Hi All,

I don't know if you've come across this in your grammar books of choice, but some grammar points are listed with a few variations.

Do you know what the "vibe" is for grammar points that have optional "として" or "して"? In KM2Kyuu grammar points 129, 130 and 131 have these listed:
１２９：～はともかく（として） (regardless of ~)
１３０：～をきっかけに（して）/～をきっかけとして (through~; by~ (chance encounter))
１３１：～を契機に（して）/～をけいきとして(since~; (since a thing happened a big change has occurred)

There's a combination of optional and not optional inclusion of としてor して in the above and I'm not really sure how to think of them... Probably something obvious, but a clarification would be nice!

Thanks!

k.

I don't know what KM2Kyuu is like. But it seems they're simply saying they're pretty much the same thing. So, for example, the author means that it doesn't matter if you use をきっかけに, をきっかけにして or をきっかけとして but you can't drop して when you use the と version, i.e., you can't say をきっかけと without changing its grammatical function or meaning.

Of course, no two distinct phrases can have the exact same meaning in a strict sense, so there are always slight differences between alternatives. And very careful native speakers might use different forms to convey different nuances. But I'm pretty sure if you ask a random Japanese guy on the street what the actual differences are, he'd say, "Same difference." The difference in meaning between the Japanese phrases and their translations is way larger than the difference between the alternatives anyway.

Thanks for the feedback. I generally take the approach you suggested, but sometimes the alternate formations involve the inclusion of a　も or an optional は, or keep things in verb stem form -- each of those having general meanings: contrast-ness or "even though"-ness for も, highlighting or emphasizing with は, or written formality with verb stems (I'm not 100% sure about those either, hence my putting in as "general vibe"). Hence my question curiosity about these optional additions...

k

Well, I don't quite follow your explanation of the general vibe も and は are supposed to have...

In any case, the difference between にして, として, and に used in those examples isn't that simple. For example, you'll often come across expressions like "これをきっかけにまた" while "これをきっかけとしてまた" would be much rarer. You can explain why by using grammar jargon and complicated rules. But it would require deep knowledge in Japanese grammar and linguistics and only result in an explanation waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond what you'd call a general vibe. I doubt Japanese textbooks for learners explain this.

If you analyze the optional parts in detail, technically they're combinations of words (e.g., にして is a combination of particles に and て with the continuative form of する thrown in. Or more precisely, に is 格助詞 (a kind of particle) and て is 接続助詞 (another kind of particle)). And, in theory, you can deduce their meanings from grammar and see how those alternatives end up having pretty much the same meaning. But if you can understand such explanations, you're already better at Japanese than your average educated native speaker.

From your posts, I'm guessing your textbook doesn't always differentiate this kind of same difference option and a kind of option that makes a more important and obvious difference. But I can assure you that at least the ones you asked don't change anything important.

Thanks for the attention magamo! The kanzen master books don't have much as far as discussion of grammar points go. They have the one-sentence description and then 2 or 5 example sentences. The rest is left to deduction and trends... I am not trying to pass the test only, I would sincerely like to better my understanding of these grammar points and the language overall -- if you have any favorite grammar references I'd be happy to hear your suggestions.

k.

I don't read through many textbooks or grammar references for learners. So I think my opinion is heavily biased. But it seems "Japanese: The Spoken Language" is one of the more serious (or less dumbed down) textbooks written for learners. "A Dictionary of Basic/Intermediate/Advanced Grammar" is also a great series where you can find a solid and detailed explanation for each grammar point. I remember yudantaiteki recommended the former. I've heard many good things about the grammar dictionary series from many advanced learners (such as pm215 in this forum).

If you're looking for something more basic, probably any popular book would do as long as you find it helpful. At the beginning level, whether a book is easy for you to understand depends on how well it fools you rather than how well it explains confusing points.

If you want more advanced stuff than them, I think it'd be better to look for grammar books written in Japanese because beyond good textbooks is where translation fails. Also, you might want to focus more on word usage, collocation, and nuance than on universally applicable grammar rules.

Meikyo is a very good J-J dictionary with plenty of information on nuance and word usage. Jarvic7 also recommended it. The thing is that it doesn't cover as many words as other popular J-J dictionaries. Also, it's for native speakers so it's a sub-optimal option at best, though I've never seen a better dictionary for that purpose.

現代日本語文法概説 is a comprehensive grammar reference with the most detailed explanations available for free. While this is written for learners and Japanese teachers, it's not too much of a stretch to say that this online book is overkill even for native speakers.

Unfortunately, I've yet to see a good material filling the gap between popular textbooks/dictionaries of grammar and the really advanced materials.