Hello everybody! :-)

For about 15 or 16 years now, i always wanted to learn Japanese, but it was not to happen, until earlier this year. My journey began in April, where i started learning the Kana, which took only about 2 days. I was using Meguro Learning Centers free material to learn the Kana, by hand and by brain, so to say. So i was able to read and to write both from memory. No big task, if you ask me, really.

My next step was to pick up some books, to really learn the language, now that i learned the basic building blocks. I choose Genki would be best for me. So, starting in May, finishing off Genki 1 for the first time by the beginning of June, and having done a review session, of all the Lessons and doing all the exercises again. Just to make sure that i haven't forgotten anything.

This month i wanted to start with Genki 2, which i did, but i also did want to learn the Kanji alongside. Today my journey into Kanji wonderland finally began. And i want you to take part on my journey, sharing some tales, and make it even more fun to learn.

First things first
I really find the RTK approach to learning the Kanji great. Approaching the Kanji by keyword, a little story presenting some primitive meanings, and of course the Kanji itself. It is like learning vocabulary, in a way, keyword - primitive or kanji.

My plan
Finishing the book in 3 months from now. This seems doable to me.

My schedule
I started out today, learning the first 34 frames by heart, in 3h 50min. I take my time to really learn how to write the kanji, and not rushing, just because i could go faster.

Starting Monday ending on Friday i will do 34 frames each day.
Every Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday, i will do a repitition of what i have learned on Monday + Tuesday, Wendesday + Thursday, and on Friday. Every Saturday i will do a big review of the weeks learned kanji.

34 Kanji a day equals 170 kanji a week.
170 Kanji * 4 weeks equals 680 Kanji per month.
680 Kanji * 3 equals 2040 Kanji.

So i should be done in 3 months as planned.

How i learn the Kanji
Here is a little picture to show and explain how i learn. Before clicking on the link, looking at my kanji, dont laugh ... I know how ugly they look like ... *shame* But i only just started learning, and my kanji-handwriting will eventually get better in the future as well.

http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=cimg17514s3h.jpg *say cheese*

In the top-left corner i have written down the frame number.
A little to the right is the stroke count.
A little further to the right i wrote down the primitive meanings.
Between the frame number and the stroke count number i have the kanji written out once - looking into the book how it is done.
After that i have written the kanji 5 times.

I also added the order in which the kanji-strokes are written to the leftmost kanji of each row. This i have done after i have written the kanji out 5 times, not before. I did it, because i thought it is a good way to also make sure that i haven't forgotten the order in which to write a kanji or primitve. (I don't try to remember the stroke count, or the numbers, because with RTK this is learned naturally. So why should i waste time and precious brain space - i do it just for the fun only.)

The page to the right does look pretty much the same as the one to it's left. With one difference.

For instance, look at the kanji for old, 古, to the right, i wrote down 十 and 口 under their primitve meanings. I was perfectly able to do that, with the correct stroke order, without having to flip pages, to see how to write these elements. (I will keep on doing that, because this is really a double benefit, or at least i think it is.)

Final thoughts for the moment
I really like the RTK method, so much i can already tell. It makes it really easy to learn how to write the kanji, without having to constantly think about ten different things at once. Just writing the kanji, having only to think of the stroke order, and having fun - reading the story before actually starting to write the kanji. (I dont rely on the story, but more on the keyword and their primitive meanings. This makes it again a whole lot easier.)

J.W. Heisig has developed a really sophisticated way to learn to remember, and to write the kanji, a powerful tool to work with, and i can only say - it is fun learning that way, with his methods.

Your turn
I am sorry for this "wall of text", but i wish to hear what you think about my approach, what else i could do, and things of that nature.

どうぞ、よろしくお願い致します。
Nagareboshi

I`m not sure what advice to give you except just keep doing what you`re doing. Kanji takes patience, time, diligence and, if possible, interest, and it seems you have all of those qualities. If you can keep up this pace of nearly 4 hours a day for the next three months, you`ll be a kanji badass in no time.

Remember though, RtK 1 is but the first step (although the biggest I suppose). Learning the myriad of readings and compounds for each character will take years. Don`t be afraid to take breaks to let all of the information digest, as 2040 kanji in three months (even if its just the meanings) is a lot to take in.

Hey Nagareboshi, welcome to the forum, and to the wonderful world of Japanese learning!

Welcome to the forum.

It looks to me like you have the right approach and a good attitude as well. I think you also have set a nice goal at three months - not to fast, not to slow. Of course everyone has a different personal pace, but I think you have set a realistic one. Some folks have the idea that they need to rush through RTK, but my feeling about it is to set a steady pace, and try to enjoy it.

You may find that as you progress through, you will refine your method a bit. You may look around the forum and find some useful tips as well. I did like you, and wrote each new kanji multiple times when I first learned it, but after a bit I just wrote it once, and would just write them each time I reviewed them in the SRS (I reviewed on this site).

Good luck on your journey!

Indeed a nice approach and plan, but a plan can remain a well structured and organised plan. What i want to say here is, that you never can know what will happen next in your current life and i do not assume you - being 16 or so right now? - learning every day constantly and permanently 3 months, 4 hours per day (quota). I had plans as well, and a good friend of mine said "A good plan is no plan". Just keep on doin' but remember this.

Tori-kun Wrote:- being 16 or so right now? -

Good advice, Tori-kun, but he can't be 16 or he must have wanted to learn Japanese at the sweet age of 0-1 which is, I guess, a bit early...

All the best to you, Nagareboshi, and welcome to the forum. You've come to the right, if not best place.

Oh, well, i suppose i did not read properly enough, mea culpa \o

@truando: Why didn't you just wrote "the best" place ^^ It's so harmonic and helpful here, you stay at learning japanese and not in organising flame wars, isn't it?

The major issue I see with your method is how you're going to be able to retain all of the information you learn. It seems as though at any given time in your 3-month process, the oldest information you'll be reviewing will be from 5 or 6 days before (i.e. information learned on Monday being reviewed on Saturday). I don't know if this is enough time for it to enter your long-term memory.

It also seems like you're doing a lot of unnecessary work considering it took 4 hours to do 34 (relatively simple) kanji. For instance, drawing a stroke diagram isn't the best use of your time since you'll learn the stroke order naturally as you write them over time.

Heisig makes it really simple: if you can remember the story, you can write the kanji.




Just some things to consider. You seem really enthusiastic so that will help you a lot. Daily work over a long period of time is the best way to learn a language.

Thanks for the welcome, and your comments and suggestions so far.

julianjalapeno every bit of advice is helpful, so is yours, taking time, being dilligent, and keep on doing the way i'm doing. And i do hope you are right - kanji badass - would be something to look forward to.

EratiK, thanks for sharing your opinion. I was able read your original comment, and i would like to clarify some things.

It was an unfortunate choice of words on my side. With "learning by heart" i meant not "rote memorization", but taking the learning process seriously. Really paying attention to every step of the process, even if it means that it will take a bit longer.

The other thing that needs clarification is that I don't try to memorize the story or the keywords. I see them as a bridge, giving me hints, how the kanji are written, and to form an image in my head. And it seems to work, thinking of night break, or gall bladder. I also retain the meanings of the "primitives" on my worksheets just as another bridge, on kanji where those appear, say 六, top hat, animal legs, to keep this information fresh, as well. But only as long as i need this bit of information in my learning process.

The words are not what count. They could be zeroed out alltogether by doing something like this. Say you would want to write old, 古, mouth and ten are the keywords, so using just the frame numbers 10 + 11 = old. But that would be nothing for me, just something i imagine would work for those people, prefering numbers over words.

Tori-kun I do know what you mean. And you are perfectly right, pointing out the fact that nobody can tell what would / could happen in the near future. My plan is not chiseled in stone. It can AND will be altered if there is a need to.

And i'm not sweet 16 anymore. *sigh* Im in my early thirties, 32, to be precise.

chair, thank you for your input. I will use SRS to constantly review those kanji already learned. Just as TaylorSan suggested. Again, i do feel the need to clarify, how i set-up my review schedule.

Monday and Tuesday i learn a set of 68 kanji - being reviewd on Wednesday.
Wednesday and Thursday i will learn another set of 68 kanji - doing a review Fridays.
On Friday i learn the last set of kanji - reviewing them on Saturday.
Saturday is also the day i have planned on doing a big review of my weeks progress.

I did not say, however, i would not review the kanji anymore that i have learned - say week one 170 - Saturday review - Next week another set 170 - and nothing after that. I would have to be a genious to be able to handle things that way. That is where SRS comes into play for me - to challenge me - to see what i was able to memorize, and to see what didn't want to stick.

To your remark about "unnecessary work," and wasting time i have to say: I don't waste time, im just taking my time to learn everything properly. I could have done the 34 kanji covering lesson 1 and 2 in merely 1 hour, maybe less. Because as you said - they are easy. Put in another way, i dont want to hurry, preventing to make mistakes early on - and keeping a good habit.

Again, this is my bad, for not being able to express myself clear enough. Your comment is a valuable one, and i'd like to thank you for it.

Thanks all, for your advice, for taking your time reading and commenting on my topic, for welcoming me - and - most important for me: Assuring me that i am on the right track, and not having made any errors so far.

どうぞ、よろしくお願い致します。
Nagareboshi

Tori-kun Wrote:I had plans as well, and a good friend of mine said "A good plan is no plan". Just keep on doin' but remember this.

While this may not be advice applicable to all aspects of life, this is, by far, the most useful advice I've ever heard when it comes to my Japanese studies. At least in my case, it's so true.

I'm so busted...
But there's a lack of clarity on my side too.

Yes, words are not important but:

-- the image: it's what I feel makes Heisig's method so quick and efficient. A way to remember the image is to have a story for it, because some times, there are complex/dynamic images (more like a movie really), the keyword being a trigger.
-- the keyword: I don't know how your mind works, but the method raises similar problem in each and everyone of us. As you'll see (because, like most of us you don't seem to have a photographic memory), in trying to handle 2000 kanji, namely thousands of primitives arranged differently, the main problem is to avoid confusion on 3 levels:

- form: for examples, some kanji are built the same, but differ only by the length of the strokes. Rather than to think of the meaning, the quickest way to sort them is to have clear, distinct, fixed keywords. (And if you don't like the keywords Heisig propose, you'll be able to custom them in the near future)

- image: kanji involving similar primitives tend to form similar images in the mind (I'm always talking about the image you're suppose to visualize when remembering it, not any other connotation). While the place of such and such primitives can settle as free variation in the memory (ie you will remember 75% of 2 kanji but will forget how they are distinct), the power of the image is that there isn't a quantitative relationship between the kanji and how it is supposed to be triggered (ie the difficult 25% can have all the importance you want in your image, making the remembering much easier than if you just "saw" the primitives)

- meaning: a lot of kanji have similar or very close meanings. Sometimes the only way tell them apart (and possibly the quickest and the most efficient way to me) is to have fixed distinct keywords. And I don't know why you seem to deny the usefulness of keywords, since when you say "I think of nightbreak, I think of a gall bladder", your using the keyword to trigger the kanji (since I assume only people in med school knows what a gall bladder looks like).

But it's just something you'll have to find out through practice I guess, but as chair pointed out, the amount of time you used indicate you might have not used the method properly, and if it's not used properly, it won't work. At least, you've been warned .Let us know how it works out.

Good luck!


EDIT: oh, yes, and another thing, when learning RTK, try to review EVERY DAY, using either this website (Reviewing the kanji (RevTK)) or Anki. When you're finished, you can review every week or such, but while learning, DAILY reviews are essential.

EratiK, i don't think that keywords are not important. They are! They are an integral part in my learning process. They kick off my imagination almost in an instant, letting me see the kanji in question. Worked perfectly with learning all the vocab in Genki. The keywords are perfectly alright for me, too. Though i have read some topics on this website about this particular matter, and other things related to RTK. Not able to judge about that anytime soon. And i dont judge about things i dont know - just to have my say. As are the stories, wich too, are important, as are the primitive meanings.

But, all those parts are not something to learn, but to use as an aid to learn - and the thing to be learned is kanji. That is my whole point.

The thing with the gall bladder is, yes i do know what it looks like, but that is not what i would remember the kanji for consisting of nightbreak and moon / month / part of the body. I would remember that one, because i like the Carry On! TV film series - and Mr. Bigger, who had an accident, landing in hospital - triggered by the keyword gall bladder ...

But again, all i was really trying to say is - that i dont clinge to the words, or the story, be it keywords, be it the primitive meanings, or primitve elements - to learn them instead of the kanji.

The thing with my schedule, and the 4 hours i have given myself, i've been trying to explain this in my second post.

That said, i think it is time to thank you for pointing that out, explaining your view in such detailed manner to me. Much appreciated! I see and understand what you mean, and i will try to be careful, considering what you and all the others here have said. I hope that you understand a bit better now what i was trying to explain here. And i surely will post about my progess, and how things work out for me. :-)

どうぞ、よろしくお願い致します。
Nagareboshi

That's where I think we disagree. In most of the cases, you'll have to learn both the image and the story and the keyword and the kanji. Later on you'll be able to forget that, and will just remember keyword and kanji (sink in stage), and later on only the kanji with a sphere of meaning or a reading (when doing vocab).

Learning a kanji is easy, it's remembering them that's difficult. Let's take an example.
I've just failed the kanji "void" on a review. When I saw it, I recognized it immediately, which means I already learned it. But I failed to produce it because I couldn't remember the link it has with its keyword. To me, failing production from the keyword is a failure in remembering, though I already knew the form. Sure, you might not be interested in production, but that didn't seem to be the case.

@Eratik: I suppose what you meant by "image" so intensely now.. I had this during my Heisig journey, too; after a while i did not see only strokes and dots but real pictures, f.e. how a man was eaten by a tiger or whatever, something bloody, something cruel and grotesque -- with some kanjis i associated even taste and Music, since i like Shamisen. To get the Kanji in my soul, as deep as possible, i even tried to calligraphy them slowly in kaisho.. I know this may sound ridiculous, but it HELPED. The image has to be burned into your skin like the 1x1 you learn in primary, seriously.

@Nageboroshi: I started with genki now, only the vocabulary so far, as i know the basic grammar covered in the first 9 Chapters of the first book, with Anki. Reading Kana is no problem, but now, knowing all the Jyouyou Kanjis, i associated the vocabs (in kana) with Kanji - and it perfectly works. It feels like a wonder, it's not "impossible" for western people to learn an asian language, it's so well possible, even if it seems utopic and unreal at first. And i'm 17 now.. How often i thought, well, Heisig, so inconventional and special, why not trying it -- and after a few months i just felt like giving in! But i completed it, I as normal, average guy.. So never worry about not finishing it, you will. I promise you
After a while you just see the kanji and it's pure automatism knowing the keyword - after a while. Don't force yourself to learn the keywords by heart/image, they will just stay in your mind when you continue learning, gaining experience how kanjis work by themselves, in pictures, by revising steadily what you learnt so far and new material.
As a newbie coming from Rtk1 i can say Genki is a good choice; for self-studies i cut out a few Groupwork exercises, but that's just fine.
Concerning your handwriting (you uploaded a picture in your first post i guess): write them more often, get a better pen (ball pointer by Pilot are very good. Made in Japan, therefore perhaps a bit expensive in the shops, like here, but definitely worth buying, especially the 0.3 mines!) and a mechanical pencil (2HB mine, 0.5mm). A native told me my handwriting looks native now and, oh wonder, that's why i wrote 80 sheets completely grey, hell! But in the end you have to decide on your own what's your goal in learning japanese or more precise with RtK1? Mine was achieving fluency in writing and recognising (Jp<->Ger, vice-versa).

I wish you good luck and keep us informed about your successes
Greets from north Germany, T.

EratiK Reading your last post, i have finally understood what you have been trying to tell me all along. I was absolutely in the wrong, no doubt about it.

Discussing with you about how i try to learn the kanji, trying to explain to you how i see things, i also almost totally missed the whole point of what RTK is all about - Remembering the Kanji. Thats the reason why you think we were disagreeing. That became clear to me now, thanks to you! *and shame on me for that ...*

Looking on the bright side i would say: It is good that this was brought to light in this early stage of learning.

Tori-kun Wrote:But in the end you have to decide on your own what's your goal in learning japanese or more precise with RtK1?

My main goal in learning with RTK is to be able to write and to remember the kanji. I need to fill in a gap between kana -> kanji.

Tori-kun Wrote:Reading Kana is no problem, but now, knowing all the Jyouyou Kanjis, i associated the vocabs (in kana) with Kanji

I was going the other direction as you already know. I know how to write 意地悪な for instance. I can write these and many other words in kanji on my pc. But i was not able to write the kanji - there was, and still is, this gap.

My association with 意地悪な, for instance, was based on their kana mora based phonological representation. Meaning i-ji-wa-ru-na > 意地悪な or vice versa - I remember the sound, i type it in, and out comes; mean spirited. So, if i dont learn the individual kanji, not having any meaning for now - i would be stuck in the long run.

My biggest goal is to reach fluency, in reading, in writing, and in speaking the japanese language. Broken down in several small steps - and goals - to get there. My small goal was reached in June: Finishing Genki. My next will be RTK.

Im thinking about learning japanese, or asian languages, or any language at all, the same you do: it IS possible. Why shouldn't we westerners be able to learn japanese? It is not that hard to learn - at all. All it takes is dedication, time, the will to learn, and the material that works best for the individual learner - to be able to reach ones goals. The benefit is to open up the door in an all new way of thinking (literature), entering a whole new world (physical world - participation), full of incredible things yet unknown and unexperienced.

There sure are times when one thinks - what have i gotten myself into - i dont understand that ... but then there is this sense of accomplishment, realizing, hey - i can read that passage of text, i do remember how to build te-forms. And that keeps me going, i dont quit, if i have a goal i follow throu, no matter how high the obstacle.

Tori-kun Wrote:Concerning your handwriting (you uploaded a picture in your first post i guess): ...

Yes, i have uploaded one in my first post. I will buy the material tomorrow, thanks for your suggestion. And i dont worry all that much about the cost ... i mean ... thinking of how much money i spent for books alone the last couple of months, those few Euros will not cause my financial situation to go rock bottom.

Greetings to Germany from Lower Austria
頑張ってね！
Nagareboshi

I'm crazy, you already know some Japanese.
Check out this thread to see if your case might apply:
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=1020&page=4
Especially ta12121 replies.

Huh? That thread?

That´s just a nice conglomeration of bad arguments for Heisig, bad arguments against Heisig, good arguments against Heisig, good arguments for Heisig, suggestions for alternatives, etc. and has nothing to do with having prior knowledge of Japanese.

How shall I suggest English keywords are not that relevant if you already have some vocabulary then? That it's less straining to learn a hiragana reading of a compound instead?
Do you think I shall directly set him/her in the direction of the Japanese keywords page?
Or am I wrong? Is she/he still a beginner enough to go through the whole English keywords routine?

EratiK Wrote:I'm crazy, you already know some Japanese.

Je dirais que mon japonais est assez bon pour un débutant mais mon français est mauvais ...

EratiK Wrote:How shall I suggest English keywords are not that relevant if you already have some vocabulary then? That it's less straining to learn a hiragana reading of a compound instead?
Do you think I shall directly set him/her in the direction of the Japanese keywords page?
Or am I wrong? Is she/he still a beginner enough to go through the whole English keywords routine?

Yes i do know all the vocab of Genki, and all the Grammar points covered in there. This knowledge makes me able to build simple sentences, talking about this and that - but nothing of any value outside the safe-zone of textbook learning, im afraid. Some vocab i've been picking up from my Grammar books along the way, too, but it really is not much. So I consider myself as still a newbie, with some knowledge of the japanese language.

I have read some parts of the thread under the link you provided, and also the link to another thread http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=285 I think this topic is what you are refering to, correct?

I am curious what this is with the japanese keywords. Am i right in my assumption that it is about something like - say, frame 39, instead of the english keyword in i would use なか? Or say for "month" げつ, instead of day i would use ひ and so on?

Okay, so you seem to be a vocab newbie, so in your case, it might better to go through the whole RTK English/German keywords, with occasional Japanese keywords like I did for the few items I knew like yume, kaze, ai, nami... and later on to turn to the Japanese keywords if you feel like it. Here's the Japanese keywords page:
http://sites.google.com/site/wrightak2/afterrtk1

And the page for English/German/Spanish/French keywords:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=...l=en#gid=0

Ah, great stuff you posted Eratik, i was just looking for this in some sticky marked topics and unfortunately could not find this link in particular (blind?)! As i finished RtK1 by now and started with Genki it will be certainly a nice addition not to forget what i've learnt with Heisig; wrightak, you are awesome <3

Nagareboshi Wrote:Or say for "month" げつ,

No, I would either put ゲツ　in katakana or use つき to distiguish the Chinese reading (ガツ, month, ゲツ, moon) and the Japanese reading (つき, moon) of 月.

Putting the 音読み in katakana and the 訓読み in hiragana is a pretty effort-free way of remembering which you're studying.

EratiK thank you for the links! Yes im a vocab newbie. Could you also link to an English spreadsheet, please?

I am asking because i use English RTK, so the german one is of little to no use to me ... The same goes for all my other learning resources, all are in English language. The English learning books and resources are simply better than the german ones.

hereticalrants thanks for the explanation. I will keep this in mind for my later stages of studying the kanji.

Dear Kanji Kohii Diary - and any member who happens to read without posting - yes, that means you, and you and the guy standing in the back over there.

Roooooo ... meeeeeeow ... Today i hit Frame 123, according to plan, 34 a day. I started out last week Friday, with my first 34, and did another 34 on Monday. I did nothing on Tuesday, the reason for this can be found in the following video *find out* I did nothing but reviewing those kanji already learned. So, today, i had to do 68 Frames instead of 34. That taught me a valuable lesson, i tell you!

Timewise i saw a huge improvement today. Last friday it took almost 4 hours to do my first 34 frames. On monday i did the same number of frames, in less than 3 hours, and today i managed to do the 68 i had to do in 4 hours.

In these 4 hours i came upon many kanji i already knew, 好, 多,右,左, 光, 女 and some others. It really makes all the difference in the world to me, to be able to write all those kanji, and to be able to remember to write them. So far i have seen them almost always in compound with other kanji - due to working through げんき1.

My complaints so far
Lesson 5, Mr. Heisig tells me - not to write the characters more than once. Or, only to write those characters more than once, that dont stick, or whose writing is a bit tough. Why do I have to stumble upon this valuable piece of advice in Lesson 5? This should be written in Lesson 1.

Reviewing
My reviews went pretty smoothly. Only one kanji out of 64 learned i've gotten wrong. Most were easy to remember for me. This suggests to me that my general way of learning seems to be quite alright. *乾杯*

Changes made to my original plan
I will not continue to study with Genki 2, but working only on my kanji with RTK. I also let the SRS take over my schedule for reviewing the kanji. It takes time to learn to remember the kanji, to write them, to SRS them, to review them. So, that is why i will skip on Genki 2, and concentrate on kanji instead. I think this will help me in the long run with Genki 2 and An Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese.

Final thoughts for the moment
I will not be lazy again, and i will keep you updated how things work out. My writing has improved just a bit since last time. This time i will not post a picture of that. But i would be curious how Tori-kun's pages do look like. No white space, everything full of kanji, ..., would you be willing to upload a sample picture?

Your turn
Don't lurk, write. *hihi*

どうぞ、よろしくお願い致します。
Nagareboshi

EratiK Wrote:And the page for English/German/Spanish/French keywords:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=...l=en#gid=0

I should have explained, they're all on the same sheet (along with the kanji)...
Nice to know everything goes according to plan. Keep reviewing daily. Yes, setting aside Genki is probably a good idea, but it's a matter of feeling; you can still do some if you have extra time or are bored with RTK. See you soon.