Hey everybody, I´m writing this post because my learning process of Japanese has reached it´s bottom. I think the best name for my problem is the "all or nothing" problem. What I mean by this is that I for some weird reason do have the idea that language learning is only effective if you manage to repeat and learn a lot each day, and that small steps or efforts are a waste of time. If your eyes just popped out in direction of the screen, I guess you are the right ones to help me.

The problem is that because I have this idea abut language learning I tend to do either ALL my repetitions or NONE, because it is somewhere stuck in my head that the first way is the only right and the second one is a complete waste of time.

The funniest thing about it is that I don´t even KNOW where I have this idea from! I guess this feeling comes from a strange mix of different thoughts about language learning, above all that it is a part of human nature to forget things, and that language learning only makes sense if you repeat vocabulary and sentences in a certain pattern, and that this pattern can only be achieved by repeating the same entries over several days in a row (is that even true??). So in conclusion, let´s say i learn a sentence today but I don´t repeat it the next day for whatever reason (right now it´s introduction week at the uni and I can´t really plan anything, which isn´t even my fault, but it still makes me FEEL guilty!), then I think that the effort of learning it on the first day is a complete waste of time because I didn´t stick to the rules of my memory.

My questions now are:

1. Are the any learners of Japanese (or any other language!) that have faced the same problem? And if yes, how did you cope with it?

2. Does anyone maybe have some data about remembering and/ or forgetting patterns? Does it even make sense to believe that not studying the same words/ sentences for several days in a row is useless? What can you tell me from experience?

3. Can you tell me from experience whether it is good for the learning process if you learn a word/ sentence on one day intensely and then maybe again in a few days? The most frustrating part about this is that I have the feeling that I cannot "work" on my Japanese! If I sit down with my guitar for 3 hours, I know the practicing effect does not vanish until the next day, but what about languages?

Sorry, this got really long, but I´m just desperate right now!

Tobi

My first thought after reading this was that if I tried doing everything every day, I'd burn out within the week.

Second thought was this: Just try to do something every day, and don't do the same thing. So you can't review a sentence to the the level of completeness you want to, every single day. I bet you won't feel quite as bad if you watched a drama/anime, listened to a few podcasts, music, or read something (even if it's Japanese Wikipedia with Rikaichan) instead. You're still keeping your brain on Japanese to some level. If it makes you feel better, write a few of those sentences down, and just read them that day. That's it. You'll get the physical practice of writing, and then pop the sentence back in your brain when you read.

Do what you can when you can.

You said it's intro week. Take something with you, because I can almost guarantee there will be a lot of waiting around for stuff to happen. iPod, sentences, list of kanji you're currently working on to write, whatever.

I agree.
There's something you must understand. The idea behind sentence mining, as you pointed out, is to integrate patterns, which shall make you able to understand the new sentences you'll be exposed to in the long run. You really don't care about "learning" the sentence literaly. Studies just showed this was more efficiently done through SRS, because the same imprint of a same object is then made deeper. But it is also efficient to do that with other sentences similiraly constructed. The task will be more time and concentration consuming, but it will also be effective, even if less. You've got to get rid of this absolute kind of thinking. Everybody will tell you it's daily exposure that works best. You'll just have to learn to discipline yourself (the hardest part IMO).

The all or nothing is actually a burning out structure. You do a lot, get saturated, so you take a rest, but feel guilty because you know daily practice is better, so you re-do too much, get saturated, rest guiltly... That's not good. Kick back, watch a good anime, listen to some shakuhachi/koto music, make some green tea while looking at ink paintings, eat using chopsticks... You don't need the pressure, what you need is dedication.
So you haven't done anything today? Fine, better luck tomorrow. Setting too high objectives is a cause of failure.
In most cases, you don't even need material. Just try to think in Japanese. Just thinking "dumb bi***" or "what a beautiful day I'm so happy" in Japanese will set up automatisms, so it will get easier and easier to turn on Japanese mode, and by then, you won't need quantity, you'll need regularity.

Are you using an SRS? That would seem to be the answer to your problem.

Anyway it's not like you wouldn't succeed taking it slowly, it'll just take longer to get there.

In my experience (and I think there's research to support this somewhere to support this) it's more effective to do 15 minutes a day, 6 days a week than to do 3 hours one day and nothing for the rest of the week. Then again, 15 minutes 5 times a day and 30 hours one day is even better. It's important to keep the momentum one way or another. I think this answers one or part of one of your questions.

Quote:Can you tell me from experience whether it is good for the learning process if you learn a word/ sentence on one day intensely and then maybe again in a few days?

I'm not sure what you mean by learning a word intensely. Are you using an SRS, or are you using paper flashcards? If you have an SRS, you don't have to worry much about how far apart to space your reviews because the SRS takes care of this for you. When I want to learn a new word, I put it in my SRS, and review the flashcard until I can answer it correctly once. Then it's scheduled for the following day. If I can still answer it after a day, then it's scheduled for 2 days, and so on.

It sounds like you know it's time to shift your idea's about learning. I think this forum is a great place to get advice, so you came to the right place. People here have tried just about everything...

Look up "the spacing effect".

Most people around here use Spaced Repetition Software (SRS) to maximize their retention (utilizing the spacing effect) - these are computer scheduled flash cards. Anki is the program that I and many others use. It is free to download, and fairly easy to use, just google it. It works well, because it also utilizes "the testing effect", meaning, you learn better by testing and then reviewing, then by reviewing alone (there's some science out there to support this notion).

I think committing to doing what you can on average each day will be effective. If you can only regularly do an hour or whatever - do it. If you want Japanese, make it a daily habit. Then on days where you can do more - go for it. But don't slack on the reviews, or create too many to realistically manage. Find a pace that fits your life style. Just don't quit, it's a lot of wasted effort if you do. Myself and many others can attest to that.

Slow and steady, or fast and steady -> whatever, but just stay as consistent as possible if you want to be efficient and progress in your goal.

Also about learning the word initially -

Some will say to use an SRS to keep what you already have "learned" , not for learning the word (or sentence) - But as JimmySeal is saying, you can learn it by reviewing inside the SRS. You'll just fail it many times possibly before you start getting it right, and reviews space it out. There is a setting in anki that uses a learning review pattern to pace cards for the initial learning of the word (also called "encoding"). I think this is an excellent way to go. I have a card deck just for this, that temporarily houses my new cards for one day, that I review in maybe 3-7 different mini sessions throughout the day to intitialy learn them (using anki on my i pod). Then I put the "learned" words into my regular card deck that has all my other cards, for long term retention.

There's a thread on here somewhere where I got the idea from someone else, that has the learning mode setting, and method. In my experience this is a great method.

Edit: This is the forum link that has the method. The settings for the learning deck are at the bottom of the forum topic. If you want to do this and need help just post, and I can put in some step by steps. You might need more details if you are new to anki.

Or, you will fail it 24 times and it will get suspended (in Anki).
It's best to come back to words like that later and not try to force it.

Timeboxing's a good cure for this. Especially the (10+2)*5 procrastination hack. (See Google.)

Dairwolf Wrote:1. Are the any learners of Japanese (or any other language!) that have faced the same problem? And if yes, how did you cope with it?

Take any measures necessary in order to combat procrastination. Always work against the clock. When you want to be in "work" mode, don't sit down at your computer without some sort of timer running.

Dairwolf Wrote:2. Does anyone maybe have some data about remembering and/ or forgetting patterns? Does it even make sense to believe that not studying the same words/ sentences for several days in a row is useless? What can you tell me from experience?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgetting_curve

Dairwolf Wrote:3. Can you tell me from experience whether it is good for the learning process if you learn a word/ sentence on one day intensely and then maybe again in a few days?

It's not good.

Thank you all very much for your answers. I actually used to learn with paper flash cards and now I already skipped to Anki. But for some reason it just doesn´t feel "right" to learn with it. A lot of people told me that it is a good learning tool, and for logical reasons it totally makes sense, but somehow that doesn´t stick to my brain.

Maybe I can describe my problem in more detail:
Let´s say I learn 30 new sentences today. Then I learn 30 new sentences tomorrow, but the old ones have to be repeated in order to stick to my memory. Then on the third day, yet again if I learn 30 new sentences it piles up to a total of ninety sentences, and so on. I do have the feeling that it just piles up to a huge amount I can´t handle anymore from some point on. Now you could argue that if I rated my sentences differently, there would be more time between the repetition of the same sentences, but if I think about it, it comes to this:

Let´s say I rate my sentences in a way that Anki asks me the same sentences in 7 days. Then on that 7th day, I will have new sentences and the old ones I learned before. So it doesn´t really "erase" the problem of the piling-up-effect, it only shifts it to other days. So after some days of weeks there will be the same problematic effect of having too much to review...

Actually I feel like this is a misconception of Anki and SRS on computers in general, but unfortunately my head tells me that it doesn´t make any sense to start learning because the sentences will eventually pile up to a huge review mountain I would never be able to cope with.

I guess this is really weird, but what can you tell me about this? How many entences/ vocab can I review with this method? Khatzumoto of alljapaneseallthetime.com says that you can learn 50 sentences a day, which would be awesome, but wouldn´t this pile up to a gigantic amount of review?

Even if you rate them high, you'll still have to review them in 7 days right? ...Kind of. It gives you leeway so you don't get flooded with reviews like that. So, your 50 cards will come back in like, 5-10 days, so that's a 5 day spread, leaving you with 10 reviews a day? That's not so bad.
After that it's 21(?) days, so probably 15-25 days later, leaving you with 5 reviews a day. You've gone 0+10+25 days = 1 month and gone through 150 reviews, but it didn't feel like anything.

If you add cards every day, the numbers will add up, there's no doubt about that. But if it's becoming unbearable, just wait a while for the numbers die down (as we just saw that they will). You'll find patterns of when cards show up a lot, and show up not so much. You'll find that you'll find your own comfort zone of when and how many cards to add.

You're not reviewing them all in one huge lump, and you won't have 90 cards to review in one day because you added 10 cards a day in 9 days. It tapers off. I don't know the actual math, but just give it a try and you'll see.

One of the reasons I switched from sentences to vocab at the beginning was because sentences were so time consuming. The golden rule for SRS is X+1 but even beginner sentences when you don't know any vocab can often contain five or six new things (vocab & grammar). And the more difficult your SRSing is, the more likely you are to procrastinate and get even further behind. With vocab you can get through around 300 reviews per hour. IMO you should only SRS sentences which contain one new item, either grammar or vocab, and it's impossible to do that right away, so I'd suggest starting with some vocab if you're not enjoying sentences (bear in mind that AJATT's "sentence" mining also started out with simple vocab items).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFunCPyvmyY

Language learning is not a race.

You don't have to strap yourself to a computer and learn 50 sentences every day. If you don't already enjoy doing that and if it doesn't already work for you it never will. Find a good pace of learning that works for you, and you only. Don't worry about what number of sentences 誰々 is learning.

Asriel Wrote:Even if you rate them high, you'll still have to review them in 7 days right? ...Kind of. It gives you leeway so you don't get flooded with reviews like that. So, your 50 cards will come back in like, 5-10 days, so that's a 5 day spread, leaving you with 10 reviews a day? That's not so bad.
After that it's 21(?) days, so probably 15-25 days later, leaving you with 5 reviews a day. You've gone 0+10+25 days = 1 month and gone through 150 reviews, but it didn't feel like anything.

This might be the answers to my problem. Does Anki spread the card over this 5-10 or later 15-25 day period on it´s own, even if i rate the cards the same way? Let´s take the example again: I take 50 new entries and rate them all with the highest possible number (of course this is unrealistic, but I just want to understand how the programme works, so let´s just think you would do it for now). Then, will Anki ask me ALL or those entries after 50 days or just a smaller number of those entries? Of course then it wouldn´t pile up entries as much as I think it did! And also, Anki is much more awesome than I thought when it´s that way... By the way, can you look up the exact repition patterns of Anki somewhere?

Just add however many you're comfortable with, balance out adding new cards with making sure you do the previously added cards. Some people switch off, adding new cards only every other day. Others add tiny amounts of cards throughout the day. Anki, based on your ever-shifting evaluation of your own performance per repetition, finds the minimal amount of total reviews for cards by spacing them further apart, taking advantage of the spacing effect as the best means for maximally retaining information (which is clinically proven but anecdotally counterintuitive to those who feel as many reps as possible, cramming and suchlike, is best).

Edit: If you wanted to force the total # of reviews to be the same for the sake of argument, like 50 in 10 days vs. 50 in many more days, then the latter would be qualitatively more effective in terms of you actually retaining the information, and thus the example would be more accurately depicted as: However many you do spread out over time via Anki's algorithmically increasing spaces will be much less in total than you'd do without Anki if you wanted to have the same level of retention. Thus in those ever-increasing spaces where you're not wasting time cramming, you're able to learn new information, which in turn has an exponential effect by providing other forms of reinforcement by having related information. Or something. ;p

Anki reschedules each card individually, obviously based on how you rated (and have rated in the past) that card.
Go to Settings -> Deck Properties -> Advanced, and you can see what the spread is going to be for each rating.
I guess my math was kind of off...sorry about that.

I'm not actually an expert on how it all works and what these numbers mean, but I'm sure it's in the documentation. If you have specific Anki questions, ask them at the Anki forums, because people here generally don't know.

Will it ask you all those cards after 50 days? I would hope so, because I wouldn't trust myself to remember something that long with no reviews. But since it treats cards individually instead of groups, if you failed some of the cards, they would definitely come up again, and their intervals reset, whereas the ones you knew would continue on with their large gaps between reviews.

Womacks23 Wrote:Language learning is not a race.

Technically it is for anyone learning it with a career/location move in mind, which I'd guess is quite a lot of people.

I like this explanation of how SRS works.
http://www.xamuel.com/spaced-repetition-systems/

But anyway by default, there is a small amount of randomization in the intervals.

As previously stated, the initial intervals in are in the advanced settings in Anki. Lets say you rate everything with the same rating, things are still going to spread out slightly. If you rate everything on easy your first time looking at 30 facts, your going to see them again in 7-9 days. This is a 3 day spread that your going to see the cards again in. This alone is what is going to help spread out your reviews. Later, all these cards might have 30 days intervals, but they are going to be spread out across a week's or more time.

Now realistically in Anki your going to give different facts different ratings, this should spread out your reviews a bit more and also allow you to focus on what you find most difficult.

If your getting overwhelmed with reviews, just stop adding new cards till you can handle the load. If you stop adding new facts, your intervals will just keep getting bigger and bigger, reducing your workload. In fact reducing what you add is the best thing to do if you know your going to have a heavy schedule in a week or two. If you have finals or a trip coming up, it's not a bad idea to reduce what you add, so it's easier to keep up with reviews.

I nowhere near add stuff everyday... I mean I guess I could but it would take ages, I wouldn't be learning it well, and I'd have far less time for reading, watching drama, doing workbooks etc... I definitely wouldn't want anki taking up the bulk of my study time. It's just there to remind me of stuff I've learnt through other methods.

nest0r Wrote:Anki, based on your ever-shifting evaluation of your own performance per repetition, finds the minimal amount of total reviews for cards by spacing them further apart, taking advantage of the spacing effect as the best means for maximally retaining information (which is clinically proven but anecdotally counterintuitive to those who feel as many reps as possible, cramming and suchlike, is best).

This sounds like it was written for me. When I still used to use paper flash cards, I really WAS cramming. I was reviewing the same material over and over, and what can I say? For some reason it FELT good! I had the feeling that the material sticks to my memory. Now, if I use Anki, I feel kind of guilty because I´m afraid that I won´t review the same material soon enough BECAUSE of the spreading effect! Just like nest0r sad, it feels "counterintuitive", just wrong, even if my mind and my logic (and everybody here and in other forums) tells me that it is effective. So now, after some thinking and the help of you all, I might yet again be able to describe my problem in better words:

- I am the type of learner (at least until now) that somewhat needs cramming in order to feel comfortable with new (and also old) material.
- I don´t feel comfortable with it if there´s too long of a gap between the reviews.

So to put it in constructive questions:
1. Do you actually LEARN material with Anki or do you use it rather to review old material that you know you once had sticking to your memory? If these are two different steps for you, how do you actually learn new material and how long does it take?
2. Would it be smart to divide the material I put into Anki into smaller decks, so that I can cram the same material for a longer time in a row? Does Anki maybe even have that function or would I have to create the smaller decks anew, even if I have the material in a large deck?
3. How much time do you need in order to learn or review a fact? Do these times differ?

1. For some reason, I feel like I 'learn' material simply by typing it into Anki. I'm not sure if my short term memory is just crazy good or what, but doing anything more than that is overkill to me. Read it, type it in, wait a bit, review, done.
The exception is when I add a lot of information to cram right before a quiz. I have to do the 'cram' function to study/cram in a more "traditional" method. I had 112 facts yesterday at 10:00, quiz at 12:00, and just got 1 question wrong.

2. I have different decks, but they are separated by category, not by what I want to study. I've tried cramming/"learn"ing them beforehand, and I've found that it may help in the short run (but as we've already seen, my short term memory is pretty good to begin with)...It doesn't actually help me retain it in the long run any better. But you can choose to only "Cram" cards with certain tags/models, etc... if you choose to

3. Depends on if I understand it. As long as I read it, and then check on some things to make sure I know the nuances correctly, I consider it "learned" and stick it in the deck. This is mainly for recognition vocab words: I don't deal with sentences a whole lot. Plus, a lot of the words I learn I don't (can't?) produce in actual conversation, though I might understand them.


Yes, when I first used Anki, I too felt it was very counter intuitive, and I was hitting the "review early" button all the time (which isn't a good idea). You can get through all the cards again and again, but the intervals just keep getting longer and longer (which they shouldn't). Just give it a go for a few weeks, trusting the machine, and you'll see how it works.

Thank you all very much. I hope this is my final question regarding this post, yet it´s the same thing put in other words. I´m sorry, but it´s just rotating in my head and I still don´t feel as if I have the solution - although I think I´m close to it!

So, here it is: How can you learn a huge amount of entries with Anki without having to do 400 or so reps a day?

You might have guessed it, I´m planning to switch to the AJATT method because it makes a lot of sense to me, so I want to learn (at least) 10000 sentences. The only thing I´ll probably do differently is that the direction will be the other way, so that I learn from German (my native language) to Japanese because I´m studying Japanese at the university and I´m writing exams, so I definetely need to know whether I can recall something for those tests.

Do you know anything about how much Khatzumoto (or anyone else who learned that much vocab/ sentences) spend learning everyday? Do you really need to sit in front of your computer 3 hours each day to become this good at Japanese? I mean, even if you take much more time than Khatzumoto (let´s say 3 Years instead of 1 1/2 years), you´ll come to a point when you´ll have to do that much amount of reviews per day, right?

Dairwolf Wrote:So, here it is: How can you learn a huge amount of entries with Anki without having to do 400 or so reps a day?

You can't. Reviews are the only way to assess the learning process.

Same goes with AJATT. The guy actually reviewed his 10 000 sentences.

For the rest, go check the AJATT method thread (and post there), or check Khatz' site directly (I remember he explains everything).

Roughly, it's not about sitting 3 hours, it's cumulating as much hours as you can of listenning (to Japanese tv, music)(while eating, on the bus, etc), of watching (Japanese news, anime), changing your windows (or other) to Japanese mode, buy Japanese food, so you need to read the instructions in Japanese on the side (plus skype, lang 8, reading novels in Japanese...)... in addition to your regular studying everyday.

Sorry I couldn't help more, but I'm not (yet) an Anki man.