Thanks as always pm215!

Xだからといって Yとはいえない - strange this is the answer, but is not covered as a grammar point in the book.

Everything else is brilliant though - I appreciate your help a lot dude. Four tests left - and then lots of JLPT revision papers!

Test 9 (133-154). 60% on this one - still not good enough really, but I'm hoping once I've finished the book and focus on practice questions completely, as well as past papers, this score will go up. Couple of questions only:

1.10 - 残念＿＿＿もう受け付けは締め切りました。I chose ものの, the answer was ながら. The reason I assume is because of the form of 残念 - it would have to be 残念な for ものの, right? Otherwise these two points have the same meaning だろ。

2.2 - I chose ものの, "although it was raining", but it is にもかからわず. Again this is a conjugation mistake, right? That ものの cannot take nouns.

Only 3 more tests to do - and they will come all together at the end of the book, in about a week.

stevesayskanpai Wrote:1.10 - 残念＿＿＿もう受け付けは締め切りました。I chose ものの, the answer was ながら. The reason I assume is because of the form of 残念 - it would have to be 残念な for ものの, right? Otherwise these two points have the same meaning だろ。

残念ながら is a set phrase so these are the kinds of grammar questions you cross your fingers for on the test. So common that as soon as I saw 残念, I knew it would be ながら without having to read the rest of the sentence.

With ものの, the second part must be unexpected given the information in the first part: 「習いはしたものの、すっかり忘れてしまった」 "Although I learned it, I completely forgot." 残念 gives us no information, so ものの cannot be used here.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that 残念 "gives us no information". ものの can be used after nouns and na-adjectives that way. The problem, as Steve correctly points out, is that ものの does not come after the stem, whereas ながら does. 残念なものの ("although it is regrettable") would be fine. The unexpected information requirement is only relevant when ものの isn't modifying a noun or na-adjective. See p277 of ADoAJG.

Ah yeah, good old 残念ながら. Nothing like learning those canned phrases. When you want to say "I'm sorry to say," or "Unfortunately," or something along those lines you will always use 残念ながら instead of 残念ものの, because it's a set phrase.

As for 残念ものの, I thought it sounded weird, so I decided to make sure. In this case, Google is your friend. I noticed that I didn't see the two combined in any results　on the first few pages. That leads me to believe that it's whether it's theoretically grammatical or not, people don't use it because it sounds weird. I couldn't find it in ALC's database, either, and that has a crapton of sentences in it.

In this case, it's safer (and correct) to stick to your cliches, whether you think you're right or not.

harhol, I guess I was mistaken. I always understood ものの as needing to be in reference to some situation or condition, which is why I figured I never saw it as a stem. When I said it gave us no information, I meant that we don`t know what is 残念.

As rich points out, I can`t find 残念なものの anywhere but I suppose its grammatically possible.

I get ~300,000 hits on Google for 残念なものの (as opposed to ~8,000,000 hits for 残念ながら). Not an everyday phrasing but not that obscure imo.

Anyway, it's a moot point in this case because there is no な after 残念 to attach to the beginning of ものの, so ものの cannot be used.

That's it- finished the book! 3 tests to go.

Test 10 (155-173, pp.100-102). I got 77% on this one. Just a couple of questions

3/2 - 危険な遊びは＿＿＿に限る. I actually got this right, choosing c) せず, but why is it not しない?

3/3 - これは個人的な問題ですから、ここでは＿＿＿かねます。The answer is d) 話して, but I was certain that かねます always took the ます form, and so it should be 話し？

3/4 - Again, what looks like a wrong answer. 新幹線は、なんと早くて__ことか。Answer is supposedly c) 便利の, but the grammar point lists it as b) 便利な！

4/5 - このセーター、ちょっと大きくないこともないけど....I put a) サイズがちょうどいいから買おう, but the answer is d) 色が気に入ったので買うことにしよう。I really don't understand this grammar point (166) - can anyone explain it to me?

I'm going to take 4/5 and return to 3/2-4 when I get up and awake, and can take a look at my book.

4/5: このセーター、ちょっと大きくないこともないけど…
What it's saying is：
ちょっと大きくない -- The sweater is not a little big (perfect fit)
こともない -- "the situation in which" also does not exist
"The situation in which it is not a little big does not exist"
"The sweater (is a not little big/is a perfect fit); we are not in that situation"
"The sweater (is a little big/is not a perfect fit)"

~ないこともない is like 'the previous statement may be true, but...'
Kind of like admitting something has a fault, but eventually deciding it's not that big of a fault anyway.
So "even though" the sweater is a little big, she likes the color, so she decided to buy it.
Maybe "even though" is a good way to think about it.

I think it's similar to 形容詞＋くはないけど
食べたくはないけど、無料だし、食べちゃおう
"I don't really feel like eating, but it's free, so let's dig in!"

(I've just flown back from Florida to the US and have horrible jetlag, so treat these answers with a pinch of salt :-))

stevesayskanpai Wrote:3/2 - 危険な遊びは＿＿＿に限る. I actually got this right, choosing c) せず, but why is it not しない?

In my edition the answer guide gives the correct answer as b) しない.

Quote:3/3 - これは個人的な問題ですから、ここでは＿＿＿かねます。The answer is d) 話して, but I was certain that かねます always took the ます form, and so it should be 話し？

Yes, and my edition gives the answer as a) 話し.

Quote:3/4 - Again, what looks like a wrong answer. 新幹線は、なんと早くて__ことか。Answer is supposedly c) 便利の, but the grammar point lists it as b) 便利な！

My edition says the answer is b).

Are you sure you weren't reading the line of the answer guide for 4 by mistake?

Quote:4/5 - このセーター、ちょっと大きくないこともないけど....I put a) サイズがちょうどいいから買おう, but the answer is d) 色が気に入ったので買うことにしよう。I really don't understand this grammar point (166) - can anyone explain it to me?

Asriel's right. Here's what 日本語文型事典 has to say:

日本語文型事典 Wrote:二重の否定表現が用いられ「そのような面がある/可能性がある」といった肯定的な意味を表す。全面的にそうだというわけではないが、そのように言える面があるといった、断定を保留する気持ちを表すような場合に用いられる。「言えなくもない」「気がしなくもない」のような形がようく用いられる。

I think the ちょっと in the test sentence makes it a bit trickier to understand than some of the other examples.

Ok, I have no excuse, and am a giant idiot - I read off the wrong answers!

*Shame*

Well, reading off the wrong answers on the test and you still get 77%?? Thats pretty impressive in itself

Test III (116-173), pp.103-105

I won't give myself a score on this one, as I did it about three times, and spent ages making notes. This was a really good test for sorting out the various もの and こと grammar points that appear in this book - and there are a lot of them.

1/3 一人でやれる＿＿＿やりますか、一人ではとても無理です。 Why is this ものなら？

1/6 - 言葉＿＿＿違う外国で暮らすのは大変なことだ。The options are からして・からすると・からすれば・からには. Is it the former simply because its giving a judgement from an example, as opposed to a standpoint?

3. After a long time I understand all of these except two - 6) and 9).

3.6 - つまらない話で真夜中に電話をかけてくるとは、非常識という「ものだ」
3.9 - モーツァルトの音楽には人々にやすらぎをあたえる「ものがある」

Aren't ものだ and ものがある interchangeable here? Is it JUST because for 3.6 there is a という, so it has to be ものだ？

4. Another very hard question. Two again that seem interchangeable to me:

4.2 あしたの試合はキャプテンぬきでは「勝てるわけがない」
4.3 選手に選ばれたからには「何とかして優勝したい」

Aren't these interchangeable?

One test to go!

stevesayskanpai Wrote:1/3 一人でやれる＿＿＿やりますか、一人ではとても無理です。 Why is this ものなら？

That's やりますが , not か, by the way. We're looking for something that will give us an "if I could do it by myself I would, but" meaning. Neither からには nor ことだから have that -- the preceding phrase is some definite fact on which the following phrase is based, and they don't work with counterfactuals like this. (I'm assuming you're already happy that にしろ is no good here.)

stevesayskanpai Wrote:4.2 あしたの試合はキャプテンぬきでは「勝てるわけがない」
4.3 選手に選ばれたからには「何とかして優勝したい」

Aren't these interchangeable?

Nope. "Since we don't have the captain for tomorrow's match" "there's no way we can win".
"Now that I've been selected as a player" "I want to win somehow or other".

4.2 can't take 何とかして優勝したい without some grammar clause meaning "but", "although", which ぬきでは doesn't give you. 4.3 can't take 勝てるわけがない because からには takes expressions of will, recommendations, and often has some sort of "if I'm doing this I'm going to do my best" meaning, so although "Now I've been selected as a player there's no way we can win" works in English it doesn't work with からには. (Also it's a bit downbeat and unlikely for a test question :-))

stevesayskanpai Wrote:3.6 - つまらない話で真夜中に電話をかけてくるとは、非常識という「ものだ」
3.9 - モーツァルトの音楽には人々にやすらぎをあたえる「ものがある」

Aren't ものだ and ものがある interchangeable here? Is it JUST because for 3.6 there is a という, so it has to be ものだ？

I don't think ものだ works in 3.9 because then the sentence structure is XにはYものだ which I don't think really fits. Marking the thing your ものがある sentence is describing with に(は) is the common case. Similarly in 3.6 XとはYだ is a common pattern whereas XとはYがある seems a bit weird to me (when と is the quotative rather than the other と use, anyway).

stevesayskanpai Wrote:1/6 - 言葉＿＿＿違う外国で暮らすのは大変なことだ。The options are からして・からすると・からすれば・からには. Is it the former simply because its giving a judgement from an example, as opposed to a standpoint?

(I'm going to assume you know why からには is definitely wrong.)
So there are three basic meanings which からして・からすると・からすれば divide between them:
(1) "looking at it from X's viewpoint" [KM 117 meaning A]: either からすると or からすれば
(2) "judging by s.t", stating the basis of a guess [KM 117 A and 116 B]: any of the three are OK
(3) singling out an example for emphasis, "even X" [KM 116 A]: only からして. This is roughly the same meaning as さえ and すら although how you use them grammatically is a little different.

So you can note a couple of things from this. Firstly, からすると and からすれば are basically the same meaning, so if the question offers you both then neither can be correct :-)
Secondly, the usage in this sentence is type (3) so it must be からして.

Thanks Pm - very logical response. So, onto the final final test! I got 62% on this, which I was a bit disappointed with. However, since then, I got 64% on the 2008 2kyuu paper, which I was very pleased with, because my mark broke down as [Reading and Grammar] 69.4%, [Listening] 61.5% and [Vocab] 55.5%. The latter of these is clearly the easiest to pull my mark up on, and I think such a low score on that part will not happen again.

BIG KANZEN TEST I-II-III (pp.108-112)

1/15- 人は年を取ると忘れっぽくなる＿＿＿だ。 Surely here わけ だ (of course; expected result) is as appropriate as ものだ (express something as common sense)?

1/19- いつも朝寝坊する彼のことだ。６時の集合時間に間に合う＿＿＿。Why is this ものか and not まいか? Is it because it is someone else (not watashi)?

1/26 - あの人はみじめですよ。休んだことがない＿＿＿一度も遅刻したこともないのですから。Could this not be うえは (moreover) as much as どころか (not just)

3/4 - わたしが映画館に入った時、その映画は＿＿＿ので、最初からもう一度見ることにした。Couldn't the answer here be any of a) 終わり気味だった , b) 終わりかけていた , c) 終わりきるところだった？

3/6 - レポートをあさってまでに書かなければならないので、テレビを見る＿＿＿。昨日は夜もほとんど寝ていないんです。Couldn't this be a) べきではありません as much as d) どころではありません, or is it the second part that elevates the degree of how much TV can't be watched?

1/15 - わけだ would make sense if there were reasons for and leading up to it.
人は年を取ると忘れっぽくなる。
高橋は年を取っている。
従って、高橋は忘れっぽくなるわけだ。
That's probably too straightforward, but yeah. I've also heard it as like "so you're saying that ... ???" Like drawing conclusions out of what people say. So no, I'd say that if it's just that one sentence, ものだ is probably the better fit.

1/19 - まいか is like a 'purposeful negative.' ものか is like a rhetorical question, so like "Do you really think he's gonna make the 6 o'clock meetup time???"
まいか is similar in this case, because you could say "Dude, do you really think I'd miss the 6:00 meetup time??" but I'm pretty sure it requires some personal effort. It's that 'volition to not do" something. Which yeah, in this case, it's talking about someone else, so you can't really speak for their volition.

1/26 - I wouldn't say 上は is "moreover." I think you're thinking of 上に, 上には. But I'm not really 100% on my　上's.
I think 上は is like "Since" or "Considering [previous]" or "Now that"(edict )
弁護士になると決めた上は、苦しくてもがんばらなければならない
"Since I decided to become a lawyer, I've gotta がんばる even if it's 苦しい"
友人が困っているのを知った上は、黙って見ていられない
"Now that I found out my friend was troubled, I can't just remain silent and watching"

3/6. You're probably thinking of べきではない as like "shouldn't do," because it's べき＋じゃない, right? It's more like "there's no requirement to" watch TV, as opposed to "there is a requirement to not watch TV." In English "not supposed to" and "supposed to not do" are pretty similar, but here they're different.
どころではない is kind of more like "This isn't the time to watch TV!!" thing.

stevesayskanpai Wrote:3/4 - わたしが映画館に入った時、その映画は＿＿＿ので、最初からもう一度見ることにした。Couldn't the answer here be any of a) 終わり気味だった , b) 終わりかけていた , c) 終わりきるところだった？

気味 is 'showing signs of', 'showing a tendency to', 'liable to', 'prone to' (it's quite close in meaning to がち which you've already ruled out), so it doesn't fit here.

For the other two, google brings up this answer which looks like a plausible set of explanations.

(I note that google has ~200,000 hits for 終わりかけていた and 10 for 終わりきるところだった, all of which look like they're quotes of this KM question. We can deduce from this that the latter is simply not natural Japanese.)

stevesayskanpai Wrote:1/19- いつも朝寝坊する彼のことだ。６時の集合時間に間に合う＿＿＿。Why is this ものか and not まいか? Is it because it is someone else (not watashi)?

The "strong -ve volition" meaning of まい (no か! -- we've talked about that before) has to be either about the speaker or in some sort of frame like 田中さんはもう行くまいと思った. That leaves us with the "~ないだろう" meaning (and again the か inclines us to that anyway). So I think that the thing that makes ものか better is (a) that it feels like a more plausible continuation to say "there's no way he's going to be on time" than "he probably will not be on time" and (b) まい is basically a formal, written kind of style which seems a bit out of place here.

This next is going out on a limb a little, but I think 日本語文型事典 is agreeing with me. I don't think まいか really turns up except in certain constructions:
(1) in forms like 行こうか行くまいか and 行くか行くまいか meaning "whether X goes or not" (these are JLPT1, if you care)
(2) in Xではあるまいか == Xではないだろうか meaning "probably X"
(3) in Vてくれまいか and Vてもらえまいか (ie with the aux verbs of giving/receiving くれる and もらう) meaning Vてくれ and Vてもらえないだろうか. I hadn't heard of this one but 日本語文型事典 lists it.
and otherwise you want まい without the か.

”~とおり(に) / ~どおり(に)
意味：　Just as~
接続：　[動-辞書形 / た形；名-の]＋とおり　；　[名]＋どおり
例文：　説明書に書いてあるとおりにやってみてください。”

”~ところに / ~ところへ / ~ところを
意味：　At that time ; At that place ; At that scene
接続：　[動-辞書形 / た形 / ている形；い形-い]＋ところに
例文：　ちょうどキムさんのうわざをしているところに、本人がやって来た。”


There are just some sentences I just can't wrap my head without a translation or a dumbed down equivalent. (for example, 応じて＝で)

説明書に書いてあるとおりにやってみてください。
Please try to do it just as it is written. (?)

ちょうどキムさんのうわざをしているところに、本人がやって来た。
As Kim was trying to do it, she did it. (うわざっては？)

よろしく御願いします！

Quote:説明書に書いてあるとおりにやってみてください。
Please try to do it just as it is written. (?)

そのとおり！
Yep, just like that. I usually encounter it as in like...
「あなたの言う通り……」"Just as you say..." [the ham is in the microwave! etc..]
things that have been said, thought, presented, etc..
Also, 予定通りに進まなかった "didn't proceed as according to plan..."
It seems you've got it understood.

Quote:ちょうどキムさんのうわざをしているところに、本人がやって来た。
As Kim was trying to do it, she did it. (うわざっては？)

うわざ　＝　うわさ probably.
"Just as [i] was gossiping about Kim-san, the real person came up!"
In this case, it's like "We were talking about Kim-san, and speak of the devil, there she came!"
But ところに is the part that signifies the "at that moment," or "in the midst of" in this case.
You'll also see "お休みのところをお邪魔いたしまして、申し訳ありません。" like .."Sorry to bother you when you're on your break[vacation]..."

I guess it's kind of like あいだ or 瞬間 in the sense that it signifies something happening "at that certain point in time."

"そのとおり" Ha, I got it afterall. Thanks for the extra examples!

Oh, I see. That wasn't the first typo from that website. There was one with the grammar point "たとえ" as well. Thanks for helping me out!

"科学者である小林さんは実験に熱心なあまり、昼食をとるのを忘れることもしばしばある。"

"Because the scientist, Kobayashi, rarely is passionate about his lab experiments, he has started to forget his lunches."

Can someone please correct this for me?

"〜あまり" is a bit harder to understand; I think it's like, "because (I) rarely ever".
何度もありがとうございます！