Many hostesses become pretty disillusioned and see all love and fake and shallow, so see no point in doing it but still want some intimate contact. There is also the problem that almost no man would want their partner to be an active hostess and so they'd need to keep it secret, and "norms" usually don't understand the industry so it's hard to have something in common. Also, they are pretty disgusted with the normal men who are their clients in general.

One of my hostess friends actually just wrote a mixi post last week or so saying how disinterested she was in normal men and just wanted to spend money at host clubs instead. I was going to excerpt it here but she deleted her account because of a stalker :/

Jarvik7 Wrote:While getting enough 指名 is vital to the hostess making money and retaining their job, and going out with clients outside the club is expected, that still doesn't mean sex, it just means going to another bar or a performance of somesort. In fact the entire point is never having sex. The hostess continues leading the client on thinking that if he frequents the club more and 指名s her, gives more gifts, takes her out more, etc etc that eventually he'll get laid. Usually it never happens and in fact most clubs look down on it and the hostess will need to do it on the sly (either for money or because she likes the client) to prevent them from finding out. it's the same idea as VIP rooms and the fraudulent 出会い系 sites (which are the majority).

Yea it doesn't always mean sex but the pressure to do "extra" is enormous and I'm sure your friends can attest to it. The pressure is why my girlfriend got out.

And my comment about the lucrative pay was in a separate post for a reason. It is referring to the book claim that prostitutes generally make 15 million+ yen. Not about hosting.

IceCream - I'll see if I can find that documentary. Amusing title. Thanks.

I once helped two Thai sex workers who had been smuggled to Japan and found themselves in stateless limbo - not recognized by either Thailand or Japan. The Japanese govt had been slow to grant some kind of special visa status to victims of human trafficking despite int'l pressure. That's when I first heard that it was common for foreign sex workers to pay male prostitutes for sex. At the time, I guessed that it had something to do with discrimination. I now see that the same thing occurs among Japanese sex workers, too.

The reasons you and J7 gave make sense. I hope they can regain the ability to trust and love and be intimate. Society's simultaneous consumption, judgment and disregard of these women is unfair.

[edit: there's also a documentary called 'Sex Traffic' about international trafficking of women and coerced prostitution. My city, Vancouver, is apparently a big hub for asian women. The documentary focuses more on women from Russia and Eastern Europe, iirc. I should mention that the Pink Box book purposely stayed away from this issue by focusing on consenting Japanese sex workers only.]

Thora Wrote:[edit: there's also a documentary called 'Sex Traffic' about international trafficking of women and coerced prostitution. My city, Vancouver, is apparently a big hub for asian women. The documentary focuses more on women from Russia and Eastern Europe, iirc. I should mention that the Pink Box book purposely stayed away from this issue by focusing on consenting Japanese sex workers only.]

Call me crazy but I don't have much sympathy to those who got themselves into such situation. The way I see it they just had it coming and life just works that way. You do a stupid thing and then you pay for your mistake, happens to everyone. Its just that some people do really stupid stuff and get kicked really hard.

I've known hundreds of women in my life and surprisingly none were kidnapped to work as a prostitute, they got lucky? No, they just didn't do drugs/hang out with known criminals/got in debt with other criminals/hook up with a random strangers/etc. If you act normally and aren't a complete idiot there is almost no chance of getting caught in such situation.

Besides its not like the scenario from "Taken" (enjoyable action flick btw) happens that often, there really aren't that many gullible girls around.

You really think people from the Second/Third World get into prostitution because they're "gullible" and "complete idiots" who "hook up with random strangers"?

Wow... just wow.

@thurd - It's not quite so cut and dry. ;p

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americ...ia/?hpt=C1 is just one example of a type of 'strategy', you'd be surprised at the stats and situations and locations if you Google for 'sex trafficking' or 'modern sex slave', maybe.

Sections from this point on in the article is what captured my interest (I was skimming it as an article about something I originally and wrongly thought was a somewhat distant and rare phenomenon).

"Claudia was 15 when she was forced to become a prostitute, but there are younger victims, as CdeBaca found out when he worked as a federal prosecutor at the U.S. Justice Department.

"I ended up seeing cases with girls as young as 13 and women in their 40s and everything in between," he said.

According to the International Labor Organization (ILO), the United Nations agency that monitors employment, standards, and social protection issues, there are about 12.3 million victims of human trafficking around the world.

The ILO also estimates that at least 1.39 million of those are victims of commercial sexual servitude in their own countries or abroad."

...

"In the Atlanta area, Amador Cortes-Meza, a 36-year-old Mexican national, was charged with involvement in a prostitution ring that victimized women and girls smuggled from Mexico.

Some were as young as 14.

Otto Jaime Larios-Perez, 27, who has admitted one count of providing false information, drove victims to several secret locations in the Atlanta area, forcing them to see multiple clients a day. "

Also, 'Taken' was based on a true story: http://www.theworldlink.com/news/local/a...3cb86.html - (Bill Hillar, except his daughter died rather than was saved.)

harhol Wrote:You really think people from the Second/Third World get into prostitution because they're "gullible" and "complete idiots" who "hook up with random strangers"?

Wow... just wow.

You forgot contacting mafia/gangs that usually do these kind of trafficking, wow all you want but getting in business with these people is just stupid. And to answer your question yes most of them, others just do it for the money so there really is no place for pity, its a career choice.
Despite what media wants you to believe billions of people still get by quite well in those "Third World" countries, so it is possible to have a decent life there if you're smart enough and make the right choices.

@nestor - that article is exactly what I'm talking about. If you try some shady business (illegal immigration is one, no matter what your agenda is) you have to be prepared for consequences.

Also take into account that journalism is hardly objective, they exaggerate, edit stories to make them more dramatic/heartbreaking or just outright lie.
If that article would point out that "Claudia" at age 15 was obnoxious, lazy and never listened to her mother about ditching that boyfriend of hers. That she left school to hang out with her friends, drink some tequila and dream about running away to the magical US. It would make it less heartbreaking/fear-mongering and thus less profitable.

Obviously I'm generalizing here and there are cases where it really was random chance that resulted in such situation but usually its not. What I don't understand is why such "victims" are portrayed like they are cattle that's incapable of making an independent thought, unable to take control of their lives and destined to fail from the beginning. Its naive at best.

Jeez, where's youz guyz sense of humor? Thurd was obviously joking when he typed that. Sheesh, no one is THAT dense. ねね？

*ponders for a moment*

ねぇぇ...　0_0

Thora Wrote:IceCream - I'll see if I can find that documentary. Amusing title. Thanks.

I rented it from Netflix. It was good, if ultimately depressing.

It looks like Netflix just launched in Canada (Sept 22). Good to know, thx. Unfortunately, that title isn't available here yet. I'll check again later.

Thurd, would you like to come by for a movie night? I have real beer (not that American stuff), popcorn and a few videos I'd like you to see... ;-)

thurd Wrote:Call me crazy but I don't have much sympathy to those who got themselves into such situation. The way I see it they just had it coming and life just works that way. You do a stupid thing and then you pay for your mistake, happens to everyone. Its just that some people do really stupid stuff and get kicked really hard.

I hope you find this article interesting: just-world fallacy.

Quote:The just-world phenomenon, also called the just-world theory, just-world fallacy, just-world effect, or just-world hypothesis, refers to the tendency for people to want to believe that the world has supernatural justice so when they witness an otherwise inexplicable injustice they will rationalize it by searching for things that the victim might have done to deserve it. This deflects their anxiety, and lets them continue to believe the world is a just place, but often at the expense of blaming victims for things that were not, objectively, their fault.

Quote:Another theory entails the need to protect one's own sense of invulnerability. This inspires people to believe that rape, for example, only happens to those who deserve or provoke the assault. This is a way of feeling safer. If the potential victim avoids the behaviors of the past victims then they themselves will remain safe and feel less vulnerable.

I'm sorry to break this to you, but this world isn't a just place and your blaming people for any bad thing that happens to them doesn't imply that thinking you're better than them makes you invulnerable to accidents, illnesses, or for this case, crimes.

Quote:I've known hundreds of women in my life and surprisingly none were kidnapped to work as a prostitute, they got lucky? No, they just didn't do drugs/hang out with known criminals/got in debt with other criminals/hook up with a random strangers/etc.

In other words, you say that you don't know a single person who has been involved in human traffic. Then, how do you know their circumstances so well?

Quote:If you act normally and aren't a complete idiot there is almost no chance of getting caught in such situation.

How do you know?

Are you sure you aren't just trying to protect your own sense of safety?

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/f...815zg.html
The trafficking scourge
Japan has tackled sex trafficking, but challenges remain

By STEVE SILVER

Urairat Soimee's journey began with an invitation from a wealthy neighbor -- her mother's childhood friend -- in her small Thai village to come and work at a restaurant she claimed she owned in Japan. It ended with her in a Japanese prison, serving a sentence for murder.

Like many poor and uneducated women from Thailand, Urairat came to Japan, moving to Yokkaichi, Mie Prefecture, nearly seven years ago in the hope of earning enough to provide for her children and disabled husband.

Instead, she was saddled with a large debt and told that she would have to prostitute herself -- or face serious injury, even death -- if she did not comply.

It was after months of horrific abuse that she solicited assistance from her Thai friend to help her escape -- an escape that led to the killing of her pimp and her conviction for murder.
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Thora Wrote:It looks like Netflix just launched in Canada (Sept 22). Good to know, thx. Unfortunately, that title isn't available here yet. I'll check again later.

Thurd, would you like to come by for a movie night? I have real beer (not that American stuff), popcorn and a few videos I'd like you to see... ;-)

I'd love to come but 8242km commute is a drag

Sebastian Wrote:I'm sorry to break this to you, but this world isn't a just place and your blaming people for any bad thing that happens to them doesn't imply that thinking you're better than them makes you invulnerable to accidents, illnesses, or for this case, crimes.

So when I figuratively said that life's a bitch I really meant just?

Sebastians article Wrote:at the expense of blaming victims for things that were not, objectively, their fault

I'm sorry to break this to you but how are you objective on this judgement and I'm not? You know any of those 12mln people? Know their stories and what they did to find themselves in this position? How do we objectively know that its not their fault? I know that a controversial subject clouds peoples judgement and flushes logic down the drain so let me give you another example:
You study all your life to get a job and provide for your family, your neighbor is too cool for school and ends in slump, working part time just to get the booze. Your local TV makes a touching documentary on him and his struggle with everyday life (insert some kids into the picture to make it more dramatic) but they omit the part that he got himself into this. Whose fault is it? Should I feel sorry for him?

Sebastian Wrote:In other words, you say that you don't know a single person who has been involved in human traffic. Then, how do you know their circumstances so well?

Because I met them and talked to them, its a few levels of intimacy higher then reading about them in papers....

Sebastian Wrote:

Quote:If you act normally and aren't a complete idiot there is almost no chance of getting caught in such situation.

How do you know?

Given that most of us here come from a normal background, with decent education levels all around I can assume we're capable of making sane choices in life (and by extension our acquaintances). I predict not a single person here will have one of their friends shipped to some other country. Will that be enough proof?

IceCream Wrote:Thurd:

It's important to seperate out sex trafficking from prostitution in general, really!!! The whole definition of sex trafficking involves doing prostitution or any other sex work against their own will.

I agree, might have blended those borders at some point. But prostitution for me is even less of an issue, legalize it and it will regulate itself.

As for those countries and their practices: I do agree that it happens, but its not all black & white in those cases. Except for Africa in most of them there is some sort of middle class living a decent life and life goes on normally, so there is a way out for them. They just don't take it.

IceCream Wrote:It turned out that it was a legitimate agency, and they were fine. But if that's the way a legimate agency works there, what hope is there for those girls who unfortunately pick the dodgy one?!?

In other cases, yknow, girls just plain get lied to. The trafficker will have spent time building up their trust first, if they're any good.

Your argument sounds like a good argument for rape becoming legalised too... "but it was her fault, she led me on...".

How did you get into Japan IceCream? Did you look for a dodgy labor agency that could lead to you working as a prostitute (they were aware of that risk, nobody is that thick) or did you find/look for other legitimate means of getting there and supporting yourself?

Case you described is exactly what I'm talking about, its was their choice all along, they knew the risk and decided to take it. Sorry but for me that is stupid, I wouldn't do that if I were them and I'm pretty sure you wouldn't too.

IceCream Wrote:But yeah, you can seperate out prostitution that is freely chosen, it's a completely different situation. Unfortunately, that line isn't always so clear, for example with refugees. It's not the case that everyone in developing countries can get along just fine, either. Have you ever been anywhere where people are living off less than a dollar a day? Some women just make a practical choice in that situation.

As for anyone else, i totally agree with Thora on this one... it's pretty disgusting that the same societies that provide the market demand for prostitution treat them with such disdain. If someone really does make that choice freely, so what? I don't think it necessarily means having no respect for yourself any more than selling your time, or your body for manual work...

I agree, it is a legitimate profession and should be treated as such. Social stigma will unfortunately stay as long as people will be ashamed of their bodies and sexuality.

Hey, sorry to go off topic here, but I remember I saw a two really good movies about prostitution. One movie was Korean the other was Japanese I think. I saw them both around 4am one lonely night cramming for exams so the only thing I remember was that one woman had a son she was caring for, and that they were both deeply moving.

any ideas?

@liosama

If the Korean movie was about a girl who thought she was going to be waitress and then was raped and made into a prostitute, It's called Downfall. I haven't seen many Japanese movies on prostitution.

THURD Wrote:example:
You study all your life to get a job and provide for your family, your neighbor is too cool for school and ends in slump, working part time just to get the booze. Your local TV makes a touching documentary on him and his struggle with everyday life (insert some kids into the picture to make it more dramatic) but they omit the part that he got himself into this. Whose fault is it? Should I feel sorry for him?

Realistic example: You're moderately intelligent. You grow up in an English speaking country. You've never been duped, lied to, or made a bad decision (okay not so realistic). You make an extremely over-generalized judgement about trafficked humans (trafficked meaning they didn't choose the life) because your position in life affords it. Another person around the world is 12 years old. Their parents sell them for 100 dollars to make ends meet. Their cousin (16) is told she can enter the US with help from guys who SEEM to be reputable. Their aunt (20) is told that she can have a job in Japan that should be able to help her support her family. Should we really be looking at "fault" here?

Many of these people are poor and relatively ignorant of these sort of scams. Your growing up the western world affords you the luxury of a nice home, education, paranoia, and over cautiousness. Of course there are people who GET THEMSELVES IN THESE SITUATIONS. But over half of the people being trafficked are UNDER 16. Even the most intelligent kids are naive at these ages. And the adults usually have less than a high school education. Where do you put fault on people who are less intelligent/privileged than you are?

But there are people with similar opportunities who end up these situations.

There is a human trafficking ring here in Florida. They specialize in abducting children. Yeah, thats right, SPECIALIZE. Once the kids get too old to be of interest, a lot of them end up dead. So, we're looking for fault? We could easily blame the parents. After all, children who grow up in certain environment are more susceptible to being abused. The groups even target children with certain backgrounds to make the job easier - you can tell a lot about a kid's family from the way he/she walks, talks, dresses, and even smells. And then there are those kids who are just begging to be taken. The kids come from well off families but the parent turns their back for just a second - and that's all it takes. We could blame the criminals. They are the leprechaun snatching up kids, right? We could blame society for allowing the conditions that lead to children being abducted with such precision.

But no amount of assigning fault will change that it happened. No amount of assigning fault will mean it doesn't happen to you or your kid. This is where I believe Sebastien was pointing to with the just-world fallacy.

Like Bob who ruined his life and got put on TV, Suzie the dildo, who is rebellious and too angry to listen to her parents, who runs off and ends up as a sex slave is all too convenient an example.

For one, she exhibits normal human behavior. so, when you say it's her fault for rebelling you're also saying it's her fault for being human. There are also factors affecting the decisions she's made. How old is she? Has she been abused? If so how often? Has she been in foster care? Is she currently in foster care? What is her home environment like? Does she have people in her life she can TRUST? Has this trust been betrayed? Does she have enough knowledge of life to know that things won't always be so bad?

If things are great at home... then the probably of Suzie the dildo ending up as a sex slave are vastly lower -unless she's in central Florida, a third world country, or some other area where people specialize in the trafficking of children, that is.

chamcham Wrote:*There were train clubs with all-you-can-grope commuting women. And fake hospitals, where the customer can lie in bed and get “treated” by a pantiless nurse. There were “Sexual Harassment” offices where men can tear the pantyhose off their “secretaries.”

*every club has a website. And you can even print out coupons (30% off your first panty ripping session!).

Rule 34 of the Internet

Let's not all jump on Thurd while pointing and shouting "just-world theorist, just-world theorist!" I don't think he said that victims of sex trafficking are entirely at fault anywhere in his posts. He has merely suggested that it's foolish to say that most sex trafficking victims are entirely blameless for their circumstances. This seems hardly controversial.

I have some knowledge on this matter since my mom immigrated to the U.S. from the Philippines through a work agency. Likewise, my aunt's family is currently working in Dubai through another work agency in the Philippines. Now, so far, a few posts have mentioned the supposed ignorance, lack of opportunities, and other patronizing reasons for why sex trafficking occurs in poor countries. The truth is, most people are well aware of all of the scams (not just sex trafficking) that come with work agencies that ship people off to foreign countries. They're not tricked by the work offers, they're tricked by the sly people making those offers. Victims usually have some kind of romantic or familial relation with the traffickers, and unfortunately they let their emotions get in the way of good sense.

Now, I know this will sound cold and heartless to those who sympathize with victims of work agency scams, but I think Thurd is fair when he says that there's an element of stupidity involved on the victims' behalf. Any reputable work agency will provide plenty of opportunities to verify the legitimacy of the work they're assigning, especially since work agency scams are commonplace. Obviously, it's still wrong that these scams are taking place and measures should be taken to prevent them, but that doesn't mean we can't say that the victims made poor decisions.

And, yes, Thurd is at least partially correct when he says that many people in bad situations have some degree of responsibility for their circumstances. My mom and my aunt worked hard to pull themselves out of poverty. They grew up without electricity and running water in a town of a few hundred people in the jungles of the Philippines, but they studied hard and received scholarships in order to be admitted to universities. On the other hand, many of my other relatives have done absolutely nothing to improve their situation. Even though they have my mom and aunt as both examples and resources, they're unwilling to take the necessary steps to improve their standards of living. Many times this is simply because they're content with the way their lives are or they're not willing to put in the effort needed to make a change for the better (my mom always says, "They're waiting for the man to come down from heaven and save them"). For example, my uncle has been playing mahjong, entering cock-fighting tournaments, and peddling random trinkets and household items in order to make ends meet for the last 30 or so odd years. My mom even financed his education for a while, but he gave up. It's difficult to say that someone is not responsible for their circumstances in cases like this. The reality is that people like my uncle can be found all over the Philippines, and I'm willing to place bets that same goes for other impoverished nations as well.

Anyway, please refrain from assuming knowledge of the circumstances of those in impoverished nations. It's patronizing and reeks of imperialistic, paternal motives. Yes, there are definitely barriers preventing them from enjoying a higher standard of living, but to speak from a position of authority from your keyboard is just insulting to these people and their communities.

I think these generalizations are pointless.

There's a whole range of circumstances, both within and beyond a person's control, that combine to create an individual's situation at a given time. Unless you're talking about a particular individual and their known circumstances, you're in the realm of pure speculation, which is hardly a defensible position.

And even if the circumstances of one or more individuals are known, you still can't legitimately generalize to include all individuals in that particular class, unless that class is very small and/or very narrow.

Personally, I'm pro-Personal Responsibility and anti-Cult of the Victim. But I also recognize that there are people who just don't have the tools needed to make good personal choices, and people who are legitimate victims. That's why generalizations seem so pointless to me.

vileru Wrote:Anyway, please refrain from assuming knowledge of the circumstances of those in impoverished nations. It's patronizing and reeks of imperialistic, paternal motives. Yes, there are definitely barriers preventing them from enjoying a higher standard of living, but to speak from a position of authority from your keyboard is just insulting to these people and their communities.

1 - My moms comes from a similar situation, does that mean my authoritativeness is now as valid as/less insulting than your own?

2 - I'm countering one extreme example with another.

3 - We're not JUST talking about stupid ADULTS, are we?

Quote:I don't think he said that victims of sex trafficking are entirely at fault anywhere in his posts.

He hasn't said it. He has left it to be implied, though. Much the same way, the people countering have left much to be implied, and yet none have said "this is entirely how it is." Thurd has made many good point. Others have made many good points. Funny how discussions work, no?

I believe we can all agree that understanding the why and taking measures to prevent it from happening are more important than which perspective is more valid... or can we? o.0

kazelee Wrote:1 - My moms comes from a similar situation, does that mean my authoritativeness is now as valid as/less insulting than your own?

2 - I'm countering one extreme example with another.

3 - We're not JUST talking about stupid ADULTS, are we?

I would say "yes, it would make your post more valid and less offensive" but only if your post had referred to your mom's experience. Instead, your counterexample was based on assumptions that impoverished victims are mostly ignorant and completely helpless. The whole point that I'm trying to make is along the same lines as Anna B's: making blanket statements about others' circumstances is almost purely speculative and relies on your prejudices and biases more than actual evidence (i.e. real experience).

The part about children is definitely relevant, but not so much in the sense that they lack the ability to make good decisions. Just like how most kids in developed countries know not to take candy from strangers, the same applies for kids trying to find work overseas. Of course, they may be seeking the work out of desperation or emotional conflict, but they most likely know the risks involved. I wouldn't hesitate to place full responsibility on the predatory agencies, but I still recognize that most kids aren't completely unaware of what's going on. To do otherwise would just perpetuate the myth of innocence that so many are fond of.

kazelee Wrote:He hasn't said it. He has left it to be implied, though. Much the same way, the people countering have left much to be implied, and yet none have said "this is entirely how it is." Thurd has made many good point. Others have made many good points. Funny how discussions work, no?

No one even recognized that Thurd made some insightful comments, though. From what I read, the replies to him were entirely polemical.

IceCream Wrote:Vileru:
please don't assume that i'm saying that we should look at all people in developing countries with pity.

Maybe my writing was misleading, so let me clarify. My main message in my post was that it's wrong to make assumptions about the circumstances impoverished people are dealing with. Attributing qualities such as ignorance, helplessness, and lack of education without any actual evidence to support your claims screams of incredulity. Whenever I see this happen, alarms go off in my head warning that someone is about to list off sentimental notions of what they feel like life in poverty must be like. This is counterproductive to helping these people because any further ideas will be based upon false assumptions about what kinds of problems these people are facing.

IceCream Wrote:You said yourself that members of your family are comfortable with their lifestyle. Not everyone shares the same dreams, why should they? But, if someone is comfortable with their lifestyle, there's no real need for aportioning blame either. THATS patronising.

Where did I apportion blame? I introduced the example in order to show that it's patronizing to assume that poor people are helpless victims.

Anyway, when it comes to assigning blame, I hope I've made it clear that most of it rests on the shoulders on the exploitative agencies. The victims haven't exploited anyone in any way, but the agencies certainly have. However, that doesn't change the fact that in most cases the person probably made a bad decision.

To make your two examples more analogous, let's say that the computer guy asks a regular he knows in the cafe to keep an eye on his mac. This is more similar to the example of the victimized worker because it adds the element of trust. The victimized worker trusts the word of someone she knows, so it seems fair for the computer guy to trust someone he knows as well. Would you still say the computer guy made a bad decision? I would say so. It's not that inconvenient for him to pack up his Mac and take it to the restroom. Likewise, it's not that inconvenient for the worker to look into the agency that she only knows through a single referral. It doesn't seem all that controversial to say such a person made a poor decision. I'm not sure about Thurd's stance, but I think it's perfectly compatible to say that the victim made a bad choice while helping her out and punishing her exploiters at the same time.

Sorry for 空気読めない, but girls and guys? You people are learning Japanese, and it seems that none of you has cast any doubt on the notion "Japan's sex industry is the 2nd largest industry in Japan"?

As I understand it, Japanese sex industry is something like ３兆円, less than 1% of the GDP. I mean, come on. How can the sex industry so big? Do you actually believe that Japanese people are spending more money on male and female prostitutes than they do on food? All of them? Men and women? The old and young?

It's ridiculous that somebody claims the sex industry is the 2nd largest industry in Japan, don't you think?

It seems to me that there is a consensus that Japan is a morally corrupted country and it is no wonder that the sex industry is its 2nd largest industry, while in reality it is something like 200th.

And I don't think it is fair to bring up the cases of kidnappings of 13 year olds as that virtually never happens in Japan. I agree that these Yakuzas who do the trafficking should be put in the prison, but most of these girls are criminals themselves and should be punished and deported as well (although I believe these pimps should be given heavier punishment, and there are exceptions).

That said, the author's anecdotal accounts concur with what I have heard from Japanese sources, and it sounds interesting enough I want to see the book.

@masaman

They're apparently referring to the work of Takashi Kadokura on underground economies in Japan, who has been in articles and books and such since the late '90s stating the size of the sex industry in Japan. From a Asian Sentinel article, "The introduction by James Farrer cites economist Takashi Kadokura who said, "The commercial sex services sector in Japan accounted for 2.37 trillion Yen, or about USD $20 billion."

You can probably find this information in Japanese better; assuming the information is correct, I don't think 2.37 trillion yen makes it the second largest industry in Japan, though I've no idea what Japan's economy is like.

@Others

As Anna B said, sounds like a lot of generalizations (from one side, the other side seemed off the bat to explain a granular overview). For me, initial unconscionably callous statements pretty much ruined any chance that I'd invest the effort to disentangle some kind of insights buried in later blocks of text. If it's some kind of 'educate the victims' point from Thurd and vileru or whomever, I think people dealing with sex trafficking already have that in mind, sans 'complete idiots' 'that's how life works' 'don't have much sympathy', 'had it coming', etc. ^_^

I have tendency to oversimplify in posts, hoping that the main point of it will be understood. That doesn't seem to be happening so.... let me break it down for you.

vileru Wrote:I would say "yes, it would make your post more valid and less offensive" but only if your post had referred to your mom's experience. Instead, your counterexample was based on assumptions that impoverished victims are mostly ignorant and completely helpless.

The answer to that question is no, actually. It was "partially" sarcastic. As I said before the counterexample was just that - a counter (to an exaggerated example). Not the absolute truth.

"Like Bob who ruined his life and got put on TV, Suzie the dildo, who is rebellious and too angry to listen to her parents, who runs off and ends up as a sex slave is all too convenient an example."

Much like the "counter-argument" I proposed. It's only purpose was to show that an extreme example exist from both (or any) perspective.

Quote:The whole point that I'm trying to make is along the same lines as Anna B's: making blanket statements about others' circumstances is almost purely speculative and relies on your prejudices and biases more than actual evidence (i.e. real experience).

That's a given. I thought my addressing "Suzie the dildo's" circumstances implied this enough.

Quote:I wouldn't hesitate to place full responsibility on the predatory agencies, but I still recognize that most kids aren't completely unaware of what's going on. To do otherwise would just perpetuate the myth of innocence that so many are fond of.

While it's true that many individual below the age of 16 a fairly competent, this is not true for all. To believe so would put children in circumstances they are incapable of understanding. See!? I just reversed what you said there. I could use the little experience I have teaching as evidence, but that would only be evidence from my single perspective.

Quote:

kazelee Wrote:He hasn't said it. He has left it to be implied, though. Much the same way, the people countering have left much to be implied, and yet none have said "this is entirely how it is." Thurd has made many good point. Others have made many good points. Funny how discussions work, no?

No one even recognized that Thurd made some insightful comments, though. From what I read, the replies to him were entirely polemical.

Yes, no one said he made "insightful" points. They only briefly referenced them, and then posed counter arguments. If his points were insightful, the topic would have taken a totally different direction. Especially when you consider the number of posts THROWN at him.

Good != insightful

Quote:Attributing qualities such as ignorance, helplessness, and lack of education without any actual evidence to support your claims screams of incredulity. Whenever I see this happen, alarms go off in my head warning that someone is about to list off sentimental notions of what they feel like life in poverty must be like.

And surely others have flags that go off when an individual starts assigning blame on circumstances they know little about as well? You are assuming the position of authority while attempting to discredit the authority others when one's mother's single experience does not make one an authority.

Quote:

IceCream Wrote:You said yourself that members of your family are comfortable with their lifestyle. Not everyone shares the same dreams, why should they? But, if someone is comfortable with their lifestyle, there's no real need for aportioning blame either. THATS patronising.

Where did I apportion blame? I introduced the example in order to show that it's patronizing to assume that poor people are helpless victims.

Thurd is apportioning blame (or is he), and you agree with the apportioning of blame, "at least partially."

Quote:However, that doesn't change the fact that in most cases the person probably made a bad decision.

Aren't we generalizing here, yet again?

Quote:To make your two examples more analogous...

Re-writing the example to fit your more authoritative version of the truth when in reality both version hold equal weight.

Though, IceCream's counter to your example is actually kinda... insightful 0.0

She has weird spelling, though.

*bows to IceCream先生*

My authority comes from a higher authority, btw.

nest0r Wrote:@masaman

They're apparently referring to the work of Takashi Kadokura on underground economies in Japan, who has been in articles and books and such since the late '90s stating the size of the sex industry in Japan. From a Asian Sentinel article, "The introduction by James Farrer cites economist Takashi Kadokura who said, "The commercial sex services sector in Japan accounted for 2.37 trillion Yen, or about USD $20 billion."

You can probably find this information in Japanese better; I don't think 2.37 trillion yen makes it the largest industry in Japan, though.

@nest0r
I'm still working on your humongous post on the other thread! I have a lot to say about that too but haven't even finished reading it. Anyway, I don't really feel like arguing on how big the sex industry in Japan is, but yeah, $20 billion US is less than 1% of Japanese GDP so I don't know where the notion "the 2nd largest industry" came from... I mean, how pervert Japanese need to be for that to be true. I have no problem if it is, but it's just not at all realistic and as nobody had pointed it out, I saw the chance to say something unique. hehe.

Yeah it's weird, if you Google for 'x largest industry' in Japan (with the '-sex' to omit Pink Box-related hits) you'll turn up all sorts of uses of the phrase 'largest industry', such as:

"The animation industry's annual income has reached 230 trillion yen, making it the third largest industry of Japan. The general animation industry has attributed to more than ten percents of Japan's GDP."

At the least, however they mean 'largest industry', the top 'industries' all seem to be measured in the tens of trillions (or hundreds of trillions, apparently).