Or to put it in another way, what happens in your mind's eye when you recall a kanji you learned through RTK? To me, different things can happen:

1) Sometimes the keyword just makes the entire kanji pop into my mind;

2) Some other kanji I recall through its elements, piece by piece, and they pop one by one composing the image in my mind;

3) Kanji I struggle to remember require me to recall the story, and through the story, I assemble the pieces together.

What puzzles me is that I am not sure whether it is a good thing that most of the kanji I remember visually without resorting to the stories - should I always stick to the stories?

I just got to frame 500 and continue doing the same routine, learn some kanji on RTK, train writing them in paper or Kanji LS Touch, then run my session on anki. I am just afraid that most of the kanji I recall without the stories, and maybe this will get impossible to sustain to the end of the book.

aureo Wrote:What puzzles me is that I am not sure whether it is a good thing that most of the kanji I remember visually without resorting to the stories - should I always stick to the stories?

I remember most of the kanji I learned before starting RtK (about 100 of them) like that, plus a few other kanji that I have seen and reviewed so frequently they just got stuck in my visual memory. I think that this is not a problem, since your goal is to memorise the kanji, not the stories. However, being able to break those kanji into primitives and having the stories at least written down somewhere may be quite helpful in later stages, when you will need to come up with stories for more complex characters and subtle distinctions will be crucial.

I only encounter kanji I learned in RTK in words/sentences, because I switched to only doing kanji in context once I completed RTK. So usually I simultaneously recognize the kanji, the reading, and the meaning, and to varying degrees depending on what I'm fuzzy on, I bootstrap the kanji/reading/meaning into memory with the other elements I'm less fuzzy on. Keyword and story and conscious decomposition of the character into radicals and/or strokes are generally the last things I do, and only when I really want to use those hooks to aid/augment recall/memorization, in context. Or something like that.

I think focusing on radicals/primitives helps as a cue/trigger for stories. And if you're fuzzy on stories, then the keywords are useful. The keyword is just a bridge between the stories and kanji, and on those semantic hooks, the stories are really just a framework for the primitives/spatial placement. So once you know a kanji well it kind of works backwards I think? I feel hesitant writing this, my mind is unclear due to sugar buzz.

I've just started learning with the book 5 days ago (I'm at 70 Kanji and haven't done any today yet), and for me I have the story and the word on the front of my SRS cards. I look at the word and try to figure out the Kanji myself without reading the story (often, by remembering the story). Some Kanji I assemble with the stories, some I just remember.

I don't want to get too dependent on the stories basically (So I don't end up confusing words like "early" and "Morning"), but it's really incredible how much they help in remembering what the kanji look like. For me, they are a bridge. Use them to learn the Kanji, but once you are secure try to do it without the story.

Like you, I memorised some of the kanji without stories; just by repetition I could recall the elements. However, those were the kanji that gave me the most trouble; whenever I'd have a break from studying, I'd forget them, and I could never consistantly go kanji > keyword.

Now after 4 months off study, the ones with good stories instantly come back, while the kanji with weak stories I'm having to study all over again. Basically a little effort now in making a good story is totally worth it in the long run.

My experience was pretty similar for the beginning of the book, with being able to recall many of the kanji without the stories. I think for me it was a combination of not having so many keywords yet, the kanji themselves being simpler/having less primitive elements, and my habit of writing each one 5-6 times when I first learned it. Since you say you train writing them that could be a part of why it’s easier for you to recall them without the stories. In my case I now remember most new ones (I’m at around 1800 now) based on their primitive elements/stories. Sometimes I come across words in review where I’m like “huh? That’s one of my keywords?” where in the beginning there weren’t as many and RTK was still new and exciting so the keywords stuck in my brain as special. I have a feeling I am getting off track here. A lot of my older cards I still remember in the “popping into my brain” sort of way. I don’t feel like I will forget them, they feel like they are pretty stuck in my mind. I think you will find as you go further along that the stories become more helpful, but if you go all the way through and still mostly recall them in the instant way I don’t see it as a problem as long as you don’t start forgetting mass amounts of them. Like other people have said, the stories were always meant to fall away anyways. I hope I was fairly coherent…it’s about 4 am here and I’m not all here mentally.

I'd suggest making stories stronger and more visual. By this I mean you can research a few memory tactics to help with your imaginative memory, but as you go through the book, Heisig will explain the different phases.

After you pass 1100 or so Kanji, he explains that your imaginative memory will give you the best recall. The only problem is, that a lot of people rush certain Kanji and can't remember it later on. I would say, take a few minutes and really get the images... even smells if you can think them up for specific Kanji. Then when you review (Anki, or here) it will be very strong and much harder to forget...

I like using characters that create an IMMEDIATE recall and then make the story as interesting as possible. Say for "rake"... I modified a story here for a Gladiator with a RAKE in his hand, to Russel Crowe, the ultimate Gladiator, with a rake in his hand. Then when I make my little stories, I really get into the imagery, especially if the Kanji is quite obscure.

So for Ax, I used Arnold Schwarznegger as Conan holding his AXE to create a series of very powerful recall stories. This is how you save yourself grief in the long run I feel. No matter what, there are Kanji you WILL forget, but make the roots a little deeper and stronger, and you'll get pretty rapid and accurate recall for many Kanji.

cheers

Quote:What puzzles me is that I am not sure whether it is a good thing that most of the kanji I remember visually without resorting to the stories - should I always stick to the stories?

I think the idea behind the stories was to use them in order to remember them visually, but not necessarily to always remember the actual story, no? IMO whatever 'memory tools' work to help you remember, use them and sooner or later theoretically they all should become automated when your brain no longer requires you to be conscience of the training wheels, so to speak.

For myself, I find my brain using all the methods you listed, including:
1. Emotions - Some I remember by feeling a certain emotion that I have connected to the keyword. This emotion(s) is either an emotion the story made me feel or - in cases where I thought the story was terribly weak/made no sense/awkward/too outdated/completely stupid- the emotion of my reaction to the story that I read. In both cases, I would have to work hard to recall the story, but it isn't necessary because the emotion is powerful enough to have me recall the kanji with no effort.
2. Complicated -- > easy - Rather than remembering the pieces, in some cases, a keyword reminds me of a keyword for a more complicated kanji that happens to hold some of the simpler ones and the primitives. My brain seems to have a better grasp at remembering the simple ones when framed with others than on its own.
3. Audio - Some keywords have an audio cue, which means that unfortunately, I find myself 'acting out' the story audibly, or making a sound that would have existed in the story - so it is a good thing I'm not in public when reviewing!
4. Smell - some stories brought memories of certain smells which have now replaced the story itself, so when I see the keyword, I remember the smell and the kanji that goes with it.

3. and 4. are really just an extension of me visualizing the story. 1. in the first case, too, but the second case, more so of a lack of an attempt to visualize it in the first place. Kind of reverse psychology on myself.