Is it possible to learn Japanese just by reading alot and watching movies/anime/whatever ?
Without doing srs. I think it is possible but the thing with Japanese is that it is harder to read than lets say English. Anybody actually improved his comprehension just by watching and reading Japanese ?

Anything's possible, but I doubt you'll have time to learn much this way. It'd be a very inefficient way to go, in terms of effort.

There is that listening/reading method some people have been doing, but it sounds totally wacky to me. If you don't use any sort of flashcards then you're going to forget words you look up before you see them again. Lots of reading really just solidifies what you've already learned and helps you get used to grammar. You should definitely spend more time reading/listening than using your srs, but don't get rid of it completely.

I have never used SRS, so yes, it's possible. "reading alot and watching/movies/anime/whatever" is pretty vague so I don't know exactly what you're wanting to do, but SRS is not necessary. (I've never really even made much use of flash cards. I used to write down things I was learning on paper, but I never really went back and reviewed it later.)

This is how I learn, I don't use SRS. As for not remembering words you learn, the test comes when I see it again. If I remember it, I'm good. If I don't, I'll look it up again and have a better chance of remembering it next time. If I don't see it again, I didn't need to know it.

I'm suffering from srs overload. Everytime I start a new pack of cards the first few days everything goes fine but then I get too many cards and it takes much longer than it should to srs them all, this means I get almost no time to watch nor read anything. I know that srs works especially when you learn kanji but to retain Japanese sentences or even just a vocab in long term memory doesn't seem to work, if a card is more than 10 or 20 days old I answer it wrong.

It's entirely possible to learn soley through exposure. In fact, most of language learning should be done through exposure anyway. The SRS is really only there to help you remember stuff. It's a method of "focused mass exposure." It exposes you to the thing many many times so that it gets stuck in your memory. the same thing will happen just by watching and listening and reading, but just a bit slower.

So, if you don't like the SRS, don't worry about it. Too many people put too much into the SRS and too little into the exposure.

I'm in the process of switching over my Japanese study to solely RTK reviews and Japanese dramas with anki reviews using subs2srs. My conversational level is seriously lagging behind and want to concentrate on just studying Japanese conversation (drama). I'll let you know how it goes in a few months.

@OP

Tis very possible. And tis very inefficient. I currently do this, due to life and laziness -in part. I've made little progress in the last year. My comprehension of grammar has gone up due to exposure but I'm constantly hearing words that I learned before but are now forgotten.

If you're going to do this, at the very least, write things down.

But if you're going to go through the effort to write it down, why not SRS it?

People overload on SRS because they put too much in at once and it builds up. You're better off, starting with a set time limit and just working on the SRS for that much each day. Simply stop adding new cards if you're feeling overwhelmed.

Ryuujin27 Wrote:Too many people put too much into the SRS and too little into the exposure.

Bullshit. Sorry, had to say it. You won't find a single person on this forum who doesn't put exposure high on their list of priorities.

kazelee Wrote:Bullshit. Sorry, had to say it. You won't find a single person on this forum who doesn't put exposure high on their list of priorities.

Sorry, kazelee. I'm going to have to disagree with you and chalk it up to you personally trying to defend yourself. However, if you read the way some people talk about the SRS (not only on these forums but other places), you will see that some people hold high up in the air as the end all way to learn a language.

Though, I guess by the fact that they praise and use the SRS so much, it would mean that they put exposure high on their list of priorities. So you are technically correct.

P.S. - Since I know the next reply will ask for examples, I'll just provide a few real quick now.

1) The entire thread and concept of sub2srs.

Ok, I'll clarify. The concept is excellent, but it spiraled way out of control when people started just getting all the subs to everything and creating huge decks to study every single line said in every episode/movie. That's unnecessary and a waste of time.

2) Any thread that involves a project dedicated to taking all the sentences out of a textbook or any other learning resource and putting them all in a SRS deck.

Same reason as above.

Totally possible. Genuine exposure cannot be replaced with anything. But, SRS helps you remember things you want to remember too. I think it's all about the balance. I spend average of 10 to 15 minutes a day on SRS and probably 2 to 3 of hours on reading and listening. But I've been using English for a long time and If I were learning a new language, I would probably be spending a lot more time on SRS. Remembering the first 3000 words (the number varies depending on how you count them though) is crucial imo.

"I start a new pack of cards the first few days everything goes fine but then I get too many cards"
It sounds like everybody does this at least once. I did it too It's easy to do 100 new reviews every day for several days but after that you'll be swamped. Why don't you do one tenth of the new reviews and see if you can handle it for 2 weeks?

I really don't like the term "exposure" because it sounds so passive, like you're just sitting there and not doing anything active to engage with the material. "Active" doesn't necessarily mean putting things in SRS, but I think if you're not doing anything but sitting there, it's going to hamper whatever you could be getting out of it.

I'm a majority whore, I go with whatever seems to be the majority when it comes to English. I just copycat how people are using the term

But yeah, I don't think running Japanese audio in the background while you don't understand most of it has any significant effect, so I get your point. When I say "exposure" I'm assuming you understand the large part of the material, be it a novel or Anime or whatever.

Ryuujin27 Wrote:I'm going to have to disagree with you and chalk it up to you personally trying to defend yourself.

I'm defending myself after having admitted to rarely using the SRS in the last year, and stating how inefficient audio/reading alone is comparatively. Roger that

If you're gonna write something down, put it in an SRS. Simple.

Praising an SRS and saying that "exposure" is not of import are totally different things.

@ your first point

You exaggerate once again. The program saves time as people - the one's actually using the material for study and not simply hoarding - would have studied content from the show anyway.

@ your second point

This would be akin to saying that Smartfm is...

Quote:unnecessary and a waste of time.

It's by far one of the most useful tools for language learning I've come across.

Because these project you criticize were made by groups of people rather than a corporation, they are wastes of time. The end result is a benefit to a multitude of people.

Quote:You will see that some people hold [SRS] high up in the air as the end all way to learn a language.

End all? You use very extreme language in writing.

It is very possible to learn a language without SRS. A car with solid tires will get you to your destination.

Stop the exaggeration.

Quote:I don't think running Japanese audio in the background while you don't understand most of it has any significant effect,

Running a repeating section of audio can have much benefit, actually. Hours of incomprehensible noise, on the other hand...

My two cents.

As a guy that writes a lot on paper myself, I've noticed (as production memory) that writing by hand is more efficient than typing for me. This might be a question of frequency though (we all remember the inspector from Monster). Anyway, the SRS relies on another principle, and it should be complementing the "first learning". But since writing by hand is time consuming, I could get people who wouldn't want to do both. The aim of SRS is to give the least exposure as to allow the maximum long term retention, but actually there is this trend to parse old 10K decks against wild occurences to solidify the most frequent items. Again, time is the issue.

About the community projects. @ Ryujin. Wether you believe or not in generative grammar, language is a cognitive process, and while it's being learned it evolves like a tree of modules, founding certain bases and expanding from there. I think the point of sub2srs, and especially the common mining of text books are about the canonicity of the sentences extracted, ie they're natural and reusable and fix clear and simple patterns. It's not about learning cues by heart, but about internalizing patterns (and through something you like in order to deactivate the boredom firewall that hinders learning). It's okay to attack srs (after all, the different algorithms might not be universal, eh?), but if you don't see the point of something, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a waste of time.

You can definitely do it, I just think the uptake of new vocab will be a lot slower.

The reason SRS exists is because the natural mechanism for learning stuff is less than ideal when it comes to language. Not to say it doesn't work, just that it's suboptimal.

If you're spending 3/4 of your time on the SRS and 1/4 on exposure then you're doing it wrong. If you spend 3/4 on exposure and 1/4 on the SRS then you're doing it so right Remembering more and more words makes the exposure you're getting more valueable due to higher comprehension.

I think it's about balance.

A couple months back mattimus posted this http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=6120 . How much French he learned by only watching ~350 hours of television. Where he went from zero to 70% comprehension. So yes it's possible but just imagine if he did a very little bit of studying on top of that 350 hours of input? I would imagine he would of done a heck of a lot better.

As for the SRS argument, I think it's a great handy tool. Flashcards have been proven to be quite effective at assisting learning. SRS is just an smart flashcard system. I don't think I would of gotten anywhere with Kanji without it. Of course SRS is only a tool, if that is your only place your getting exposure, you probably won't be learning as efficiently as possible. But your still certainly learning something.

loverkanji Wrote:I'm suffering from srs overload. Everytime I start a new pack of cards the first few days everything goes fine but then I get too many cards and it takes much longer than it should to srs them all, this means I get almost no time to watch nor read anything. I know that srs works especially when you learn kanji but to retain Japanese sentences or even just a vocab in long term memory doesn't seem to work, if a card is more than 10 or 20 days old I answer it wrong.?

How good is your comprehension now? Your join date would seem to indicate that you've been at this for quite some time. If you can't comfortably read and understand most things now perhaps your method of study has been sub-optimal (though i don't know how much time you spend each day). If SRSing means you have no time for listening and reading and you're not learning the items anyway then ditch it or change the way you use it. Reading and listening to real materials should be the main course. If this is still too difficult it probably means there are gaps in your basic grammar, you don't know enough vocabulary, you don't know enough kanji or you simply haven't had enough practice. If your grammar is lacking, then get away from your srs and just skim through a good grammar reference. Don't bother SRSing it though. Most likely you just don't know enough vocabulary which can be solved by aggressive SRSing of vocabulary and plenty of reading.

I am putting sentences from dictionary of basic Japanese, the sentences in the book are simple enough for me to understand them, I also add sentences from other sources if I want. The thing is that I feel that I have to do all the scheduled cards for the day otherwise I will forget some of them, I mean isn't the reason that the card is scheduled for a review is because NOW is the time to review it? and if I don't review it then and there I forget it (thats what srs is used to prevent)

You can learn any way you want. Don't just expect to pick one method and expect to cruise down learning-highway then come out proficient. You really have to *want* to learn, your brain has to want to learn. Time and time again youtubevids/blogs/posts prop up of people talking about their method, e.g the girl on youtube who learnt by watching anime.

Ultimately it's up to you and your brain. You don't need a neuroscience paper to tell you this either, it's common sense. All the successful learners on this forum (me not included unfortunately ), are successful not because of what method(s) they've used, but because of commitment.

That all said, not-writing seems very bizarre to me

loverkanji Wrote:I am putting sentences from dictionary of basic Japanese, the sentences in the book are simple enough for me to understand them, I also add sentences from other sources if I want. The thing is that I feel that I have to do all the scheduled cards for the day otherwise I will forget some of them, I mean isn't the reason that the card is scheduled for a review is because NOW is the time to review it? and if I don't review it then and there I forget it (thats what srs is used to prevent)

If you're understanding the sentences, why are you making cards for them? You should be SRSing things you don't yet know. Try just reading the example sentences while covering the English to test if you're understanding them correctly. If you're not, read through the explanations. Then if you really feel the need to make grammar cards, just put the target grammar on the front of the card. There's no need to create multiple complete sentence cards for the same grammar point. It's a waste of time and the sentences give away the answer. Just make cards like:
front:Xに比べて
back: compared with X

This will lower the time it takes to create and review cards so you'll be able to progress much faster.

liosama Wrote:Ultimately it's up to you and your brain. You don't need a neuroscience paper to tell you this either, it's common sense. All the successful learners on this forum (me not included unfortunately tongue), are successful not because of what method(s) they've used, but because of commitment.

Commitment usually leads people to eventually find methods that work for them, but it's the action (method) that produces the result. Concrete actions lead to concrete results. Blindly assuming you must be making progress because you're working hard (committed) is a really bad idea. If I could go back in time there are plenty of things I would tell my past self not to bother with. Good methods can accelerate your progress where you might otherwise just give up. This is why good teachers/coaches/mentors etc are so valuable.

I disagree, without a flame, a candle cannot burn or give light to a room.

You need commitment and motivation for any method to work, but that doesn't mean that all methods or equal or that you can do anything you want and you'll eventually end up learning Japanese as long as you really, really want to.

kazelee Wrote:I'm defending myself after having admitted to rarely using the SRS in the last year, and stating how inefficient audio/reading alone is comparatively. Roger that

All I saw was you saying bullshit to my comment on people overloading on the SRS.

Quote:If you're gonna write something down, put it in an SRS. Simple.

It really isn't so simple, though, is it? I have an iPhone and the Anki application and it still wouldn't be easy for me to SRS everything new I saw or wrote down. I often just write stuff a few times because it burns it into my short-term memory, and I can look at that piece of paper a few more times to enforce that, then just keep on doing stuff in Japanese, eventually coming across that word or phrase again and then really enforcing it.

Quote:Praising an SRS and saying that "exposure" is not of import are totally different things.

I said it a few times in my post that an SRS is just another way to get exposure... albeit concentrated exposure. So I agree. I don't know why you are arguing me on this.

Quote:@ your first point

You exaggerate once again. The program saves time as people - the one's actually using the material for study and not simply hoarding - would have studied content from the show anyway.

Yes, but if you are going to study the show, you certainly don't need all the lines. In fact, I'd say you need probably 5% of the total lines, to throw a number out there. So then you have to delete all of the other stuff.

Plus, you will also lose out on the learning experience of replaying that portion of the show multiple times to figure out what they are saying/going into the subs yourself to find it and writing it into your SRS yourself, customizing the card how you want. That's far more valuable than just having the card in your deck.

Quote:@ your second point

This would be akin to saying that Smartfm is...

Quote:unnecessary and a waste of time.

It's by far one of the most useful tools for language learning I've come across.

I don't think I ever mentioned Smartfm in my post. I can't say anything about it, as I used it a bit and didn't really like it. I had to go through too much stuff I already knew very well. Though I think it is an absolutely phenomenal way for beginners to drill vocab.

Quote:Because these project you criticize were made by groups of people rather than a corporation, they are wastes of time. The end result is a benefit to a multitude of people.

I can't decide if you mean that I criticize the projects because they were done by people and not corporations, or if this is suppose to be a continuation, but I'll answer it as the former.

This is an outrageous statement that takes a great stretch of the imagination to surmise from my previous post. I have never, nor will I ever say that corporations churn out better products than small groups of people. In fact, I think exactly the opposite.

Quote:

Quote:You will see that some people hold [SRS] high up in the air as the end all way to learn a language.

End all? You use very extreme language in writing.

It is very possible to learn a language without SRS. A car with solid tires will get you to your destination.

Stop the exaggeration.

Lost me here. Not only did I never make the point that you need an SRS to learn a language, but "end all" isn't a particularly strong phrase, nor is it inappropriate in the context. Some people definitely do think of it as some magical thing that will make them good really fast. The truth of it is, I know students who have been studying half the time I have that haven't even heard of an SRS and are better than I am.

Quote:I don't think running Japanese audio in the background while you don't understand most of it has any significant effect,

Quote:Running a repeating section of audio can have much benefit, actually. Hours of incomprehensible noise, on the other hand...

I didn't say this, so I don't know if you are directing this at me or not.

Smartfm is a generic clone of Rosetta Stone.
What is Rosetta Stone? A collection of paired pictures/photos, audio, and text.
Rosetta Stone is different because it doesn't use any inter-language pairings. You're free to use Smartfm in this way too, if you think it is good. It might be, I don't know. However, bring your own pictures, audio, and text, which is probably not as hard as it sounds.

There are other generic clones of Rosetta Stone out there too.

I think the next thing I will try to further my learning is a blog. A blog doesn't help you learn...you just sort of post about "something interesting I did today" (or what you did, even if it's not interesting) or "what I learned today." I already listen to Japanese music I like in my car each day. I don't have a portable music player...maybe I could get one...I was thinking iPod touch. I would use it while at work, to increase my Japanese exposure. This practice (of listening while working by yourself at your desk) seems to be acceptable at my work. I like studying songs. You'll hear words in the song over and over...it will help you to not forget the words in the song once they are learned.

Another thing I will try is KO2001 which I recently purchased.

I am not having too terribly much trouble learning new words or remembering old ones. I just think I am learning them too slowly to ever be good at Japanese. You have to be more like tata1212 (or whatever their name is) and do like 100+ new cards a day if you want to be good in a reasonable amount of time.

I know many of the kanji now. About 70% of Heisig's 2042 if Anki is to be believed. A major problem I am having is: I cannot remember readings, especially Chinese readings. My brain just cannot learn that "ryoku" is an important reading of 力 (and similar facts).

I read the following over at TVtropes:

Quote:There's a twist on this in a episode of 30 Rock where Liz is speaking German to some Germans (with normal subtitles) and then the Germans speak, almost too fast for the subtitles. The subs say "We acquire to... ... ... ...hubcap... ... ... ... ??????"

TVtropes and 30 Rock are making fun of subtitles as a whole, but I think this is a good approximation what people who are bad at listening actually comprehend. It isn't what you hear though. You don't hear nothing, you hear "unintelligible." Just by listening, you can't figure it out. You have to stop the tape/video, look up those unknown words, and then continue. And if you can't guess the spelling by the audio I wouldn't even bother. It doesn't take long until this process breaks AJATT and Stops Being Fun ™.

Did anyone read this book (available for free at link below)?
http://tesl-ej.org/ej45/tesl-ej.ej45.fr1.pdf
The author of this book is a well-known polygot. Well, not well-known to me but whatever. The author of this book says that for her, reading was the most important thing in learning a new language. Three chapters are devoted to reading and it is discussed throughout the book. Problem is, I can't pick up a Japanese book and read it. I could pick up a Spanish book and read it - I can't speak or read Spanish, but I am 1000% confident that I could pick up a Spanish book, read it, and complete it without much problem (understanding is a different story). Reasons given in the book for why books are good: Books are portable, are simple, can be written in, can be lost and bought again, require only small chunks of time in order to progress, are good for creating a personal lingustic microclimate (whatever that is).

Is there a thread for stream-of-consciousness posts like this? Maybe I really should get a blog.