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Making the switch to Japanese key words.

#1
Over the last month or two I've been slowly switching my keywords to Japanese. With so many people having memorized the RTK1 Kanji now, it seems likely that more people will start traveling down this path soon. I thought I'd write a bit about making the switch here so that 1) People don't repeat my mistakes and 2) hopefully it sparks a discussion that leads to some good advice or inspiration.

I (obviously) use the keywords greasemonkey script and also the script that brings up the kanji info pages when you hover over the kanji itself. When I want to find a new key word I click over to Jim Breen's page, do a search for compounds after clicking "common words" and "position:any" and then choose words from there. I try to use my best judgment about readings I actually need, but sometimes it's difficult. After choosing words I plug them back into this site. For example 胸 is ムネ・度キョウ.

At first I switched only the cards I got wrong. However, that meant that on average I was only seeing 10-15% of the cards I was reviewing. So then I switched to reviewing normally but clicking no for any card where the keyword was in English. That approach was thorough, but it wreaked havoc with my review schedule and gave me so many cards to study that I found myself avoiding the red cards all together. Then I realized (doh!) that I could click on the keyword while reviewing and access the kanji on another tab. This is the system I use now. It works, and it doesn't artificially increase my stack of red cards, but it really breaks up the flow of a review session.


Problems I have:
1) Accessing Jim Breen's page takes too long. I wish there was a greasemonkey script to take you directly to the kanji compound page with "common word" and "position any" already selected. (please please please Wink )
2) Instead of key words I should be using example sentences. I won't do it though, too much work.
3) I need to spend more time memorizing the words I choose. I have a few kanji whose readings I have no idea about, so after giving them Japanese keywords I just keep failing them. Over and over....

That's about it. Any questions or advice much appreciated.
Edited: 2007-07-10, 7:25 pm
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#2
I don't understand, what will this accomplish in terms of actual Japanese ability? Although the keywords are in english, they are only symbols linking to internal memories/feelings. If you're trying to learn a word for each kanji, why not just handle that as you would any vocab word. I must be missing something...
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#3
I think woelpad's script is great BUT I don't use it. I'm hoping that Fabrice will implement something similar because as I review on different machines, the local change that the script facilitates is of less use to me.

So currently when I find an interesting kanji compound (3 or 4 characters) I am building a spreadsheet that I then review in Twinkle. Not done much so far but this is the idea.

It is much harder to find 2000 "interesting" compounds than I thought.

Question : Answer : Reading

_人三脚 二 ににんさんきゃく
_つ子 三 みつご
自由の_神 女 じゆうのめがみ
_と_尋の神隠し 千 せんとちひろのかみかくし
_景気 不 ふけいき
_事_難 多 たじたなん
_守番電話 留 るすばんでんわ
自_記録 己 じこきろく
授業参_ 加 じゅぎょうさんか
_宙人 宇 うちゅうじん
_豆半島 伊 いずはんとう
お風呂に入って 呂 おふろにはいって
奈_の大仏 良 ならのだいぶつ
_華料理 中 ちゅうかりょうり
京都_ 府 きょうとふ
揚げ出し豆_ 腐 あげだしどうふ
会_室 議 かいぎしつ
年_序列 功 ねんこうじょれつ
外交_ 官 がいこうかん
_理会社 管 かんりがいしゃ
国民保_ 険 こくみんほけん
漢字_定 検 かんじけんてい
篤_家 志 とくしか
_父母 祖 そふぼ
喜_哀楽 怒 きどあいらく
文法_ 編 ぶんぽうへん
学校教育目_ 標 がっこうきょういくもくひょう
合縁_縁 奇 あいえんきえん
_生虫 寄 きせいちゅう
日本_空 航 にほんこうくう
_急車 救 きゅうきゅうしゃ
_濯機 洗 せんたっき
学校規_ 則 がっこうきそく
飛行_ 機 ひこうき
_力して働く 協 きょうりょくしてはたらく
_理大臣 総 そうりだいじん
名探_コナン 偵 めいたんていこなん
東海_ 道 とうかいどう
_験生 受 じゅけんせい
美_室 術 びじゅつしつ
機_化 械 きかいか
_中電灯 懐 かいちゅうでんとう
保_室 健 ほけんしつ
静岡_ 県 しずおかけん
自然環_ 境 しぜんかんきょう
望遠_ 鏡 ぼうえんきょう
証_書 明 しょうめいしょ
市_体育館 民 しみんたいいくかん
不_物 燃 ふねんぶつ
_煙席 禁 きんえんせき
自画_ 像 じがぞう
反体_ 制 はんたいせい
国_連合 際 こくさいれんごう
血_を測る 圧 けつあつをはかる
糖_病 尿 とうにょうびょう
_上部 陸 りくじょうぶ
消費_ 税 しょうひぜい
無_格 資 むしかく
_待状 招 しょうたいじょう
命_文 令 めいれいぶん
大統_ 領 だいとうりょう
可能_ 性 かのうせい
_済学 経 けいざいがく
_便局 郵 ゆうびんきょく
放_後 課 ほうかご
千載一_ 遇 せんざいいちぐう
麦_糖 芽 ばくがとう
年_状 賀 ねんがじょう
_人的に 個 こじんてきに
_会話 英 えいかいわ
_画館 映 えいがかん
中_公園 央 ちゅうおうこうえん
職_室 員 しょくいんしつ
_妹都市 姉 しまいとし
一_円 億 いちおくえん
看_婦 護 かんごふ
_科書 教 きょうかしょ
被_者 害 ひがいしゃ
南校_ 舎 みなみこうしゃ
交_安全 通 こうつうあんぜん
筋肉_ 痛 きんにくつう
知_人 識 ちしきじん
組_的 織 そしきてき
障害_ 者 しょうがいしゃ
研_室 究 けんきゅうしつ
_転車 自 じてんしゃ
自動_ 車 じどうしゃ
_書館 図 としょかん
図_室 書 としょしつ
留_生 学 りゅうがくせい
_間割 時 じかんわり
悪事_里 千 あくじせんり
消_器 火 しょうかき
_常口 非 ひじょうぐち
日_酒 本 にほんしゅ
現在_了 完 げんざいかんりょう
東京_ 都 とうきょうと
天気予_ 報 てんきよほう
相_室 談 そうだんしつ
忘_会 年 ぼうねんかい
_茶店 喫 きっさてん
_業中 営 えいぎょうちゅう
掃_機 除 そうじき
宅_便 急 たっきゅうびん
学校_食 給 がっこうきゅうしょく
質_がある 問 しつもんがある
問_集 題 もんだいしゅう
乗車_ 券 じょうしゃけん
冷蔵_ 庫 れいぞうこ
_治家 政 せいじか
生_会 徒 せいとかい
選_結果 挙 せんきょけっか
新_線 幹 しんかんせん
_生日 誕 たんじょうび
_能人 芸 げいのうじん
_数券 回 かいすうけん
博_家 愛 はくあいか
北_道 海 ほっかいどう
放_室 送 ほうそうしつ
眼_医 科 がんかい
食中_ 毒 しょくちゅうどく
雰_気 囲 ふんいき
_校生 在 ざいこうせい
_在進行形 現 げんざいしんこうけい
駅_競走 伝 えきでんきょうそう
_易会社 貿 ぼうえきがいしゃ
保_園 育 ほいくえん
_人ホーム 老 ろうじんほーむ
健_食品 康 けんこうしょくひん
中_街 華 ちゅうかがい
_床異夢 同 どうしょういむ
猫に小_ 判 ねこにこばん
公_部門 共 こうきょうぶもん
温_知新 故 おんこちしん
_住者 居 きょじゅうしゃ
配膳台 配 はいぜんだい
自動_売機 販 じどうはんばいき
出_社 版 しゅっぱんしゃ
片_名 仮 かたかな
事_室 務 じむしつ
海賊_ 旗 かいぞくき
_礎力アップ 基 きそりょくあっぷ
_馬場 競 けいばじょう
_技場 競 きょうぎじょう
乾電_ 池 かんでんち
_災訓練 防 ぼうさいくんれん
冷_食品 凍 れいとうしょくひん
_車場 駐 ちゅうしゃじょう
右_左_ 往 うおうさおう
出世_道 街 しゅっせかいどう
商店_ 街 しょうてんがい
_持者 支 しじしゃ
悪戦苦_ 闘 あくせんくとう
北朝_ 鮮 きたちょうせん
戸_謄本 籍 こせきとうほん
_政危機 財 ざいせいきき
_立国 独 どくりつこく
不_議 思 ふしぎ
平_点 均 へいきんてん
定_日 休 ていきゅうび
_続詞 接 せつぞくし
血液検_ 査 けつえきけんさ
_味深い 興 きょうみぶかい
建_会社 設 けんせつがいしゃ
_札口 改 かいさつぐち
五体不_足 満 ごたいふまんぞく
幼_園 稚 ようちえん
耐_性 久 たいきゅうせい
不利_ 益 ふりえき
常_漢字 用 じょうようかんじ
_帯電話 携 けいたいでんわ
星_旗 条 せいじょうき
仮定条_ 件 かていじょうけん
免_証 許 めんきょしょう
_風機 扇 せんぷうき
金_の糞 魚 きんぎょのふん
_職活動 就 しゅうしょくかつどう
_学生 留 りゅうがくせい
_養素 栄 えいようそ
_効果 逆 ぎゃくこうか
教育_員会 委 きょういくいいんかい
_刷室 印 いんさつしつ
不_実 確 ふかくじつ
_亡者 死 しぼうしゃ
掲_板 示 けいじばん
貴金_ 属 ききんぞく
_備中 準 じゅんびちゅう
_学旅行 修 しゅうがくりょこう
避難_練 訓 ひなんくんれん
喋らないで_動する 移 しゃべらないでいどうする
日本語_力試験 能 にほんごのうりょくしけん
血_型 液 けつえきがた
_肉強食 弱 じゃくにくきょうしょく
家庭教_ 師 かていきょうし
_飯器 炊 すいはんき
金銭感_ 覚 きんせんかんかく
_在理由 存 そんざいりゆう
_色満面 喜 きしょくまんめん
食_棚 器 しょっきだな
天婦_ 羅 てんぷら
悪口_言 雑 あっこうぞうごん
無我_中 夢 むがむちゅう
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#4
radical_tyro Wrote:I don't understand, what will this accomplish in terms of actual Japanese ability? Although the keywords are in english, they are only symbols linking to internal memories/feelings. If you're trying to learn a word for each kanji, why not just handle that as you would any vocab word. I must be missing something...
I think a lot of this boils down to personal preference, pre-existing japanese ability, and learning abilities.

[I apologize in advance for the length. Smile]

The first time I completed RTK I (a long long time ago) I used Heisig's keywords as given. Later I found that the keywords Heisig assigned often got in my way when it came to learning and understanding new vocabulary. For example, even after I had studied vocab for kanji "x" and knew the wider (and sometimes more correct) meanings and usage of kanji "x", whenever I encountered new vocab using kanji "x" the original Heisig keyword was what always leapt up in my brain. And although it is a testament to how strong the bond between keyword-kanji-writing can be, I found that the keywords didn't naturally get replaced by Japanese concepts as Heisig wrote that they would. This is probably just the way my brain is wired and other people won't encounter this problem.

That is why this time around I didn't just use Heisig's keywords when going through RTK, but rather linked the kanji to Halpern's core meanings and included vocab examples for each kanji learned. I admit that this defeats a lot of Heisig's "divide and conquer" principle, but I already had a solid base of spoken Japanese, so for me it didn't make sense to learn English keywords (or core meanings for that matter) without seeing what Japanese words they are used in. I still have a label to hang each kanji on, it is just a complex label. And yes, this does trip me up at times.

Sometimes the difference in kanji meaning and usage is incredibly clear in Japanese when it is either not clear or is artificial in English. (All the different words for "I" and "self," for example.) Other times they are virtually the same meaning in Japanese so Heisig's keywords with different flavors do come in handy even if they are artificial. Leosmith has mentioned that he uses "basic meaning (identifying primitive)" as his solution to such kanji. A method which I think might have great merit and would like to explore in RTK III.

Was it a lot more work doing it this way? Yes. Would I do it again this way? I'm not sure -- as it really was a LOT more work. And it might have been the case that I simply needed to study harder at that next step to get the RTK I keywords to fade away and be replaced by Japanese concepts/words. Or maybe my brain would've stubbornly stuck to Heisig's keywords this time around as well.

I think Heisig did a brilliant job at ordering the kanji, putting forth the idea of native language labels to hang the writing and meaning on, and for the most part an admirable job of picking one such unique word for every kanji (and even a great job with labels for the primitives). If I were going into this with no or very little Japanese ability/knowledge I would definitely follow the course as laid out, but I think there is more room to play with Heisig's basic approach if you have a good command of spoken Japanese and a large vocabulary. So I can understand that someone might also want to replace their English keywords with Japanese keywords after finishing RTK I, especially if their knowledge of Japanese is already good or has grown as well.
Edited: 2007-07-10, 11:20 pm
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#5
This sounds odd, but I am confused by your confusion radical tyro. I don't see how learning over 4,000 kanji compounds (avg. 2 per kanji) could NOT be good for my Japanese.I am not replacing the English with new Japanese keywords, but with Japanese words that may or may not reflect the "meaning" of the individual character. I already know all the kanji individually (well, know is a strong word, but I'm close). But knowing the kanji individually often means squat if you can't use it combination with other kanji and/or with hirgana. So I guess it is the next step after being able to right the kanji. As for just handling it like any other vocab word, well, put it on a flashcard, study it over and over again, I think that is what I'm doing. Does that make it clear or am I off topic?
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#6
Hyland1 Wrote:I try to use my best judgment about readings I actually need
Hyland1 Wrote:This sounds odd, but I am confused by your confusion radical tyro. I don't see how learning over 4,000 kanji compounds (avg. 2 per kanji) could NOT be good for my Japanese.I am not replacing the English with new Japanese keywords, but with Japanese words that may or may not reflect the "meaning" of the individual character.
It seems you are trying to review RTK2, learning readings and compounds with the kanji flashcards.

At the same time the topic title says "switch to Japanese keywords", but you're not replacing keywords; instead it seems to me you are using them for another purpose; mixing RTk2 and rtk1 reviews.

If this was due to the website's current lack of support for compound/readings reviews and made possible with the Greasemonkey script I would sort of understand, but I find it confusing as well because this doesn't seem the be the reason behind your motivation to switch the keywords.

So all in all to me it seems you are mixing two kind of reviews which is not optimal as far as reviewing goes.

Also how do you write the compound keywords? In phonetics? If they are kanji you are giving up the writing of the character.

Anyway, I don't want to distract from the main purpose of your topic, and don't want to put down the idea itself. I can understand that coming to RTK with a previous strong base of Japanese vocabulary you might want to use Japanese keywords, but in that case I'd consider it personal preference rather than a necessary "next step".
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#7
ファブリス Wrote:So all in all to me it seems you are mixing two kind of reviews which is not optimal as far as reviewing goes.
I have been wondering about this.

My original aim was to switch reviewing to gap fill jukugo as in my above post. That way I am reviewing kanji writing; vocab; readings; and trying to recall the Heisig keywords all in one.

Other than the time it is taking me to find what I consider to be good compounds, what other negatives do you see?
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#8
At fabrice:
Yeah, the title is misleading, sorry about that. As for RTK2, I hate it. That's just me. If it works for you, great. But I let it gather dust on my shelf.
I write the kanji like in the example I gave above. So I usually get to see one character and have to write the other. Actually I try to write both, but it depends on how much time I have.
I don't think this is (and didn't say so, I don't believe) a "necessary step" for anyone, but it's nice for me. I am trying to slowly work away from the English. I speak pretty close to fluent (as I am ever going to get) Japanese, but I still have problems with writing words in compounds. A really simple example being 問題. Of course I can use it conversation, of course I can read it, but it takes me a few seconds to call it up if I have to write it. I want my written Japanese to be like my spoken Japanese, quick and natural. That's the reason I'm moving on to this step. Anyway, if it doesn't work for you, thats cool too.
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#9
synewave I think what you are doing is smart, and I don't see any particular downsides to it; but I have in mind people who have yet to complete RTK1, in that case my initial reaction is that there will be less focus on the writing and meaning, if there is more information to deal with.

As for finding interesting compounds, have you considered duplicating some of your entries? It wouldn't hurt to have one compound 2-3 times and you could then put the fill-in character in another position of the same compound. Just an idea. (That looks very much like the tests in "Nazotte Oboeru Otona no Kanji...." for the Nintendo DS in case you're looking for more compounds).
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