A moment ago I tried to read a bit from Tae Kim's grammar guide, but then I noticed that it was very difficult for me to understand it. I read it again and again, but I just couldn't understand a word. Has anyone else experienced anything similar to my experience?

Koin1 Wrote:A moment ago I tried to read a bit from Tae Kim's grammar guide, but then I noticed that it was very difficult for me to understand it. I read it again and again, but I just couldn't understand a word. Has anyone else experienced anything similar to my experience?

You pretty much described my every day. I've read about koto like a billion times from multiple sources (including a very useful thread on this forum that made me believe I've finally got it) and despite that every time it I see it in the wild I'm still surprised its there.

Languages are wierd in that if you don't understand a part just skip it and come back later. With me it seems that learning a bunch of vocabulary or random peices of Japanese grammar helps me construct a "Japanese logic" so when I come back to that one point it makes sense. I remember "より" being really hard to understand. But with exposure it seeped in.

がんばってください！

Which bit?

harhol Wrote:Which bit?

Just random bits here and there. For example "Another similar use of the 「と」 particle is to show an action that was done together with someone or something else." was a pain, even though it's a simple sentence.

I've felt the same way, so I stopped reading Tae Kim's Guide. At first I thought that maybe all the new kanji were confusing me, but now I think it's simply not made for me.
Now, I wait until I encounter a grammar point I don't understand (which happens... all the time) and THEN I look it up and read explanations about it. When done in this way, I finally understand grammar explanations that were completle incomprehensible to me before.

Happened to me as well, the thing is: I'd say come back once you've immersed in huge quantities, in a few months and come back. Also srs those hard points with english translations. I guarantee you should come back and understanding the points you couldn't. A good majority of the time, it's a vocab thing as well. If you don't know the words with the grammar/sentence points, it makes it harder.

Koin1 Wrote:A moment ago I tried to read a bit from Tae Kim's grammar guide, but then I noticed that it was very difficult for me to understand it. I read it again and again, but I just couldn't understand a word. Has anyone else experienced anything similar to my experience?

Basically Tae Kim's grammar guide is not very detailed. It's one of the best free resources out there, but it is not as good as some of the textbooks and grammar references which you can buy. These have more examples and longer explanations.

As thurd says, some grammar points (for example koto, mono) are complicated and have a lot of different uses. These you often have to come back to several times, and it will take time and exposure to understand them. The use of と in sentences like "友達と話した。" is not one of those complicated points. It just needs a little bit more than the single sentence of explanation and two trivial examples that Tae Kim gives it...

Conclusion: get a better grammar resource.

Free (online or download pdf) or you can buy hardcopy: "An introduction to Japanese - Syntax, Grammar & Language" at http://grammar.nihongoresources.com/doku.php

Can't say how it compares to Tae Kim, since I've looked at neither in detail.

Koin1 Wrote:

harhol Wrote:Which bit?

Just random bits here and there. For example "Another similar use of the 「と」 particle is to show an action that was done together with someone or something else." was a pain, even though it's a simple sentence.

Tae Kim intentionally keeps his explanations basic in order to make his guide more accessible, so you'll struggle to find a more simple explanation. The Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar describes the same grammar point as "a particle marking the noun phrase which maintains a reciprocal relationship with the subject of a clause".

I think the problem in this case may actually be that TK's explanation is too simple, in that it doesn't convey the subtleties of the usage, so you don't really get a feel for when or how or why to use it. I'd strongly recommend getting a copy of the DBJG (either buy it or Google the title + 'djvu'). It's explanations are detailed and complex but in a way that makes things easy to understand... if that makes sense.

I often find grammar explanations incomprehensible, at least at first. I need example sentences and lots of 'em. That's why I 心 the DBJG. The explanations can be dense, but they're precise, and the example sentences are the best I've seen anywhere. The book's a bit spendy, but I've had good luck buying used books online.

I know what you're saying. I am forever plagued by the usage of ~ている . I mean I understand it when it is explained in English but I don't know when or how to use it in Japanese. Case and point, paraphrased from Core 2000, "店は空いていました”=the store was empty vs. "店は空いた”　= the store was empty?

空く = to become empty

店は空いていました = store was becoming empty
店は空いた = store became empty

You use whichever one fits and makes sense depending on what you want to say.

harhol Wrote:空く = to become empty

店は空いていました = store was becoming empty
店は空いた = store became empty

You use whichever one fits and makes sense depending on what you want to say.

it's not as simple as that but I can't explain in English, the 2nd one sounds kinda strange to me. You just need to read and listen to the structures being used thousands of times and you start to get an idea.

harhol Wrote:空く = to become empty

店は空いていました = store was becoming empty
店は空いた = store became empty

You use whichever one fits and makes sense depending on what you want to say.

I'd have interpreted those as:

店は空いていました = store was empty (ie in the state of being empty)
店は空いた = the store emptied?

The latter isn't anywhere near as common a thing to say as the former. Vている in this context represents a continuous state (and works almost like an adjective). It's used with an intransitive verb that describes something changing state (to become empty, for example).　Vていた is merely the past tense of this.

"Empty", as in "the store was empty", in english is an adjective. 空いている is the japanese equivalent. 空いた is rarely what you want if you're asking these sort of questions.

I think, lol

空いた店 would be fine as "an empty store".

yudantaiteki Wrote:空いた店 would be fine as "an empty store".

Damn. I really gotta stop trying to help people. It just makes me realise i don't understand what's going on　either.

zigmonty Wrote:Damn. I really gotta stop trying to help people. It just makes me realise i don't understand what's going on　either.

Nah. Just think of it as contributing to the discussion. You don't have to be right every time.

Part of it is just that we haven't heard these things countless timse so we don't know the right way to say it.

Case in point: I was going through a Japanese worksheet today, and it wanted me to translate two things: 1) "Take a bath" and 2) "Can I have this"

The first one was easy. Why? When I was in Japan for a month, I heard that countless times every day. おふろに入て (well I hope it's that, at least similar to that), but the second one I had no idea how to phrase it because I've never heard that before.