Hi!

I just finished RTK 1, and I'm planning my next steps in this long road called Japanese learning. I think I should emphasize more reading/vocabulary now, as I already have some grammar (and kanjis).

My first thought was: should I do RTK 2 or RTK 3? A lot of people seems to agree with Heisig about RTK 1 - it's good, and it works! But reading the forums, I found mixed feelings for the next books in the series...

My second thought was: maybe I should go back to the Kumon learning method (see some sample material). It already gave me a good background with kana and some grammar (until I stopped it to do RTK 1). It's not very expensive, since it includes a lot of material and you have a teacher (usually a native speaker) to answer your questions and accompany your progress. It's available in several places around the world (I studied it in Brazil), but I'm moving abroad for a year and I don't know if I will be able to do it again soon. I could get/send the material by mail, but it would cost more and I wouldn't be able to "talk" with the teacher.

Then I thought about going on my own: reading books/magazines/mangas with furigana, studying the lyrics of some Japanese songs that I like, playing videogames, listening to JapanesePod101, etc., then adding the vocabulary / compound readings to a SRS program (Twinkle, in my case). I think this is fine, but I'd miss the structured study and companionship that I found in RTK 1 and in Fabrice's site.

What I really think could be great is to find Japanese "penpals". I'm already registered in some sites (some completely free, some with paid features)... but I don't think I have enough vocabulary to start a conversation yet.

I've read some "old" postings in this forums, it seems some people went on different roads and turned back after some time. Your thoughts and suggestions for a next step, as well as paths to avoid, are greatly appreciated!

Thank you!

I'm a huge advocate of the method at http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com, basically you put an enormous amount of sentences into an SRS and "learn" them, while recieving a ton of Japanese input (audio, video, books, internet, &c.) all the time.
Although I'm still very early into the method (only ~600 sentences), I like it a lot. Give that a good read.

Thanks for the reply, uberstuber!

I've seen it before... it's basically the same as I stated on the 5th paragraph: "reading books/magazines/mangas" ... "then adding the vocabulary / compound readings to a SRS program". I do believe it should work out fine (I'm tending to do this anyway), but I'd like to know how it compares to other "methods", too.

I guess it depends on your immediate goal. If you're looking to pass an exam like, say, one of the Japanese Language Proficiency tests within a certain time frame, I would recommend developing a mnemonic system to remembering the on-yomi. I think Vol. 2 helps with this along with a supplementary system mentioned on this site. My personal favorite is Kanji Town. That really worked wonders for me. After you get through this I would recommend Kanji in Context. While you're working though this you should see great results. If you have no timetable and you're not really concerned about passing an exam I would say go for alljapaneseallthetime.com. And, yeah, I agree with uberstuber, SRS is a must.

jamaica Wrote:I guess it depends on your immediate goal.

Absolutely true! I should have stated this clear before. Right now I have no intentions of doing any JPLT, just learn vocabulary. In this case, I don't know if "Kanji Town" / "Kanji Chains" is really necessary, or how much it would help.

Thanks for your post, I was already thinking about that, now I'm more confident that's the way to go.

I'm currently working through Kanji in Context, and I'm picking up vocab at a pretty good pace. However, what's really tripping me up are the readings. Brute force memorizing readings is slowing me down significantly. I'm actually starting to wonder if the RtK2/Kanji Town route might be better in the long run.

Just wanted to add that I'm in the same boat as you Ricardo - I have no intention of taking any JLPT tests. I read as much as possible as well and I think this helps a lot.

suffah Wrote:I'm currently working through Kanji in Context, and I'm picking up vocab at a pretty good pace. However, what's really tripping me up are the readings. Brute force memorizing readings is slowing me down significantly. I'm actually starting to wonder if the RtK2/Kanji Town route might be better in the long run.

I too am finding that brute force is slowing me down. I think that it works (maybe just for some people better than others) but I feel that it might be faster to work out the readings first. Just having all the chinese readings in hand would be a huge help in reading text. I started with the Kanji Town method and then got a hold of the RTK book 2 and am working with it for now.
I would love to see the section on this website finished for RTK 2 (or Kanji Town method). I know there is an incomplete beta version that is in the works so I hope to see it finished soon. The version right now looks promising but there are still some serious bugs to be worked out.
This site has really helped in my RTK 1 study so I would really like to use it for RTK 2 as well.

There are quite a few good threads on this topic already.

I like what jondesousa had to say about learning vocabulary.

EDIT: typo

The most logical conclusion would be RTK III: say whatever you want about RTK II, but you have to admit that Vol. III is an effective extension of Vol. I. While RTK I may seem like a noteworthy accomplishment (and it most certainly is), it's still just a drop in a bucket regarding kanji in general, as this thread would indicate (I've been playing Castlevania a lot as of late and have been noticing quite a few RTK III kanji).

Even if you don't have the book (which you probably don't), Fabrice's work makes it more than easy enough to just keep on truckin', so I hope you do so as tt would be especially easy if you have already made a habit of working on RTK I, which you could just transfer over to RTK III while that habit is still strong.

I'm with Megawarty on this one. It's better to tackle the grammar of Japanese after you discipline yourself to learning the Kanji in RTK3. There's no pain, and all gain.

I simply made skeletal plots along the way. I took notes for each character, list the primitives.

If you're thinking about "too many to memorize" then get out of that thought. Just go through the entire cycle of kanji from 2043-3007, in other words, go for broke. Once you reach the end of the journey to 3007, which looks great, you can take a step back and work on the ones you're comfortable with; The ones I found uncomfortable were the "trees" section. Remember, as Heisig stated in the intro of RTK1, the best order for learning the kanji is by no means the best order for remembering them.

This site covers them, so invest the time. IT'S WORTH IT and you'll be in great shape when you start the grammar. After you traverse the 3007, (I remember about a quarter of it at the moment since I haven't done enough work) Use Tae Kim's guide since it's the most organized approach as far as I know it.

lankydan Wrote:I'm with Megawarty on this one. It's better to tackle the grammar of Japanese after you discipline yourself to learning the Kanji in RTK3. There's no pain, and all gain.

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This site covers them, so invest the time. IT'S WORTH IT and you'll be in great shape when you start the grammar. After you traverse the 3007, (I remember about a quarter of it at the moment since I haven't done enough work) Use Tae Kim's guide since it's the most organized approach as far as I know it.

I don't think this is what Megaqwerty was suggesting... Do you seriously advise learning RTK3 before proceeding to tackle grammar and (I assume) spoken language?

How does RTK3 help you with the study of grammar?! Have you encountered any of the particularly tricky tree names in those examples illustrating grammar rules?

I would advise to take the manga with furigana approach. Use your RTK knowledge to read authentic material. Of course, you can read grammar books/texts in the meantime as a structured way to learn grammar. Use the sentences from manga to reinforce(or even challenge) grammar points you've read in books.

The important thing about Japanese grammar is to make note of the context, formality and environment that the words are spoken in. Instead of focusing on meaning of words, focus on their usage in different situations(and think about what makes each situation different).

It sounds like a lot, but don't get too bogged down. In fact, I have a policy of never taking any notes(even when reading manga). The idea is that if I can't remember it, then it's not important. When people speak, they only use words and phrases that they can remember.

So just continue to study Heisig kanji daily and don't even bother writing down every single word that you don't know(and don't even bother writing down furigana). You're just create a big paper trail that you'll never probably use anyway. Instead, just study the kanji as before and if the word is useful enough, you'll remember it.

I would also suggest watch a lot of Japanese TV. But like my advice on reading, don't write any words down. Just listen and make up the story on your own. At first, everything sounds so fast, but in time it gets easier.

Yes, I do advise studying RTK3 (don't have any of the books) before proceeding to grammar (I remember about 2300 kanji since more work needs to be done). There are a number of characters that are easy to drill, such as the fishes, birds, horses, or any other animal kanji, water or fire primitive kanji.

Another reason why you should study RTK3 before grammar is the Japanese literature. You will no doubt find how bothersome it is when reading it and finding that the 2042 kanji in RTK1 is not enough.

lankydan Wrote:Yes, I do advise studying RTK3 (don't have any of the books) before proceeding to grammar (I remember about 2300 kanji since more work needs to be done). There are a number of characters that are easy to drill, such as the fishes, birds, horses, or any other animal kanji, water or fire primitive kanji.

Another reason why you should study RTK3 before grammar is the Japanese literature. You will no doubt find how bothersome it is when reading it and finding that the 2042 kanji in RTK1 is not enough.

Wow. So how have you succeeded so far in reading literature?

You will no doubt find it bothersome that there is a huge amount of kana linking all those kanji for birds and trees and not having a clue to what all that kana means...

There's merit in continuing on with RTK3 after RTK1, considering that you'd already be well in the Remembering Kanji mode. But if you're mentally exhausted from having completed RTK1 (which I was) then I think you've earned a break from it.

You should of course continue to learn kanji after rtk1, but it is ridiculous to ignore grammar and USING your Japanese. Really you should have been doing that since day 1.