http://www.yearlyglot.com/2010/11/dont-use-flashcards/
http://www.yearlyglot.com/2010/11/flashc...after-all/

I agree. I've been using Anki for a few months and I must say flashcards don't work too well for me for anything but kanji and cramming for tests. Of course, using monolingual dictionaries or just "doing stuff in the language" obviously requires some knowledge of the language already, so I prefer to use parallel text books such as Assimil to reach that intermediate level.

I don't think they're detrimental though (since the words I've learned by direct English translations have received more fleshed out meanings through exposure), but they are a pain and not really necessary. If I want to learn huge sets of words rapidly, I use wordlists.

And while I'm dignifying language bloggers' pulpits rather than ignoring them as fellow forum users that are posting on entire sites rather than here, hehe: http://www.spanish-only.com/2010/11/flashcards-bad/

I kinda agree with him, it is more useful/fun to just focus on things that are important to you now just by exposure. Learn only what you need and only if/when you need it.

But if you want to push yourself, greatly speed up your language acquisition, prepare for a test, easily maintain your current ability (passive) or just to become really good at it in this lifetime, by all means you should use all the tools available that will help you do it.

[ファブリス]

He seems to make the assumption that people learn only through flashcards, but what I gather on this board is that you first go through textbooks, audio and video materials, and then create "decks" from these.

Also I gather quite a few people here build Japanese/Japanese decks, for example word on one side and definition on the other side, which makes his arguments moot.

He does have a point about repetition: one could question just how long the SRS reviews can be effective. Is it really useful to keep on repeating the same material months on end? Or would it be more effective to cycle a lot of material, mixing old and new to stimulate learning new items?

But I see where he is coming from. The "evangelizing" of SRSes is really annoying. The Spaced Repetition System is a tool, a means to an end. The end is not to do the daily reps, to maintain a given pass rate, or to expand the deck size. The end is to develop the ability to converse, read and write in a foreign language.

He forgot to add [要出典] about 50 times. Aside from that, he's talking about the perils of 1-to-1 translation, which makes me wonder if he's writing to people who started learning their first foreign language last week, since then it could be considered informative. It would've been nice to know what we should be doing as an alternative to rigidly forcing translations onto Japanese words and constantly thinking in English.

I'm not saying there aren't disadvantages, which I've suffered from myself, but his idea of what it means to "do flashcards" is extremely inflexible, I have no idea where he got his information, and he gave no useful alternatives. For someone who gets all uppity about being criticised after putting "HOURS of work" into his blog, maybe he should provide us with a better end product.

Flashcards are a supplement and should be treated as such.

I use Anki because, as I found long ago, no feasible amount of exposure will keep me from forgetting the vast majority of what I'd hoped to remember, and paper flash cards are much more frustrating than Anki. I find it extremely discouraging to look up *again* a word I've looked up 4+ times before. SRS got rid of that problem, killed the frustration of constantly forgetting things, and thereby helped me stick with Japanese long enough to make a ton of progress.

Though, from the second post, Mr. Yearlyglot sounds ... overly sarcastic, to put it charitably. Not sure why he felt the prostitution ad hominem was a good idea.

Don't use flashcards, except use them. Worthless advice, to be sure, regardless of whether flashcards are actually helpful.

he starts with "I know that this post is going to upset a lot of people,"

also says "My last post turned out to be every bit as controversial as I thought it would. I expected that, because whether right or wrong, people react passionately and defensively any time their beliefs are challenged."

and then says "My intent is not to bash everyone who doesn't agree.... but I will proudly admit to bashing those who came here to argue with me."


nothing to see here...just someone who likes to hear? themselves talk/type. Not to mention, controversial topics are a good way to get traffic.

How to draw attention to your language-learning blog in one easy step.

Why!?

What's with the need to parade these bloggers who make arguments based on extreme/ignorant/highly unlikely/assuming people are stupid cases? They're in their own world. There's nothing we can do or say here that can change that. It takes hell to get a person to change his or her opinion in real life. And whether we like it or not, their opinions are no more valid than our own.

That being said, I don't intent to insult anyone even though I know I will. Nestie

Fabrice picked up on exactly what I did, this guy thinks people who use flashcards use nothing but flashcards. He also expects that the flashcards in your deck have come from a vocab list.

His beliefs are based on erroneous assumptions.

I do immersion as much as possible (living with Japanese now too ) and the stuff I put into Anki is stuff that comes up in the wild (TV, Reading, Convos) and so it's relevant cos I needed to know it at that point in time to understand what I was engaging in. That and the only reason I can understand as much as I can is because SRS helped me not forget stuff. 10,000K vocab in 1 year is only possible with SRS I think... thanks to that I was able to reach the point where I don't need the translation step anymore and it naturally fell away a few months ago. When I listen to Japanese, I understand the Japanese as Japanese. When I talk in Japanese, I think in Japanese. When I don't know how to say something in Japanese I just kinda hit a wall, then think it through in Japanese and don't try and translate from English.

In my view SRS is fantastic in conjunction with immersion. I agree with him, it would be utterly useless and probably detrimental if you used SRS and solely SRS. I hope nobody does that. Of course that would lead to pure translationism in your head all the time. However it's mistaken to think that if you use SRS you will be stuck translating forever. I know from experience.

Edit: As an aside, I know a lot of people who are learning Japanese and I can honestly say that Immersion + SRS = 2 ~ 3x faster than the average learner.

I think mezbub pretty much hit the nail on the head.

I just write down unknown words I encounter throughout the day, whether I read them or hear them, and chuck them into the srs via rikaichan 's' function (which saves the word, reading and meaning to a text file) when I get home. Once I've encountered the word a bunch of times in the srs I then recognise it when I see it in the wild and am able to use the English translation of the word as a starting point to understand it. Eventually the English meaning just drops away and I pick up on extra nuances and so on from repeated exposure within context. This method means I never even need to use a dictionary.

mezbup Wrote:it would be utterly useless and probably detrimental if you used SRS and solely SRS.

You seem to have picked up his fondness for hyperbole.

I can't think of anything that SRS couldn't provide by itself, assuming the supply of material was adequate. It would probably prove to be the most efficient method if someone had the patience and resolve to see it through. Free immersion is fun and useful but hardly more efficient on a minute-by-minute basis. We do it to stop our minds going numb.

Have you ever tried learning non-Japanese factual information using SRS? The rate of acquisition is frightening. I'm sure I speak for many people when I say if only I'd known about this a decade ago. It's the closest thing to a miracle tool that we have seen in terms of education, memorization and learning.

Why is everyone so keen to underplay it all of a sudden? Are we already back to the ol' "You can learn Japanese just by watching anime!" narrative?

harhol Wrote:

mezbup Wrote:it would be utterly useless and probably detrimental if you used SRS and solely SRS.

You seem to have picked up his fondness for hyperbole.

I can't think of anything that SRS couldn't provide by itself, assuming the supply of material was adequate. It would probably prove to be the most efficient method if someone had the patience and resolve to see it through. Free immersion is fun and useful but hardly more efficient on a minute-by-minute basis. We do it to stop our minds going numb.

Have you ever tried learning non-Japanese factual information using SRS? The rate of acquisition is frightening. I'm sure I speak for many people when I say if only I'd known about this a decade ago. It's the closest thing to a miracle tool that we have seen in terms of education, memorization and learning.

Why is everyone so keen to underplay it all of a sudden? Are we already back to the ol' "You can learn Japanese just by watching anime!" narrative?

I was talking about it strictly in terms of language learning. For other stuff, you're right, it's a very fast way to acquire and store knowledge.

Wow, didn't know there were still supporters out there that could think for themselves instead of blindly copying the flashcard gurus :-). Good to see that.

Anyway, the whole discussion turned out to be something ugly, and also ridiculous as both sides used stupid arguments. And yes, most people that think of flashcards think that people only use flashcards, and only learn single word items. If that's the case, you deserve it to be bashed.

However, if you only add sentences and move to monolingual sentences as soon as possible, and use it as a supplement (as prink said), you're just one of the smartest language learners out there.

And for people who think language bloggers don't read forums like this one: you're wrong. I do read several forums, but unfortunately I don't have time to participate. I'll try to be more active on this one though, as I see there's quite some useful advice on it.

Anyway, please do use flashcards. They've helped me to speed up learning Spanish and becoming native-like. Also, it enabled me to fully go monolingual whereas my classmates were still struggling with Spanish-Dutch dictionaries. Now who is using bad methods, they or me? I think the answer is clear.

Welcome to the forum!

Ramse Wrote:And yes, most people that think of flashcards think that people only use flashcards, and only learn single word items. If that's the case, you deserve it to be bashed.

I really don't understand the crusading against flash-carding single vocabulary items and against using bilingual dictionaries. Both are just ways to minimise the time you spend in srs and the time you spend using dictionaries, and therefore maximising the time you have for real reading, listening and conversing. Your first language is an asset in learning another language letting you connect the unknown with something you are familiar with. Seeing example sentences with close matching translations in your own language is also helpful for understanding how the grammar works.

nadiatims Wrote:

Ramse Wrote:And yes, most people that think of flashcards think that people only use flashcards, and only learn single word items. If that's the case, you deserve it to be bashed.

I really don't understand the crusading against flash-carding single vocabulary items and against using bilingual dictionaries. Both are just ways to minimise the time you spend in srs and the time you spend using dictionaries...

Well, I've tried single word items, but for language like Spanish that depend heavily on the gender of words, this only makes things more difficult. If you don't use sentences, the way other words change depending on a noun seems very unnatural, whereas with sentences you not only get a feeling for word order and such, the grammar will also seem less 'weird'.

Next to that, most words can have different meanings. Take the word "tío" for example in Spanish. It can mean 'uncle', but also 'mate'. When used in a sentence I immediately know in what context I can use either word. Simply translating the single word? Not so much...

That's why (I think) many people are against single word items. Also, why wouldn't you give yourself the opportunity to get exposed to a fully working sentence, thus seeing some grammar in action?

Personally, I don't mind single-word cards, if you're using them "right." Taking your example, using "tío," you might consider using the definition you encountered, and then making a new card when you encounter it in the next context. Of course, then you'll have to differentiate between them (which, admittedly, would probably involve putting a sentence on the card).

This comes up with だく and いだく in Japanese, as they both come up as 抱く, and have similar meanings. からい and つらい, also being 辛い. In this case, if you know both, it's good to have 2 cards with sentences differentiating between them.

If you're focus is on learning the language, then I think a sentence is helpful as a reminder as to how the word is used. If you can remember that without a sentence, then don't bother. If you actually want to learn the word, you've gotta encounter it outside the SRS and actually try to use it, getting used to the nuances and meanings.

tl;dr: if you're just going to SRS and nothing else, sentence cards are just as bad as single-vocab words. Encounter and use the word "in the wild" to learn it.

1. Translation
So how are you supposed to figure out the meaning of an unknown word where you do not have enough vocab and/or grammar to look up the meaning in a monolingual dic?

2. One to one translation
"but believing in one-to-one phrases isn’t much better than believing in one-to-one words, and it has the added drawback that learning a whole phrase leaves you incapable of forming your own ideas from individual words."

No, I disagree. One-to-one phrases is much better than words.
Let's look at "have"
# have or possess, either in a concrete or an abstract sense; "She has $1,000 in the bank"; "He has got two beautiful daughters"; "She holds a Master's degree from Harvard"
# have as a feature; "This restaurant features the most famous chefs in France"
# experience: go through (mental or physical states or experiences); "get an idea"; "experience vertigo"; "get nauseous"; "receive injuries"; "have a feeling"
# own: have ownership or possession of; "He owns three houses in Florida"; "How many cars does she have?"
# get: cause to move; cause to be in a certain position or condition; "He got his squad on the ball"; "This let me in for a big surprise"; "He got a girl into trouble"
# consume: serve oneself to, or consume regularly; "Have another bowl of chicken soup!"; "I don't take sugar in my coffee"
# have a personal or business relationship with someone; "have a postdoc"; "have an assistant"; "have a lover"
# hold: organize or be responsible for; "hold a reception"; "have, throw, or make a party"; "give a course"
# have left; "I have two years left"; "I don't have any money left"; "They have two more years before they retire"
# be confronted with; "What do we have here?"; "Now we have a fine mess"
# undergo; "The stocks had a fast run-up"
# suffer from; be ill with; "She has arthritis"
# induce: cause to do; cause to act in a specified manner; "The ads induced me to buy a VCR"; "My children finally got me to buy a computer"; "My wife made me buy a new sofa"
# accept: receive willingly something given or offered; "The only girl who would have him was the miller's daughter"; "I won't have this dog in my house!"; "Please accept my present"
# receive: get something; come into possession of; "receive payment"; "receive a gift"; "receive letters from the front"
YIKES! - EDIT: This reminds me of かかる in Japanese, which is a similar nightmare.

Now think about a phrase that has this word in it: "I have you now!" "Do I have to?" etc... These mean only one thing. They still don't have only one correct translation in another language, but at least they mean only one thing. Phrases have grammar in them, words don't. This is another advantage of phrases.

"learning a whole phrase leaves you incapable of forming your own ideas from individual words." - I wouldn't know the truth or fiction of this, because I've never successfully learned a language.

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Anything you do that's non-production necessarily involves flashcards because how do you understand what you don't understand otherwise? Do you "Rikaichan it" (that's one way of avoiding flashcards)? What would you do if you didn't have rikaichan? Even a list of words you don't know (only - no translations) counts as a stack of flashcards. He recommends you do a lot of production. e.g.. email, Lang8, online voice chat, real person chat. This could be good advice, I don't know - question everything including "production is bad."

jcdietz03 Wrote:He recommends you do a lot of production. e.g.. email, Lang8, online voice chat, real person chat. This could be good advice, I don't know - question everything including "production is bad."

Then the question pops up: how on earth are you going to produce if you never took in comprehensible input? Sure, you can chain watch your favorite shows, which will help you to understand your target language. But at the same time, why would you ignore flashcards as a supplement, if that helps helps you and is just another way of getting comprehensible input?

I think I know enough grammar to be able to produce.
If I wanted to tell someone that "It is cold now in boston and I hate cold weather,"
I know enough words and grammar to guess at it (now, cold, boston, weather, and hate). I'd probably be wrong though. I'd probably be understood though - if you say these five words and nothing else, you get the meaning. How do you develop an ability to talk about the weather other than being wrong and being corrected?

Where did I learn these words? Irrelevant, and if you didn't know them you could look them up in a dictionary, except for Boston (which won't appear in the dictionary - probably).

jcdietz Wrote:How do you develop an ability to talk about the weather other than being wrong and being corrected?

By having listened to and read so much in the target language, that you just know with confidence this is a natural way to say X in this situation.

The whole SRSing sentences thing is way overrated in my opinion. The most important grammar points that dictate how the language functions are demonstrated in every single sentence you'll encounter in the wild, so you don't have to waste time making cards for them. And the more obscure grammar points are for the most part not actually grammar, but rather nuanced vocabulary so these can be learned using simple vocab cards. About the only useful reason I can think of is for occasionally disambiguating certain problem words.