reading is definitely vital. It helps with all other skills in the language. As for my 100+ per day, I believe you learn as you keep going at a steady rate. Just maintaining it will bring results in the future, if one keeps going that is.

Quote:All I saw was you saying bullshit to my comment on people overloading on the SRS.

Reread the line I called bullshit. It's an exaggeration.

Ryuujin27 Wrote:It really isn't so simple, though, is it? I have an iPhone and the Anki application and it still wouldn't be easy for me to SRS everything new I saw or wrote down.

I'm sure it'd be very hard to enter information on an iPhone. Lo siento.

Quote:

Quote:Praising an SRS and saying that "exposure" is not of import are totally different things.

I said it a few times in my post that an SRS is just another way to get exposure... albeit concentrated exposure. So I agree. I don't know why you are arguing me on this.

The part about chalking things up to defending myself was just confusing, so I restated.

Quote:Yes, but if you are going to study the show, you certainly don't need all the lines. In fact, I'd say you need probably 5% of the total lines, to throw a number out there. So then you have to delete all of the other stuff.

More than 5% from my experience. Also, hitting the delete key and/or easy button is easy.

Quote:Plus, you will also lose out on the learning experience of replaying that portion of the show multiple times to figure out what they are saying/going into the subs yourself to find it and writing it into your SRS yourself, customizing the card how you want. That's far more valuable than just having the card in your deck.

You don't just have the subs. You have the audio and/or the video. You can replay it as many times as you like. You can edit the card to your liking. A hoarder would simply have the card in the deck. If you've never watched the show or never review, then yeah, you might just be wasting time. There are also ways of wasting time without the SRS.

Quote:I don't think I ever mentioned Smartfm in my post. I can't say anything about it, as I used it a bit and didn't really like it. I had to go through too much stuff I already knew very well. Though I think it is an absolutely phenomenal way for beginners to drill vocab.

It's an analogy. You don't have to say it. You called the mining efforts of the individuals on this site a waste of time. Their decks have been more than helpful for many people.

Quote:This is an outrageous statement that takes a great stretch of the imagination to surmise from my previous post. I have never, nor will I ever say that corporations churn out better products than small groups of people. In fact, I think exactly the opposite.

Then why is that their efforts are wastes of time when Smartfm is based around an SRS? How is it a waste of time... I suppose is the real question.

Quote:Lost me here. Not only did I never make the point that you need an SRS to learn a language,

General statement.

Quote:soley through exposure...learning should be done... Too many people put too much into the SRS and too little into the exposure....getting all the subs to everything and creating huge decks to study every single line said in every episode/movie....Any thread that involves a project dedicated to taking all the sentences out of a textbook or any other learning resource and putting them all in a SRS deck....but "end all" isn't a particularly strong phrase, ...some magical thing

You're right. Why on earth would anyone interpret your wording as extreme? I guess a more suitable term is exaggerative.

Quote:I didn't say this, so I don't know if you are directing this at me or not.

not

jcdietz03 Wrote:Smartfm is a generic clone of Rosetta Stone.

:o

Gotta agree with Ryuujin27 on this one. That a lot of people on this forum are abusing the SRS is self evident if you follow enough of the threads. I'd say a good ratio of SRS to reading /listening is maybe 1:10, a bit higher if you're an absolute beginner. Any time spent searching/downloading decks, imputing sentences from textbooks is wasted time that could be spent on actually using Japanese or studying it in a useful manner. People are also far to paranoid of forgetting stuff. There isn't any one word or sentence in Japanese that deserves the amount of time people here focus on them at the expense of growing their overall knowledge.

So unless you're focusing on methods that go through a large amount of material in a short time for a big level up of general knowledge (efficiency), or practicing actual use (reading/listening/speaking/writing) then you're wasting time in my opinion. Heisig is so good because of the efficiency in which you can gain a lot of kanji knowledge. Pure vocab decks again are extremely efficient at rapidly building your vocabulary. For the same reason, long before the invention of srs people have used methods like word lists, parallel texts etc. If you want to improve your grammar just go through a textbook or grammar reference and read all the example sentences. Vanilla sentence method is kind of batshit insane if you ask me.

My study methods are so ruthlessly efficient that I can spend all day arguing about them on an internet forum. In fact, even as I type this I'm absorbing more information than you could even comprehend. Prove it? Why that would just waste time...

harhol Wrote:My study methods are so ruthlessly efficient that I can spend all day arguing about them on an internet forum. In fact, even as I type this I'm absorbing more information than you could even comprehend. Prove it? Why that would just waste time...

Says the fellow with twice as many posts in half the time...Actually I don't know if that was directed at me, but don't you have anything constructive to add to the thread than senseless parody? There are plenty of good reasons behind my and other people's criticims of some of the inefficient methods promoted on this board and I'm just giving suggestions I wish I had received 3 years ago. If you actually have valid counter aruguments, let's hear them.

@nadiatims

That post could be taken either way. Not really worth reprimanding, though, IMO.

nadiatims Wrote:Vanilla sentence method is kind of batshit insane if you ask me.

What is vanilla sentence method?

In response to your entire post: People have been walking since... mans inception (just wanted to use the word). Doesn't mean that cars and airplanes are bat shit crazy. Shit evolves. People do get crazy with SRS. People do waste time with SRS. Though, it is very much possible to go crazy and waste time even without it.

Quote:What is vanilla sentence method?

I mean the method of mining native sources or textbooks for sentences and then turning them into sentence flashcards to review later. This is the standard (vanilla flavoured, no-toppings) method correct me if I'm wrong.

My biggest criticism is the inefficiency of it. You need to type in the sentence in Japanese, convert it to kana (checking for mistakes if you generate it within anki), then type in the meaning in English. As a beginner, you have no way of knowing for sure whether your translation is even correct unless you ask someone (check online etc), or whether it's even particularly useful for you to memorise. If you've encountered the sentence in the wild, and comprehended it to the best of your current abilities why bother SRSing it? Why not just practice applying your current knowledge or gain new knowledge by comprehending another 20 new sentences in the wild (or even in a textbook)? Outside of idiomatic expressions the likelihood that you hear the same sentence again is extremely slim and if it's not then why are you afraid of forgetting it? Putting a sentence card in your srs just ensures that you'll memorise the answer anyway (just as it does for a vocab card), but you won't have to apply any of your knowledge (grammar or vocab) to understand it as you did the first time your saw it in the wild. So getting the answer no longer hinges on actually knowing the words or understanding the grammar. Using a sentence to remember a vocabulary item doesn't guarantee that you'd be able to recognise and understand the word in a different context, so you've spent a bunch of time creating and then reviewing a card that doesn't even do it's job effectively. Plain vocabulary cards on the other hand take about 2 seconds to make and 1 second to review and are better at what they do. The same criticism also applies to sentence cards used to learn grammar. Even if you're only SRSing one out of every 1000 real sentences you encounter (which Khatz seems to be doing), why bother?

Quote:In response to your entire post: People have been walking since... mans inception (just wanted to use the word). Doesn't mean that cars and airplanes are bat shit crazy. Shit evolves. People do get crazy with SRS. People do waste time with SRS. Though, it is very much possible to go crazy and waste time even without it.

What a crap analogy...My point in pointing to older methods (wordlists etc) was just to show that people who successfully learn languages have long recognised the importance of vocabulary acquisition and that the sentence method is relatively new and somewhat faddish. I wasn't criticising SRS anyway (I use anki), I was criticising how people use them (sentence method).

I don't use this 'sentence' method people on about but regarding the criticisms of entering a sentence into anki which I do

You need to type in the sentence in Japanese > so?
convert it to kana > helps remember the reading
then type in the meaning in English > helps remember the meaning

Entering sentences is a good form of study for me, as is finding sentences to enter. I use sentences for practicing grammar points, usually production cards too and also to show how verbs and adjectives are used. If I want to remember the actual vocab I'll add a vocab card too. I guess I have 70-30 in favour of vocab cards in total but it would be way more boring if it was just a barrage of vocab cards.

Different strokes for different folks innit.

This might be a good time to remind folks about Wrightak's Anki Rikaichan plugin. If I understood correctly, it allows you to create an Anki card that includes:
-word
-reading
-meaning in English
-the sentence it came from
-the URL

This might be of interest to those who recognize the value of context but are concerned about maximizing the efficiency of a particular preliminary step. ;-) (There's a thread with a link to Wrightak's site.) I agree with caivano, however, that the act of creating cards can be beneficial.

It depends on the content and how the SRS is being used. Folks here have developed effective new ways to use SRS. Much of it in response to perceived weaknesses of the "vanilla sentence method". Dismissing it all as "self evident abuse" simply means that it fails to conform to one person's more narrow conception. (Kazelee's evolution comment...?)

Not everyone agrees that vocab is the only reviewable thing (especially for beginners). That's okay. Shall we move on?
[edited...]

So you can actually create a card in about 5 seconds with this plugin? Awesome!!
I'll have to post about it in the resources thread.

日本語を学べば学ほどに十人十色なことだと覚えてきます。やはり、人間なので俺の方法が最高だぜと云いたいけど、実は一番最高な方法がないんです。ある人は、フラッシュカードが適して、他人は適しなくて、その人は本好きで、あの人として雑談が語学正道です。

だから、僕はやっと勉強仕方を批判しないものになりました。最後には、私たち語学者は全員、無理なことをしようとしています。新しい言葉を加えるのは不可能だから、「フラッシュカードはダメだぞ」と云えば、自明を云うだけです。どんな技でも、無理を仕上げるのはいけません。

あれば、奇跡なのです。奇跡の説明はバカな話をぜったいに越えません。

不定する人がいるとを認識して、この指示を考えてください。フラッシュカードを勉強した後に能力進級の感覚がありますか？僕の経験によって、カード勉強したり、映画をみたりしたときに、いつでも「それをしてよかったな……学力が溢れるな……レベルアップだぜ！」という気分を遭いません。

実は、いつのまにか、この珍しい言葉が明らかになって、自分の思いが通じれるようになります。色々な方を使って僕はどれが効くか発見できません。丸で語学エルフにかどうにか恵まれたようです。講座や見学や復習やエルフを誘いそうですけど、マジに真実を知らない僕は頑張ってと励ましたり、幸運を願ったりするしかなくてもそう続きます。

The more I study Japanese, the more I realize that it's a matter of ten people, ten kinds. Of course, since we're all human beings, we each want to say my way is the best, but really there is no one best method. Some people find flashcards suitable, others do not, and while that one person likes books, for that other one, just chatting is the true way of language study.

And so, I've finally become the sort to not criticize study methods. In the end every one of us language students is trying to do something unreasonable. Adding a new language is impossible, so saying "flashcards suck" is stating the obvious. No matter what, you can't really finish the impossible.

If you do it's a miracle. And explanations of miracles are never more than foolishness.

I'm sure there are people who will disagree, but I'd ask them to consider this point: do you ever, upon finishing your flashcard study feel a sense of your abilities progressing. In my experience, when I'm studying cards or watching a movie I never find myself in a "wow I'm glad I did that...I'm high on learning...level up!" sort of mood.

The truth is, this marvelous language grows clearer and my thoughts flow in it better without me noticing it. And, I use so many different methods that I can't discover which is working. It's almost like the language-study elf has blessed me with ability. Classes, observation, review, and so on seem to invite that elf to visit, but since I honestly don't know the truth, I can't do any more than to continue to encourage people to keep trying and continue to pray that we'll all get lucky.

それじゃあ、奇跡を起こしに頑張りなさい。

@Thora

You seem to be able to say things in ways I only wish I could.

kittycate44 Wrote:i think flashcards are a complete waste of time, ive forgotten all of the 5,000 cards on smartfm i studied before coming to Japan

The only way I imagine you forgot THAT much is if you didn't review. Studying a lot of info and then NOT reviewing is pure time wasted - no matter what route you take.

nadiatims Wrote:What a crap analogy...

I thought that was evident in my use of the word inception.

Quote:My point in pointing to older methods (wordlists etc) was just to show that people who successfully learn languages have long recognised the importance of vocabulary acquisition and that the sentence method is relatively new and somewhat faddish.

Ohhh. I see now. Any study method can be faddish. What matters is results. If people are seeing results who gives a care if it's faddish.

Quote:I wasn't criticising SRS anyway (I use anki), I was criticising how people use them (sentence method).

Never said you were criticizing SRS. Wasting time seems to be the subject at hand, no?

ah, Kazelee, my ".....?" was more "hint, hint" then an attempt to put my twisted strangled words in your mouth. sorry. I think I'm losing steam, or patience, or perspective...

But Harhol sees the bigger picture. Parody is rarely senseless, really. That whole truth in humour business. And speaking of humour....anyone who can pull off a "self-evident" with a straight face has such control. Impressive. Verging on self-parody. Oh look! we've come full circle. I find it so comforting when life organizes itself into tidy little units like that.

Edit: But let's finish by getting back to Kanjilover's question...

Kanjilover: Lots of good advice for you. As yudantaiteki and nadiatims mentioned, though, it's a bit hard for folks to give specific advice without knowing your language goals and current level and strengths/weaknesses. (A broad question like "Is SRSing good or needed?" just gets the polarized debates started) :-)

But no, SRS isn't necessary. :-) None of my peers who live and work in Japanese used an SRS. Our methods involved more hand writing, though, so there was repetition using different skills. And a few primitive flashcards, of course. Cave paintings. heh. But it would have been easier if SRS had been available then - for memory retention, concentrated exposure and as a convenient reference. I wouldn't be too worried about exact review times, though. You are the boss.

If you can already read comfortably, you'll have no problem progressing without an SRS. I imagine most people use the SRS to get to that stage. Try graded readers or reading textbooks. The grammar and discussion notes are worth it since people often don't realize they're misunderstanding things.

It sounds like SRS feels like a burden to you. Try to come up with a study plan tailored to the reason you are learning Japanese which involves more varied activities. This forum is quite reading focused, but there are other approaches. Using the SRS just to retain favourite expressions you know you'll use (rather than as a comprehensive source of new material) might make it fun again.

Also, textbooks (not reference books) are usually designed with built-in repetition and vocab and grammar integrated into the texts. It's immediately usable, doesn't require SRS and covers several genres. Some experts have already done the work of assembling it all in a beneficial way. Just open...no forum required. ;p

In my experience, the most effective instruction and review involves seeing the same information in different ways. Try, for eg, using a few different materials and quizzes at the same level. You'll avoid SRS backlog dread and enjoy a sense of advancing in each level. Depending on your cards, it might be more active learning.

Learning about the language can really help too. Good cheating... a running start on the time it takes time to acquire language sense through experience.

hopefully more variety will make it feel more spontaneous and fun for you.

Daichi Wrote:A couple months back mattimus posted this http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=6120 . How much French he learned by only watching ~350 hours of television. Where he went from zero to 70% comprehension. So yes it's possible but just imagine if he did a very little bit of studying on top of that 350 hours of input? I would imagine he would of done a heck of a lot better.

Hey that's me! Maybe I could have "done better," maybe I could have done worse by studying, who knows man. I do know that when I was watching Lost with a girl who had recently aced two years of college French classes that I understood the spoken language better than her, even though she could read, write, and conjugate verbs. So, since my goal was pure spoken language acquisition, I think it was a success.

"But don't take my word for it." - LeVar Burton

mattimus Wrote:"But don't take my word for it." - LeVar Burton

When I was a kid, I didn't realize that this was an idiom -- I thought LeVar was trying to be clever by using the word "word" like that, because it was a show about reading.

@kazelee

I forgot about this thread, huh. I'm way to lazy at the moment to quote line by line, so I'll make a general statement before I lose complete interest in this thread.

My original point was to say that people waste time worrying about the SRS. They worry how they should do it, what way is most effective, what content is best, etc. They have to stop doing this and just start doing stuff in Japanese.

You said that it's possible to waste time without the SRS. This is true, unless whatever they are doing is in Japanese. Then it's not a waste of time.

Also I remember you saying something about needing more than 5% of the lines from a show. I still disagree. You don't need them. You can learn the words and grammar from other sources. Furthermore, the fact that it gives you video and audio is moot. It still robs you of the experience of getting it for yourself, which will aid your memory a great deal.

Just last night I was talking to a friend who has far better Japanese than I do, but his English is really lacking. I told him it's because I read like a fiend in English (not anymore, but now I do in Japanese). He wondered if I used the SRS. Naturally I didn't know what an SRS was at this time. Now, I probably remember very little of vocabulary lists and sentences that were thrown at me from school or other sources. But when he was quoting to me GRE words he was studying, I knew all of them and knew where I had learned them. This was because I would always make a big deal of coming across a new word. I would look it up, see it in other contexts, use it myself, tell people about it, etc. Now I do the same thing with Japanese and it helps me remember the words very easily.

I'm not sure if I completely made the point I wanted to here, but I'm now late for somewhere I need to be, so I'll have to go.

Quote:You said that it's possible to waste time without the SRS. This is true, unless whatever they are doing is in Japanese. Then it's not a waste of time.

This need not even be said. Though, there are still ways to waste time in Japanese (general point).

Ryuujin27 Wrote:Also I remember you saying something about needing more than 5% of the lines from a show. I still disagree. You don't need them. You can learn the words and grammar from other sources.

YOU.... don't need them. But then again no one NEEDS the majority things they input. Realistically, all one needs is enough to be able to get their point across. We have hands and we can draw pictures, so....

The first show I used the program with was a law show. More than half the words were incomprehensible. I watched it several dozen times before looking up the words myself. 損害賠償請求 is now burned into my memory. I was able to recite many of lines like Will Smith in "I am Legend," though I had no idea what most of it meant. Once I learned a large portion of the words from the script I entered the show into the SRS.

Once it was in the program I needed not worry about readings because the audio would let me know if I was correct (nadiatims)

Sure I could have picked up a book and read it, looked up the definition of the words, and then read some more. I did so, for a while. But finding the reading of the kanji took a lot of time - without an included dictionary like in Breaking into Japanese Literature. With a drama script finding a definition is as easy as copy and paste.

I rarely read any material of a noneducational sort, and I did not possess enough grammar knowledge to read educational material in Japanese. So this worked well for ME.

Quote:Furthermore, the fact that it gives you video and audio is moot. It still robs you of the experience of getting it for yourself, which will aid your memory a great deal.

Just had to go there didn't ya?

Moot this *see above*

It CAN rob you. I'm sure there are plenty of people being robbed right now.

It is also possible to use SRS as a very good study aid.

Quote:Now I do the same thing with Japanese and it helps me remember the words very easily.

Correct me if I'm wrong. I was under the impression that before you can remember words in this manner, you have to have established a base in the language to begin with.

mattimus Wrote:

Daichi Wrote:A couple months back mattimus posted this http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=6120 . How much French he learned by only watching ~350 hours of television. Where he went from zero to 70% comprehension. So yes it's possible but just imagine if he did a very little bit of studying on top of that 350 hours of input? I would imagine he would of done a heck of a lot better.

Hey that's me! Maybe I could have "done better," maybe I could have done worse by studying, who knows man. I do know that when I was watching Lost with a girl who had recently aced two years of college French classes that I understood the spoken language better than her, even though she could read, write, and conjugate verbs. So, since my goal was pure spoken language acquisition, I think it was a success.

"But don't take my word for it." - LeVar Burton

I think what you accomplished was amazing, I'm not trying to discredit what you did. I'm just pointing out to the main topic creator the results you could achieve.

A lot of people here are prescribing a small amount of SRS or study on top of a lot of mass exposure for the most gain, I tend to believe this is probably a better way to go.

Anyway, to everyone arguing about SRS vs Exposure efficiency, I think a lot of people here are forgetting that everyone is different, and what works for you might not work for the next person. Maybe for some people 9 parts learning language via SRS and 1 part exposure would be a better mix. Who knows, maybe it's not efficient, maybe it's just easy for your busy schedule. So as long as your learning, that should be all that matters. Do I know more then I knew yesterday? Well, that's all I care.

Oh, and Reading Rainbow was awesome.

Sadly this makes me more nostalgic than the show itself.

Also, holy crap this was the 4th video posted on newgrounds?

My two cents:

1) Learning through reading is good. It's static, etc.
2) Lots of SRS is not bad (in the beginning we all start out that way, but later do less as we need to do less - me, I'm SRSing vocab up to 10,000: 6000 core then JPTL to fill it out, atm). My personal experience is that I started out doing a lot, but once I started to be able to decode Kanji and recognize words more quickly then reading has become much easier. Hiragana only words are still a pain.
3) Listening is good. Be a kid: Kids hear words first then slowly build to phrases then gist then partial sentences and then full sentences and, finally, connected sentences. Being a kid is good.
4) Everybody is different.

Tip: Got an Iphone? Get 'Japanese' (dictionary app). You can highlight a word under a category color and cut and paste to Anki later - makes things heaps easier when reading (categorize then add later) - no stopping = happy (you can also review your history of looked up words if you're rereading pages).

Nt: In the future I think I won't need to use my SRS much at all. I think as you get less sucky you get to a point where you live Japanese, not study it.

loverkanji Wrote:I am putting sentences from dictionary of basic Japanese, the sentences in the book are simple enough for me to understand them, I also add sentences from other sources if I want. The thing is that I feel that I have to do all the scheduled cards for the day otherwise I will forget some of them, I mean isn't the reason that the card is scheduled for a review is because NOW is the time to review it? and if I don't review it then and there I forget it (thats what srs is used to prevent)

Are you familiar with timeboxing? Via Anki's 'timer'; a popular method of timeboxing is this one: http://www.43folders.com/2005/10/11/proc...-hack-1025

Also, you do know about the shared DoBJG (and other volumes) sentence deck on Anki? They're all in there, a total of 8555 cards. Very useful to just search for the grammatical pattern in the Anki deck and unsuspend the relevant sentences, grading yourself on how well you understand that point.

You don't have to do all scheduled cards, but it helps to stay caught up. It makes it easier when rather than targeting specific amounts of cards you focus on time.

It always comes back to momentum and consistency determined by how you find the most success.

Pace yourself. Dividing up different types of cards with varying levels of 'overhead' and alternating is useful.

And of course, fixing your SRS sessions amidst periods of non-SRS exposure is good for priming and suchlike.

And of course as you progress, it'll end up a more organic continuum.

I love SRS-flaming.

Also, I think until you reach a certain stage, 60/30/10's a good basic ratio for non-SRS material exposure, based on SRS knowledge. 60% 'youngish mature' to be reinforced, 'planned redundancy'; 30% 'very mature' as a foundation/glue, 10% unknown/young, i+X inference.

It is quite possible. However, it will take a lot longer than learning it the "proper" way...

Speaking from experience... Somehow, I did not manage to learn Kanji just by looking at them. And in order to read, one has to already have obtained a considerable proficiency in Kanji... unless of course one reads stuff online using mouse-over progs like Rikai-Chan... or mangas... but seriuosly, any manga more "sophisticated" than naruto (nothing against it, like it myself xD) will have very little furigana and it will be so tiny one will have watery eyes in no time...

But of course, it is very much possible. Maybe you can do it. I know someone who has learnt about 800 Kanji just by visual memorisation. Took her about 4-5 years though..