EratiK Wrote:

Dairwolf Wrote:So, here it is: How can you learn a huge amount of entries with Anki without having to do 400 or so reps a day?

You can't. Reviews are the only way to assess the learning process.

Or you can go try to communicate in Japanese and see where that gets you

harhol Wrote:

Womacks23 Wrote:Language learning is not a race.

Technically it is for anyone learning it with a career/location move in mind, which I'd guess is quite a lot of people.

Touche

Man people are putting a whole lot of faith that once they get their 1級 certificate and Tokyo job then things will be smooth sailing...hahaha.

If learning Japanese is a race then it is one that never ends.

EratiK Wrote:

Dairwolf Wrote:So, here it is: How can you learn a huge amount of entries with Anki without having to do 400 or so reps a day?

You can't. Reviews are the only way to assess the learning process.

Ok, agreed on that. But does that mean that ´til the rest of my life I will have to spent 4 hours or so reviewing everyday in order to speak Japanese, assuming that you can speak Japanese after learning 10000 sentences? Or will those 10000 sentences become a part of my memory as much as that I don´t have to review them anymore? I guess that goes for the most basic vocabulary which you learn at the very beginning, but what about sentences/ vocabulary I learn now?

Dairwolf Wrote:Thank you all very much. I hope this is my final question regarding this post, yet it´s the same thing put in other words. I´m sorry, but it´s just rotating in my head and I still don´t feel as if I have the solution - although I think I´m close to it!

So, here it is: How can you learn a huge amount of entries with Anki without having to do 400 or so reps a day?

You might have guessed it, I´m planning to switch to the AJATT method because it makes a lot of sense to me, so I want to learn (at least) 10000 sentences. The only thing I´ll probably do differently is that the direction will be the other way, so that I learn from German (my native language) to Japanese because I´m studying Japanese at the university and I´m writing exams, so I definetely need to know whether I can recall something for those tests.

Do you know anything about how much Khatzumoto (or anyone else who learned that much vocab/ sentences) spend learning everyday? Do you really need to sit in front of your computer 3 hours each day to become this good at Japanese? I mean, even if you take much more time than Khatzumoto (let´s say 3 Years instead of 1 1/2 years), you´ll come to a point when you´ll have to do that much amount of reviews per day, right?

How many you're stuck with in a day depends on how well you learn the information and grade yourself on reviews. Try to take on too much and you'll have bottlenecks -- but overall, whatever you do, it'll be less in total per day and over time, room for more information in total, than if you tried to learn and remember the same stuff without spaced repetition. The condition for this simplistic rendering being that we're discussing flashcards and such, i.e. if you go this route rather than combining it with non-SRS strategies (I think philosophicaly most of us prefer both) or don't prefer other forms of learning/immersion sans SRS (I think most of us here frown on that? ;p).

See Blackmacros' thread about 'workflow' or somesuch and maybe posts like 'jlpt in 3 months' or '100 x a day', etc., to see various conversations about this sort of thing.

Dairwolf Wrote:The only thing I´ll probably do differently is that the direction will be the other way, so that I learn from German (my native language) to Japanese because I´m studying Japanese at the university and I´m writing exams, so I definetely need to know whether I can recall something for those tests.

This is much more difficult than recognition in my experience. And also works better with vocab than sentences, as there are loads of different ways to translate a sentence.

Dairwolf Wrote:Ok, agreed on that. But does that mean that ´til the rest of my life I will have to spent 4 hours or so reviewing everyday in order to speak Japanese, assuming that you can speak Japanese after learning 10000 sentences? Or will those 10000 sentences become a part of my memory as much as that I don´t have to review them anymore? I guess that goes for the most basic vocabulary which you learn at the very beginning, but what about sentences/ vocabulary I learn now?

Hmmm... nest0r pretty much summed it up.

The 10 000 sentences are only a way to internalize the Japanese grammatical patterns. See it as a Japanese aid. In the long run you won't need to review them, you'd rather be reviewing your 20k vocab instead (even though you'll still be remembering them if I believe what I heard on this forum). And speaking Japanese starts right now. Saying "ゆるしく"　and "めんどくせ"　is already speaking Japanese. Communicative abilities start with even less than 50 fifty words of vocab.

Dairwolf Wrote:

EratiK Wrote:

Dairwolf Wrote:So, here it is: How can you learn a huge amount of entries with Anki without having to do 400 or so reps a day?

You can't. Reviews are the only way to assess the learning process.

Ok, agreed on that. But does that mean that ´til the rest of my life I will have to spent 4 hours or so reviewing everyday in order to speak Japanese, assuming that you can speak Japanese after learning 10000 sentences? Or will those 10000 sentences become a part of my memory as much as that I don´t have to review them anymore? I guess that goes for the most basic vocabulary which you learn at the very beginning, but what about sentences/ vocabulary I learn now?

The spaces grow further apart until you reach months/years/centuries before the next rep is due, based on how well you do when studying the card/grading it accordingly. See "the spacing effect". Hence maximal retention in minimal time, an optimal scenario. ;p By the time you get to the 10000000th sentence, the 1st will rarely or effectively never show up and so on with the succession/precession of cards, depending on how quickly you add new cards (going back to the workflow/bottleneck/find your pace thing).

In the meantime you'll also be doing other cards and non-SRS Japanese learning, presumably, so in addition to internalizing those sentence patterns and memorizing semantic information, etc., you'll be learning the rest of the language through more and more usage/other resources, depending on what strategies you use.

The stated goal for myself and others, in varying degrees, is eventually the SRS will be a relatively minor supplement for, say, learning Japanese, as you progress you'll need it progressively less. Personally I imagine I'll always use the SRS for some reason or another, be it new languages or non-linguistic memorization.

Dairwolf Wrote:Ok, agreed on that. But does that mean that ´til the rest of my life I will have to spent 4 hours or so reviewing everyday in order to speak Japanese, assuming that you can speak Japanese after learning 10000 sentences?

You still seem to be missing the point of the SRS. If you haven't yet, please carefully read the content of the link Daiichi posted 12 posts back.

http://www.xamuel.com/spaced-repetition-systems/

Particularly:

Quote:A general rule of thumb is that on any particular day, the overwhelming majority of the cards scheduled for review in an SRS will be the cards you added most recently. Therefore, the amount of daily work is approximately equal to how many cards you’ve recently added. In particular, if you just need to memorize some finite amount of information with a definite end, like the capitals of all the nations of the world, it’ll be a lot of work for a short while and then rapidly dwindle down until it’s almost nothing.

Replace "the capitals of all the nations of the world" in that excerpt with "10000 sentences" and you have the answer to your question.

JimmySeal Wrote:http://www.xamuel.com/spaced-repetition-systems/

I can't decide whether the idea of using an SRS to arrange your music playlist is genius or lunacy :-)

I loved the "SRS are elite" part.

EratiK Wrote:I loved the "SRS are elite" part.

Elitism?! That's what led to Hitler's success. Must be a Japanese thing, they were in cahoots with Hitler. Ah ha! The name is 'Anki' (暗記), a Japanese word, sinisterly represented by primitives like 'dark' and 'snake'.

Ok, night´s over, I had some time to think about everything again and see it yet in a different light.

I definetely need to know whether I can reproduce something in order to have good results in the exams. So the direction I will be learning the sentences will be German -> Japanese.

Then again, I WANT to cram it, because it just feels better and I don´t have to feel guilty in regard to he exams and my grades. So I´ll divide it all into smaller decks, learn those decks until I need about 5 seconds to review every sentence (that IS possible, I know from experience).

The goal ultimately is the same as with the other approach of recognition: learn 10 000 sentences. I guess that it is a lot more time consuming and in comparison way more ineffective, but as long as I think it feels right, I can live with that. That also gives me the feeling that I can WORK towards my goal instead of just relying on a computer programme.

Would anyone say that some of my ideas are wrong? I´ll say it again with less words: different order of entries, much more time consuming, different "feeling", but still -> 10 000 sentences learned in the distant future.

@Dairwolf Well, to each their own. ;p

10k sentances is not anything particularly important. I have only 300 cards in my Spanish deck(so far) and over 7k cards in my Japanese deck, and I probably know more Spanish than Japanese.

The difference? Three years of Spanish classes with a teacher that was somewhat decent and massive exposure through novels, textbooks (about math and science, not Spanish), music, as well as the fact that practically 40% of my community is hispanic and speaks Spanish as a first language.

In Japanese I´ve really just piddled around with music, movies, comics, blogs, a few visual novels, and of course, ZE KANJIIIIIIS.

A larger amount of formal study might actually be detrimental.