Test 5 (59-74), pp.45-47.

I got a disappointing 63% on this test. This was mostly down to getting only 4/10 on question two. Questions below.

1(1) - Why is the answer さえ and not しか? Couldn't you say "if you only drink water..."?

1(4) - Why is the answer 通して and not わたって? Don't both mean through/spanning?

2(4), 2(5) and 2(10) - ばかりでなく , もとより , 加えて - couldn't these be interchangeable in these three questions?

stevesayskanpai Wrote:1(1) - Why is the answer さえ and not しか? Couldn't you say "if you only drink water..."?

しか always goes with a negative predicate (eg 水しか飲まない drink nothing but water). Also it emphasises the 'nothing but' sort of meaning, it's not a neutral "only" like だけ, so it doesn't fit the meaning here.

Quote:1(4) - Why is the answer 通して and not わたって? Don't both mean through/spanning?

The grammar point in KM is にわたって, not をわたって. I think that with を you're limited to the straightforward physical meanings like 橋を渡る.

1(1) さえ, is different. As opposed to "only" or "just," it's almost like "at least," or "not even"
水さえ飲めれば、生きられる。If you AT LEAST can drink water, you can live.
忙しくて、寝る時間さえない。I'm so busy, I DON'T EVEN have time to sleep.
So, さえ is almost like a "minimum requirement/expectation" thing, whereas しか〜ない is basically just like だけ


2(4), 2(5), and 2(10), One of the biggest things you can see is form and syntax. 〜ばかりではなく、はもとより、に加えて
But of course there are meaning differences as well

2(4)〜ばかりではなく, is basically ~だけじゃなくて, so "Not just in our country..."

2(5)もとより, pretty much like もちろん, or "of course," "as we already know."
So it's kind of like "Tofu is popular as a healthy food item, of course in Japan, but also in America and Europe." Not sure the best way to translate it, but it's getting the fact across that "we already know Japan considers it a healthy food," as opposed to the "Not just in Japan, but in all these other countries as well" that ばかりではなく would be.

2(10)〜加えて, "In addition to," so perhaps the thing before に加えて would be 'expected' or 'standard' requirements.
"In addition (on top of) to specialized knowledge (which is kind of a standard), language skills are also required for this job." Don't mix it up with もとより, which is basically just "this is common knowledge," this one adds more of a "in addition to this, which is normal" or "on top of this already expected thing, ~"

edit: pm got some stuff before me, so i deleted a bit

stevesayskanpai Wrote:2(4), 2(5) and 2(10) - ばかりでなく , もとより , 加えて - couldn't these be interchangeable in these three questions?

The forms of the grammar limit your options here. もとより works in forms like Xはもとより, but 2(4) has no particle after 我が国 and 2(10) has a に. 加えて is Nに加えて so doesn't fit in 2(4) or 2(5). ばかりでなく is Nばかりでなく or some Adj or V in its noun-modifying-form + ばかりでなく, so it can't go in 2(5) or 2(10).

You definitely need to make sure you remember the actual grammar forms, required particles and so on, as well as the general meaning of the grammar points...

(and I see Asriel has leapfrogged me with an answer on these ones :-))

Test 6 (75-96), pp.56-8

Got a disappointing 53% on this test, mainly due to not knowing the difference between a number of similar looking grammar points. This has been one of the hardest parts of the book so far, with からといって、からいえば、というと、というより、といったら、ことに、ことから、and other points that I seem to constantly get mixed up. On the plus side I seem to understand why I got most of them wrong- question 2 was the most difficult, luckily the JLPT doesn't have any questions like this!

Anyway, I have a couple of questions.

3(3), Why is the answer ようになる　and not ことになる (i.e. a not c)

3(7), Why is the answer d and not c? Surely c makes sense as ところ is 'immediately'?

3(9), Doesn't both b) and d) make sense here. 'Since...I received 2 letters'?

SSK

stevesayskanpai Wrote:3(3), Why is the answer ようになる　and not ことになる (i.e. a not c)

インターネットが発達すればするほど世界が狭く感じられる (ようになる | ことになっている)

The DBJG explanation of ことになる is that it's "used when some decision or arrangement is made by some unspecified agent". ことになっている "indicates that some decision took place at some point in the past and that the result of that decision is still in effect". ようになる is just a simple "become that way".

In particular since this is a すればするほど construction the bit after the ほど has to be something that can happen to a greater or lesser degree, and ことになっている doesn't work like that.

Quote:3(7), Why is the answer d and not c? Surely c makes sense as ところ is 'immediately'?

作文コンクールに応募してみたところ、 (書けるかどうか心配でした | 見事、一等賞になりました).

In Vinf.past+ところ (which means something like "when"; "immediately" is a bit off, I think) the following bit is saying what the results of the first action were. Being worried isn't really a result in that way. (I'm having difficulty explaining this one, because my initial response is that the first answer feels definitely all wrong, but it's a bit hard to say why...)

PS: don't confuse this grammar point with the ご飯を食べ終わったところにまり子がたずねて来た kind of ところ where it means "when I'd just finished doing X" (and has しているところ and するところ cousins).

Quote:3(9), Doesn't both b) and d) make sense here. 'Since...I received 2 letters'?

彼女には10年前に会ったきり、 (手紙を2通もらいました | その後手紙もまらっていません)

Nope. This sort of V.inf.past+きり is an "ever since" kind of meaning: ever since something happened, nothing has happened and it's been the same way. "Ever since he left Japan, he's never once eaten sushi." I see KM's examples for this (which is its meaning B) are particularly minimalist here since they include a bunch of the weird cases but not the straightforward one demonstrated by the above test question. Some quick notes on きり oddities:
寝たきり老人 -- here 寝たきり is actually in EDICT as its own entry, meaning "bedridden" (basically from the meaning of going to bed and never getting up again)
In sentences like アメリカヘ行ったきりだ。the thing that's been true ever since is left implied ("and we've never heard from him since; and he's never come back".)
二人きり is very common, meaning "two people together alone"

3(3), ようになる expresses that something "comes to be" as opposed to "becomes". Note: often used with potential verbs, but not always.
大人になってから、トマトを食べられるようになった。'After becoming an adult, I became able to eat tomatoes' (used with the potential)
宿題を夜にするようになった。'I started (got into the habit of) doing my homework at night'

Contrasted with:
トマトを食べられることになった。I'm not even sure how this could make sense.
バイトあるから、宿題を夜にすることになった。'Because I have work, I started doing my homework at night.' It's similar, but there is more of an "event" as opposed to a "progress" into doing homework at night. In this example, because getting the job is an 'event,' perhaps こと is better than よう...but I'd say よう implies that there was some 'adjusting time' involved, whereas こと is just 'from this day on' kind of deal.

[edit = yeah, I think pm215 did better than me, but this is kind of how i feel about it.
I'm not sure if a transition is necessary or not, i just kind of feel thats how i've seen it used.
Also, for 'unspecified agent' in ことになる, I guess that would be the job as the 'agent' ]

3(7) They have the meaning is 〜たら, which I guess you took to mean 'immediately,' but the thing that happens in the 2nd half has to happen after the thing in the first.
We could think of it like '(After I) signed up(applied for...応募) for the writing contest, (after) I was worried about whether I could write it or not.'
How can you be worried if you can write something, if you've already done it?
Sure, you can worry about if you'll win or not, but the paper is already written at the time of turning it into the competition people.


3(9) [edit = i was kind of wrong with this]

Thanks for your replies. I think I get it. The two forms of ところ certainly need to be straightened out a bit in my mind.

Once I finish Kanzen I might go through and 're-order' my notes, to put all the ところ、上 etc grammar points next to each other! Easy to get them confused.

Still, onwards ever onwards.

Cheers.

stevesayskanpai Wrote:Thanks for your replies. I think I get it. The two forms of ところ certainly need to be straightened out a bit in my mind.

The distinction of form is that this new one is always Vpast+ところ then some new clause. The other one is either ところ followed by a particle (eg ni, wo) or by da/desu and end of sentence. (ie in the latter case ところ is acting syntactically like a noun; in the former it isn't.)

Test 7 (97-115), pp.66-8

I got 66.6% on this one, quite pleasing considering I've been finding the grammar points harder to absorb. Questions below! よろしくお願いします！

1(2) - Why is this べきだ and not わけだ. Could it not be "expected result that" instead of "should"?

1(5) - Why is this かのように and not ことから. I thought it would be 'because of this', not 'in this way'?

1(8)- Why わけではない and not どころではない?

2(3)- I did well on question 2 (9/10), but I don't understand the meaning of number 3 - 夏は暑い。。。しまう。 "Summer is expected to be hot but people are immediately saying its hot"!?

3(7)- Why is it あいさつぐらいする and not just あいさつぐらい?

Thanks once again for help and assistance. My scores aren't increasing really, but I'm more or less maintaining over 60% which is something I guess.

stevesayskanpai Wrote:1(2) - Why is this べきだ and not わけだ. Could it not be "expected result that" instead of "should"?

親は遠く離れている子供のことを心配しているのだから、忙しくても、月に1回ぐらいは連絡する(___)。
I think べきだ is definitely the best choice but I can't really articulate why わけだ doesn't work. Maybe somebody else can do better...

Quote:1(5) - Why is this かのように and not ことから. I thought it would be 'because of this', not 'in this way'?

桜の花が散って、雪でも降ったかのように、一面真っ白になっていた。

かのように doesn't mean "in this way", it means "as if". 雪でも降ったかのように : as if it had snowed. Note that the でも is working together with the かのように . I think ことから sounds kind of weird, but mostly "as if" is just the most obvious choice, because sakura and snow at the same time is pretty unlikely.

Quote:1(8)- Why わけではない and not どころではない?

というわけではない is a pretty common phrase ("it's not that I don't like the job, but"). Vどころではない means "V is impossible, out of the question, this is no time for V, no way I can V". That meaning just doesn't really fit in the sentence (if you start off with "this is no time to say 'I don't like the job'" you can't end with "so I turned it down".)

Quote:2(3)- I did well on question 2 (9/10), but I don't understand the meaning of number 3 - 夏は暑い。。。しまう。 "Summer is expected to be hot but people are immediately saying its hot"!?

夏は暑いにきまっているけど、つい「暑い、暑い」といってしまう。 -- of course summer's hot but I still find myself complaining "it's too hot, it's too hot".

Quote:3(7)- Why is it あいさつぐらいする and not just あいさつぐらい?

You've got the ぐらい and する the wrong way round there:
わたしと彼の関係は、会えば (あいさつする) ぐらいのものです。
The する is necessary because the bit modifying ぐらい is 会えばあいさつする (if we meet we exchange greetings). 会えばあいさつ is a fragment, it's not a noun phrase because you can't modify a noun with 会えば like that and it's not a verb phrase because it's missing the する. So it doesn't work grammatically.

Thanks for your help as always. The last sentence is different to what you quote however - it is 人に会ったら、＿＿＿ものです. The possible answers are (a)　あいさつぐらいする (b) あいさつしない © あいさつぐらい and (d) あいさつぐらいの, at least in my version anyway (p.68)

stevesayskanpai Wrote:Thanks for your help as always. The last sentence is different to what you quote however - it is 人に会ったら、＿＿＿ものです. The possible answers are (a)　あいさつぐらいする (b) あいさつしない © あいさつぐらい and (d) あいさつぐらいの, at least in my version anyway (p.68)

Interesting. Mine is the 14th printing, dated 2004-03-30 (this information is on a page in the back just after the index).

Interesting indeed. Mine is the 21st printing, dated 2008-10-30. Anyway, the use of する does make sense as when you meet people あいさつ is something you should DO, i.e. verb form rather than noun.

Next test to follow soon!

Big Test 2 (pp.69-71)

I got a solid 76 on this test.

1(1) – I really don’t understand ほどhere – how would translate it? “as something happens, something else does”?

1(5) – I thought this was either に沿って or に応じて, and it turns out to be 一方で! Is this only because they are positive/negative statements respectively?

1(10) まいか means won’t, ものか means absolutely will not. Surely both are applicable here?

3(3) Can anyone explain why this is C and not A? The two meanings of といえば are “representative mono” and “associated / remembered stuff” right? The sentence is the former, and both A and C seem to fit this meaning.

3(5) I answered B, but the answer here is A. The three meanings of かぎり seem to be “while”, “as far as (scope)”, and “as far as (limit)”. I thought the sentence and B were both the second meaning, but I was wrong. Can anyway explain the four sentences in this question to me, I don’t get it at all.

As always, much appreciated! SSK

You might consider including the question sentences so that others can learn from this thread and people without the book can try to help as well.

Thora Wrote:You might consider including the question sentences so that others can learn from this thread and people without the book can try to help as well.

This is actually a really good idea. I 2nd this notion.


1(1) – I think this is gonna be similar to ば〜するほど〜 where it's like "the more ---, the more --" where it would be "the bigger a person is, the less power they have," except it's a different construct.
Like... 〜ば〜するほど is like "the more you do this, the more this happens"
This is kind of like "the more of this situation, the more of this situation"
Where it's kind of more "set." The guy is already big, and he's not changing, but if he were to, his power would probably change too.
I'm not completely sure, but this is just the sense I get.

1(10)　The か here is marking a rhetorical question, meaning the opposite of the phrase that precedes it.
行くまいか -> "Will I not go?" (I will go)
行くものか -> "Is this something I'd go to?" (I won't go)
That's how it works in my head. YMMV

3(3) Example: "If you're speaking of famous German composers; you could say Beethoven"
A. "You think that just because you say 'sorry,' you're gonna be forgiven??"
B. "Speaking of the internet, apparently there's some schools where they use computers in grade school these days."
C. "If you're speaking of Japanese cooking; whatever you say, it's definitely sushi"
D. "Speaking of baseball, who won the game today?"
My translations suck, but I kept them in the same form to match a general meaning.

3(5) "... things'll be OK as long as we don't add harm ..."
a. "As long as you don't practice, you won't get good" (while?)
b. "I dont know if I'll be of any use, but let me do as much as I can" (limit)
c. "From what I saw, the person seemed 元気" (scope?)
d. "From what I know (from what I looked into), I don't know his phone number" (scope?)
I'm not really sure which one fits into which one of your definitions or thought processes, so check and see if it makes sense. But from what I gather (私の知っているかぎり...) thats how the sentences should play out.

stevesayskanpai Wrote:1(1) – I really don’t understand ほどhere – how would translate it? “as something happens, something else does”?

Have we got a different sentence here again? My version has
あの人は体が大きい( )、力は全然ない。 (あまり、ばかりに、くせに、ほど)
and the answer in the back is くせに which is exactly what I'd expect.

Quote:1(5) – I thought this was either に沿って or に応じて, and it turns out to be 一方で! Is this only because they are positive/negative statements respectively?

工業化が進む( )、大気汚染も進んでいる。(一方で、に応じて、にそって、に基づいて)
You can answer this one straightforwardly based on grammatical forms -- only 一方で allows verb+一方で; the other three are all noun+にwhatever.

Quote:1(10) まいか means won’t, ものか means absolutely will not. Surely both are applicable here?

Asriel is right, I think. ~ものか gets its' "will not" force from being a rhetorical question. まい on its own means "won't" already, so if you add か you're basically diluting it with the questioning, and I think ~まいか is more likely to sound like the ~ないだろう meaning of まい than the negative-volition one as a result.

Quote:3(3) Can anyone explain why this is C and not A? The two meanings of といえば are “representative mono” and “associated / remembered stuff” right? The sentence is the former, and both A and C seem to fit this meaning.

There's a third option, which is "this is just the verb いう in the ば conditional form with no special meaning beyond that". A is in that category.

Quote:3(5) I answered B, but the answer here is A. The three meanings of かぎり seem to be “while”, “as far as (scope)”, and “as far as (limit)”. I thought the sentence and B were both the second meaning, but I was wrong. Can anyway explain the four sentences in this question to me, I don’t get it at all.

I agree with Asriel again. The example and A are both the "as long as/provided/while" meaning. B is "as much as possible, up to the limit". C and D are the "limited to <scope>" meaning.

PS: I agree with Asriel and Thora that it would be better if you typed out the question sentences rather than me doing it :-)

Yep, sounds good - I'll type out the questions in full from now on! ^^ As for your answers, 1(1) is meant to be 1(2) (my bad). ほど is the answer - I can understand this from process of elimination, but don't understand it on its own.

1(5) - Yeah I really really need to start paying more attention to forms! I should memorise such に沿って points as " N に沿って" really.

1(10), 3(3), 3(5) - Good points well made, I understand now.

Cheers Asriel and PM215

stevesayskanpai Wrote:1(1) is meant to be 1(2) (my bad). ほど is the answer - I can understand this from process of elimination, but don't understand it on its own.

山は上へ行くほど、気温が下がる。
This is the ほど which the DIJG defines as "a particle which indicates the extent or degree to which s.o/s.t does s.t. or is in some state". 駅に近くなるほど家賃が高くなる -- the closer to the station, the higher the rent. 私は静かなほど落ち着かない -- the quieter it is , the more uneasy I feel. It's basically the same meaning as ~ば~ほど, just a different form.

Oh wow, I didn't even check to make sure the answer for 1(1) was correct or not. I definitely had a hard time wrapping my head around the logic to find away to have it make sense in my mind. I thought it was like a videogame character, so the bigger he gets, the lower his speed (and in effect, his power) goes down!

Makes much more sense now haha!

Test 8 - pp. 80-82

Oh dear, I did pretty poorly on this one. A bit worrying really!

First of all, can anyone explain Grammar Point 132 [-をーとして] to me? I can't find a good English translation of it.

1(8)- 一人暮らし＿＿＿、寂しいとはいえない (からすると、だからこそ、だけあって、だからといって」, I was fairly sure this was C i.e.just because he lives alone it is not the case he is lonely. Apparently it is D - I have no idea why.

2/1 - Hmm not sure where to start with 2/1 as I got ALL 5 wrong!

2/2 - Got three of the five wrong here too, 2, 4 and 5 - although I kind of see why.

3/3 - コンピューターの知識にかけては＿＿＿。Is this b) 彼は自信があるらしい because かけて is always used with a positive statement? I chose a) 彼はこれから勉強するつもりらしい。

3/4 - Ａ社は大企業だけに＿＿＿。I chose d) 給料が高いとは限らない, which I thought made sense, but the answer is d) 社員の福利厚生がしっかりしている. Is it because you can't combine だけに and 限らない like this?

stevesayskanpai Wrote:1(8)- 一人暮らし＿＿＿、寂しいとはいえない (からすると、だからこそ、だけあって、だからといって」, I was fairly sure this was C i.e.just because he lives alone it is not the case he is lonely. Apparently it is D - I have no idea why.

Xだからといって Yとはいえない is a structure that means "just because X doesn't mean Y", or "it may be X but that doesn't necessarily mean Y" (where Y is generally something that is often or stereotypically associated with X). So here we have "just because I'm living alone doesn't mean I'm lonely".
XだけあってY is different, it means "Y, which is just what you'd expect from X". (Compare
さすが.) Maybe you just got them mixed up -- your translation would be right for D but is wrong for C...

stevesayskanpai Wrote:3/3 - コンピューターの知識にかけては＿＿＿。Is this b) 彼は自信があるらしい because かけて is always used with a positive statement? I chose a) 彼はこれから勉強するつもりらしい。

(I had to look this one up :-)) Yes. More specifically, JAJG says にかけては "marks something in which s.o. excels or has confidence". a and c don't match that. d doesn't match that because the subject of the sentence (the speaker) doesn't excel at the thing (he has to rely on somebody else).

Quote:3/4 - Ａ社は大企業だけに＿＿＿。I chose d) 給料が高いとは限らない, which I thought made sense, but the answer is b) 社員の福利厚生がしっかりしている. Is it because you can't combine だけに and 限らない like this?

[corrected your typo in the labelling of the right answer.]
だけに means "as you would expect", "so naturally". The only answer that goes with that sort of meaning is b). The other three would all require a conjunction meaning something like "even though", "just because", "but".

stevesayskanpai Wrote:First of all, can anyone explain Grammar Point 132 [-をーとして] to me? I can't find a good English translation of it.

XをYとして "with X as the Y".
チンさんを先生として、中国語の勉強会を開いた。 I held a Chinese study group with Mr Chin as the teacher.
同窓会は卒業生の交流を目的とする集まりです。 An alumni meeting is a gathering with networking between graduates as its purpose. [you could rephrase that as more natural English, obviously.]