per card, but I don't have a problem putting a new piece of vocab with a new piece of grammar.

My favourite cards are sentence ( with kanji ) to full furigana and meaning if needed.

JFE + DOBJG = best combination possible, I reckon JFE's grammar explanations aren't that great (for me at least), but its dialogues and the amount of vocab it introduces more than make up for that. And for the grammar, nothing comes close to DOBJG. Sometimes I am actually shocked by just how good it is - how can one book be that damn good? Wish I could buy a drink for the two authors or something :p

I think a nice and pseudo quick project would be putting the entries of DOBJG into a more intuitive order ie JFE or Tae Kim. Like others say, DOBJG is a great resource but it is in "dictionary" order. Going A to Z is more off putting than say looking at "da" and "desu" first.

To the original question, JFE combined with DOBJG is probably a good combo as both are available in spreadsheet format in various places on the web. There's some benefit to entering all that info yourself, but that benefit wears thin rather quickly so it's good to have a spreadsheet to fall back on.

If you get him RTK, considering using it with some method of reducing the 2000 characters to a smaller set. The RTK Lite or the 2k1KO Book 1 Ultralite may be good candidates. Info and links for that should be in the "Teaching Kana and RTK in Yokosuka" thread.

Nukemarine Wrote:I think a nice and pseudo quick project would be putting the entries of DOBJG into a more intuitive order ie JFE or Tae Kim. Like others say, DOBJG is a great resource but it is in "dictionary" order. Going A to Z is more off putting than say looking at "da" and "desu" first.

But the problem is, "da" and "desu"-type entries are among the most complex, simply because they are so foundational. I think it's good to get a bit of basic stuff under your belt before you look at the DOBJG, just so you don't get overwhelmed.

Vinniram, I gotta disagree there. The "wa...da" entry is a straight forward entry. It just happens to fall on page 521 so is a late entry for those using the book's sentences A to Z.

Besides, the benefit of a reorganized Table of Contents as it were is not to remove the need for a JFE or Tae Kim type grammar resource. My original idea was take the spreadsheet of Tae Kim and add a column that lists what book/page of the DOBJG you can find further explanation on the entry. With that, a student could more easily add additional sentences while on that section that relate to that section. Much, much better than just doing an Anki search for the same grammar term which brings up any sentence that happens to use it.

gyuujuice Wrote:Out of Japanese for Busy People, Genki and Youkoso I liked the latter the best. Youkoso is written entirely in Japanese so you will need the translation guide as well. I thought Japanese for Busy People to be rather poor. I used the Genki series as a high school student and in retrospect I wish I would have used Youkoso. Genki uses way too much English and relies on math-like formulas. Also the vocabulary didn't help me as they are designed a for Uni students which may come as a plus for your brother.

I must be missing something, because I don't remember my Yookoso book being entirely in Japanese.

I personally find Yookoso to not be as bad as most people claim it to be. I only used it for later college Japanese classes, but it seemed fine to me. A bit outdated, but that was all I noticed. I had trouble with Genki in the beginning as I found its explanation of particles very difficult to understand, however, it got better as time went on. Genki II is also good. The only downside is the vocabulary for the Genki books, which like gyuujuice said, is geared toward university student -- and not only that, but much of it is just plain unnecessary to learn for a beginner. Yookoso has more useful vocabulary. Oh and another problem I found with Genki was its limited examples. I just did not feel like there was enough for me to grasp certain concepts. If you do get Genki for him, I strongly recommend the Answer Booklet. It's indispensable.

"I must be missing something, because I don't remember my Yookoso book being entirely in Japanese. "

*SLAPS FACE* Ugh -- I totally meant みんなの日本語!!!
*edits*

Actually JFE is even cheaper and people seem to be recommending it so I may go with that instead. I also found Japanese in Mangaland at half-price books which seems kind of fun.

I think Xamuel's explanation of Spaced Repetition is one of the best.
http://www.xamuel.com/spaced-repetition-systems/

It was the one that convinced me it was the way to go.

Yeah like I said, I didn't explain myself well -- I didn't really mean the theory.

Basically my issue is this -- I still have a lot of concerns about RTK and I would not be comfortable just giving it to someone without any direction or additional information beyond what's in the book. The only reason I'm considering it is that this board is the only place I've seen on the Internet that really gives a path from start to "finish" and a clear study plan, and has people here who have actually used it with some degree of success. It seems like RTK is an essential part of that plan for a lot of people. But I'm having a hard time finding places where someone who is totally unfamiliar with RTK and this forum can get some direction on how to start without having to comb through every thread.

In other words, if I gave my brother RTK, JFE, and Japanese in Mangaland, where could I link him to in order to show him how to get started?

I guess another related question is whether people have managed to do something like the usual "sentence method" espoused here *without* RTK.

I don't think it's easy to just "jump" into sentences. Maybe he could feel more comfortable after the beginning stages. Language study is both a personal and a social experience. He has to decide eventually how he wants to learn -- not you. Though you do have a lot of influence.

yudantaiteki Wrote:I guess another related question is whether people have managed to do something like the usual "sentence method" espoused here *without* RTK.

I have! That's what I'm doing, anyways. I'm going through Kore along with mining All About Particles (which I extremely recommend) and Japanese the Manga Way. I actually would love to go through RTK, but I have less than a month until what I want to use it for gets here and finals, etc, would take too much time to power through it. So I'm focusing on grammar and using context to look things up.

(I'm waiting for Pokemon, basically).

So it is possible - it's just a little harder.

Note: I have a lot of background in the language, though - I've been studying on and off for years (mostly off lately), so I was already familiar with hiragana/katakana and most of the basic stuff grammar-wise on Tae Kim's page.

yudantaiteki Wrote:Basically my issue is this -- I still have a lot of concerns about RTK and I would not be comfortable just giving it to someone without any direction or additional information beyond what's in the book. The only reason I'm considering it is that this board is the only place I've seen on the Internet that really gives a path from start to "finish" and a clear study plan, and has people here who have actually used it with some degree of success. It seems like RTK is an essential part of that plan for a lot of people. But I'm having a hard time finding places where someone who is totally unfamiliar with RTK and this forum can get some direction on how to start without having to comb through every thread.

When I took a class last year, I remember people telling me how they'd remember kanji. "Oh yeah, there's a squiggly line here and then a plus sign here..."

I don't know how you could function like that.

So many people are intimidated it because they don't realize that it's just a sum of different parts. That's what RTK prepares you for, it teaches you the parts so that you can look at a kanji and understand how it's composed.

I differ from AJATT's opinion in that it should go after an overview of the language, not the first thing you learn. Learning how to compose 偽 will not be particularly helpful or stick in your memory well if you can't even write and understand "My name is kainzero. Nice to meet you." If you don't learn when you're supposed to use kanji or kana... why learn kanji composition?

Quote:In other words, if I gave my brother RTK, JFE, and Japanese in Mangaland, where could I link him to in order to show him how to get started?

I think everyone has a different plan, depending on time and motivation. My plan looks something like this:
Community college Japanese 1 (Half of Genki 1) > RTK > Community college Japanese 2 (The other half of Genki 1) > KO2001 + Kanzen Master 2kyu + DBJG/DIJG/DAJG

Native material and Lang-8 is sprinkled here and there and ramps up as my skill level increases.

Since I don't know JFE or Japanese in Mangaland, I'm not sure how they play off each other... but it's best to focus on one at a time. RTK is a supplement so it's okay to throw it in while mainly reviewing something else.

kainzero Wrote:When I took a class last year, I remember people telling me how they'd remember kanji. "Oh yeah, there's a squiggly line here and then a plus sign here..."

I don't know how you could function like that.

I learned kanji without RTK and I know many people who did as well. My question wasn't whether RTK was necessary to learn kanji (I know it's not), but whether it was necessary to follow the basic plan that tends to be favored on this forum.

yudantaiteki Wrote:

kainzero Wrote:When I took a class last year, I remember people telling me how they'd remember kanji. "Oh yeah, there's a squiggly line here and then a plus sign here..."

I don't know how you could function like that.

I learned kanji without RTK and I know many people who did as well. My question wasn't whether RTK was necessary to learn kanji (I know it's not), but whether it was necessary to follow the basic plan that tends to be favored on this forum.

Generally speaking I don't think I could see myself doing the sentence method without knowing the kanji in the sentence. Even if I used kana, it seems to helf defeat the purpose of most of my recognition cards. I like to have Kanji sentneces that I will then read off properly ( or attempt to ) and generally speaking if I can do that I'll have the meaning of the sentence in my memory too.

If I am going kana to meaning, it's tougher with some sentences due to lack of context around the sentence, then you're going directly from kana to meaning and overall getting less out of the experience.

However, if he can use the sentence in a structured manner, using sentences from the textbooks, and entering the sentence structures as you come across them along with the kanji along the way, I feel it can be just as beneficial for retaining the information learnt through a textbook.

I prefer RTK since it allows me to dive into kanji deep sentences faster and avoid some of the pitfalls of having to go kana heavy in my decks, and get more natural feeling material exposure.


So at the end of the day RTK makes my sentence method easier, more comfortable, and I can learn new words faster since I have the exposure to many kanji, it's by no means NECESSARY to be able to do the sentence method, but it would help.