Pardon me if there are similar threads already even though I wasn't able to find any.

So I just "finished" RTK1 and should move on to _something_ at least. Let's say that I know kana.

For me sentence mining seems odd. I don't know much about this method but I believe it's basically that you write down new sentences that you encounter while reading or listening to Japanese. I don't understand how this method should work for someone who has just finished RTK since all new sentences that you add to your SRS deck should have maybe 80% of already known words. But for someone who has just finished RTK there should be, in theory, exactly zero words that you know so all sentences should be written down and I don't know how anyone could understand such sentence.

Also it really takes time to add those cards to your SRS. Also not everyone have the to mine sentences (watch much anime/read manga). Also how the heck should you be able to undestand the sentences since you don't... understand them?

I found Smart.fm's deck with voices. That seem really cool but here, as well, someone who has just finished RTK should not have much understanding of what is being said. Also I would appreciate if someone could tell me how this is supposed to work.

Also I could enroll a class but I kinda want to keep self-studying Japanese with my own pace.

Please tell me more details about the recommended ways to keep going.

E: What is a consistent, powerful and solid way to continue?

Also the AJATT dude told us something about avoiding some textbooks since the language there is "not real" or "produced by a native speaker". Is that a big matter in fact and how does these other paths differ in that sense?

Also I suppose RKT2 is one option.

Nukemarine Wrote:I'll be honest, this is more of a thread I can link to whenever anyone asks "what next?"

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=5110

This thread has a fairly short summary of the usual sets of opinions. Me, I'd recommend finding a reasonable textbook. You could also do a lot worse than reading Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners.

You should make sure to get grammar under your belt, like with this book Japanese the Manga Way that I talked about here: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid116942

You don't have to mine sentences, you can just make a vocab deck. Will serve you extremely well in the long run. Is fast, easy to maintain and a very systematic way of doing things.

I recommend you also do something like Tae Kim / KO2001.

From my experience of trying and failing certain methods I'd suggest starting with a fairly solid vocab deck (1000-2000 words), reading through Tae Kim's guide a few times and then systematically "mining" beginner grammar guides like All About Particles and A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar while steadily adding to the vocab deck.

mezbup, harhol... You're both in your right minds, no? So why would you recommend Tae Kim over Japanese the Manga Way? http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid116942

mezbup Wrote:You don't have to mine sentences, you can just make a vocab deck. Will serve you extremely well in the long run. Is fast, easy to maintain and a very systematic way of doing things.

I recommend you also do something like Tae Kim / KO2001.

You started reviewing vocab cards after you had done a fairly large amount of sentence mining, right?

I recently transitioned from sentence cards to vocab cards, and I'm not sure starting with vocab cards from the start would have been the best idea. I completed the entire Core2k using sentence cards, and I think the constant exposure to basic sentence structures has been helpful for me. I can now more or less immediately recognize and understand any sentence I encounter that makes use of the basic structures I've learned through Core2k. However, I should say that I probably reached this stage after the first hundred or so sentences of Core2k. Focusing on vocab will definitely yield better mileage in terms of comprehension, but it's important to not neglect understanding sentence structures, especially as a beginner.

When it comes to vocab cards, I've found it helpful to include an example sentence on the answer side of the card. Most of the time, I never look at the example sentence or I only look at it the first time I review the card. However, sometimes I come across a word and ask myself, "How would this be used in a sentence?" The example sentences are helpful in this type of situation. I wouldn't take the time to add example sentences to vocab cards I make through Rikaichan, but it's no problem with the Core series since the sentences are included anyway.

At any rate, OP, I hope this gives you a better idea of the differences between sentence and vocab cards.

@nest0r: they're probably just not familiar with it since it's a fairly rare book and is seldom mentioned by other users on this forum. I've never seen the book at any of the Kinokuniya stores, although I've seen it's inferior cousin, Japanese in Mangaland at every Kinokuniya I've browsed. All of these factors are unfortunate since, from the parts I've read thus far, it's easier to comprehend and far less dry than Tae Kim's guide and any other introductory grammar texts I've picked up.

Yep that's a damned shame. Well, now no one has any excuses not to use Japanese the Manga Way. Hypothetically speaking, I mean, I'm certainly not referring to any links in this thread that do not by any means make it possible to use the book in question.

nest0r Wrote:mezbup, harhol... You're both in your right minds, no? So why would you recommend Tae Kim over Japanese the Manga Way?

I hadn't previously heard of it, but funnily enough I was browsing the internet today and all of a sudden it started downloading itself onto my hard drive.

vileru Wrote:

mezbup Wrote:You don't have to mine sentences, you can just make a vocab deck. Will serve you extremely well in the long run. Is fast, easy to maintain and a very systematic way of doing things.

I recommend you also do something like Tae Kim / KO2001.

You started reviewing vocab cards after you had done a fairly large amount of sentence mining, right?

I didn't really do sentence mining cos It just wasn't for me. I did however complete Tae Kim, KO2001 and KM2 before before moving to just doing vocab. So yeah, a tonne of sentences first is highly recommended. Though in hindsight I wish I had created the vocab deck at the same time as doing those things just to make it easier to keep track of things.

harhol Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:mezbup, harhol... You're both in your right minds, no? So why would you recommend Tae Kim over Japanese the Manga Way?

I hadn't previously heard of it, but funnily enough I was browsing the internet today and all of a sudden it started downloading itself onto my hard drive.

Cool! I mean, that's wrong. But if you like it, spread the word. Now that it's hypothetically 'out there' infecting innocent browsers' computers, there's no need for other, lesser guides like Tae Kim or something something Mangaland.

Let's just say Mangaland is for younger people, no shame in that...
(so yes, there is a need for other, lesser guides )

I'm actually planning on making a guide to learning japanese[to help people in the beginning phases+beyond]. Containing both motivational/key points/what exactly to study. I want to have a draft up during my reading week.

I'm deciding to make one because a few people at work were really impressed that I could learn japanese[I guess when you look at me, you wouldn't expect me to be learning japanese of all languages]. But when I say I'm learning it on my own, that's what get's them the most.

I said I'm only half way to fluent, but no were near it. They are like that's insane. It does make me happy that I've gotten far but no were near what I want though. But anyone can learn it if they want to, that's the main thing!

EratiK Wrote:Let's just say Mangaland is for younger people, no shame in that...
(so yes, there is a need for other, lesser guides )

I don't think Japanese in Mangaland is childish (haven't really looked), it just seems like Japanese the Manga Way/Mangajin was its template, and why use the copycat when you can get the good stuff straight from the source. ;p

Even without its use of native manga material I'd recommend JMW though, I never understood the appeal of Tae Kim's alleged clarity or the arguments about manga as a guide being too informal, because JMW is so comprehensive and clear it spoiled me from the onset. Likewise with the strategies to learn to decompose sentences--as I started out using the JMW template, by the time I was partway through I had already internalized the parsing strategy so that it was automatic when I came across other sources.

nest0r Wrote:Even without its use of native manga material I'd recommend JMW though, I never understood the appeal of Tae Kim's alleged clarity or the arguments about manga as a guide being too informal, because JMW is so comprehensive and clear it spoiled me from the onset. Likewise with the strategies to learn to decompose sentences--as I started out using the JMW template, by the time I was partway through I had already internalized the parsing strategy so that it was automatic when I came across other sources.

I recently finished RTK1 and asked myself the same thing as the OP: "What now?". Since Tae Kim is mentioned and/or recommended like a zillion times here on the forum I gave it a try and so far have worked my way through the 'Basic Grammar'. However, the part about 'の' substituting nouns and 'の' with an explanatory meaning confused the hell out of me...
Yesterday I also fell victim to the mysterious JMW-virus that seems to be infesting innocent browers lately. I have a vague hope that this unfortunate incident will somehow alleviate my confusion. I'll let you know how that turns out...

I've not finished RtK yet, but I'm getting close. I couldn't wait and I've been pondering how to study Japanese, testing a lot of stuff. Tried Tae Kim, Anki decks, Japanese in Mangaland, Pimsleur, Rosseta Stone... etc. Some short impressions. This is coming from a novice in the language, and of course everything varies from person to person, what works for me may not work for you and viceversa:

- Tae Kim: dry, cluttered, too few exercises and examples, too much convoluted explanations. Huge minus not being printer friendly, as I still need furigana. Hovering the cursor for furigana is flashy but useless.
- Anki Decks: utterly confusing, hard and boring. Could work as a supplement on the side, but not as the main resource of learning for me.
- Japanese in Mangaland: romaji everywhere -> dropped. Glanced through the first book and it was too big when it actually didn't seem to cover much ground.
- Rosseta stone: Crap. Sloooow and stupid. A complete waste of time.
- Pimsleur: great for listening and pronunciation, but too few explanations for really learning the language, and of course 0 writing/reading.

None of those convinced me, so I took a look at more conventional textbooks. Finally settled for the Minna no Nihongo textbook. It's just great. Entirely in Japanese, it was a bit daunting at first, but if you pair it with the "translations and grammatical notes" supplement everything works great. It's divided into manageable short lessons full of examples and exercises; before doing a lesson, you review the vocab list and read the (very good, short but to the point) grammatical notes. It's organized in a way that makes self-study easy. It's also refreshing to be able to sit anywhere and study without having to be hooked to a computer screen.
A huge plus for me is that it's not some obscure and mysterious method; it's a renowned book that will put you at a (roughly) jlpt4 level by the first volume and a jlpt3 on the second, so you know it's going to work and how much. You know you aren't wasting your time; I have a clear goal (in this case, two) with a clear "prize", which I find critical for my motivation.

Keep in mind I only tested resources available in my language (Spanish) or not language-dependent. Maybe there's some holy grail of Japanese only available in English that I couldn't try.

@DKnight:

1. Concerning Japanese in MangaLand.. Before i came across RtK, actually when i started my journey through the japanese jungle, i got this book (also in my mother tongue) and had a brief look through it to get some basic idea what japanese is and how it works, that's it. In my opinion one cannot use this book seriously for learning Japanese and achieving good languages skills. But for a first "look through" it's just fine and intended for absolute newcomers.

2. Concerning Minna no nihongo.. I must say a huge plus is that it's entirely written in japanese and you won't come across any Romaji. That's fine, but irritating for me at least is the splitting into 3 books (or 2.. i do not remember exactly, but i suppose there was more than one, covering vocabulary, grammar and something else, maybe the solutions). I just felt uncomfortable using 3 books (which is actually just one!) at the same time, was not my cup of tea, but everyone has to try for himself/herself and see which is the best way. Also it's not very intended for selfstudies as it contains a lot of exercises only be done in group/coursework. For people coming to japan and attending Courses it's one of the first choices (I heard that from a collegue being in japan for 10 months and taking classes. they used Minna no nihongo, too). An alternative could be the - a pity that it is so expensive, but look ahead - "Genki" series by the Japan times.

3. Concerning Anki.. Seems to be monotonous at first, but coreXk series persuaded me it can be a lot of fun -- and how efficient it really is! It's a powerful tool every japanese learner should at least try to implement into his learning progress to revise and learn. (Same here.. Not yet the main learning resource, but using it a lot though).

4. Rosetta.. Has similarities to Anki+Core2k/6k in my opinion, doesn't it?

5. Tae Kim.. Basic, but also, I find your arguments fit into my situation.

@DKNight

-Japanese the Manga Way: Awesome.

@Tori-kun

6. Japanese the Manga Way.. Awesome

Source: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid117034 (What would happen if you took the random alphanumeric strings from the last few links on that page and plugged them into tinyurl.com URLs... )

gyouza Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:Even without its use of native manga material I'd recommend JMW though, I never understood the appeal of Tae Kim's alleged clarity or the arguments about manga as a guide being too informal, because JMW is so comprehensive and clear it spoiled me from the onset. Likewise with the strategies to learn to decompose sentences--as I started out using the JMW template, by the time I was partway through I had already internalized the parsing strategy so that it was automatic when I came across other sources.

I recently finished RTK1 and asked myself the same thing as the OP: "What now?". Since Tae Kim is mentioned and/or recommended like a zillion times here on the forum I gave it a try and so far have worked my way through the 'Basic Grammar'. However, the part about 'の' substituting nouns and 'の' with an explanatory meaning confused the hell out of me...
Yesterday I also fell victim to the mysterious JMW-virus that seems to be infesting innocent browers lately. I have a vague hope that this unfortunate incident will somehow alleviate my confusion. I'll let you know how that turns out...

Yeah I learned all about の from JMW. I hope the virus works out.

nest0r Wrote:@DKNight

-Japanese the Manga Way: Awesome.

Awesomely in English, which is useless to me. I don't think it's a good idea to learn a language with a resource that is not in your native or target language, specially one like that which is chock full of English text.

DKnight Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:@DKNight

-Japanese the Manga Way: Awesome.

Awesomely in English, which is useless to me. I don't think it's a good idea to learn a language with a resource that is not in your native or target language, specially one like that which is chock full of English text.

I don't know (it's what I do).
You stop paying attention to English after a while to focus on the target language (but, yes, my deck is in my native language).
The only side-effect I see is it might be slower, but a only trifle (compared to a resource in my native language), since I loose most of my time trying to decipher the Japanese examples (but I'm improving).

I have no problem studying with resources like that.
It's a lot better to read something that you understand and can actually learn from rather than trying to decipher something that is too complicated for you.

I'm currently doing my vocab studies for JLPT 1 as J-E cards. If it's just recognition I'm worried about, I just need an idea -- a translation. I know that I'll pick up the actual uses though exposure.....Actual exposure, when I'm in Japan. It never seems to sink in if I just read stuff.

Why? It's fast, its effective, and I don't waste my time trying to decipher things into a halfway-understood maybe-mistaken understanding of an often poor description in Japanese (I'm looking at you, kanzen master grammar. Despite being a good book, sometimes "けど" is not the "grammar description" I was hoping for)