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Cultural cringe in Japan?

#1
http://www.economist.com/node/14536817?s...d=14536817
http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2009/10/06...ud-nation/ (if you do not have a subscription to the Economist; it is Sankaku, so images NSFW).

So Australia, the traditional poster child for cultural cringe, now leads the world (or at least the 33 countries that were surveyed) in trust, admiration and pride for their country, while Japan is dead last. To those of you who live or have lived in Japan, do you notice any traces of cultural cringe there? Or is it because the Japanese are simply more restrained in expressing admiration for their country? To those who have been following the events in Japan for a long time, how recent do you think this is? Was the situation very different before the Lost Decades began? Has anyone ever met a Japanese person who explicitly said that he or she hates Japan and its culture, or considers it inferior to another culture?

I know this is a lot of questions, but the article kinda surprised me, and I have no access to primary sources on this, so any thoughts, guesses and anecdotes would be appreciated.
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#2
vonPeterhof Wrote:To those of you who live or have lived in Japan, do you notice any traces of cultural cringe there? Or is it because the Japanese are simply more restrained in expressing admiration for their country? To those who have been following the events in Japan for a long time, how recent do you think this is? Was the situation very different before the Lost Decades began? Has anyone ever met a Japanese person who explicitly said that he or she hates Japan and its culture, or considers it inferior to another culture?
This all started in August, 1945.
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#3
vonPeterhof Wrote:Has anyone ever met a Japanese person who explicitly said that he or she hates Japan and its culture, or considers it inferior to another culture?
My ex-boyfriend.

I think, unfortunately, being "international" is seen as really cool and stylish and Japan/Japanese things are seen as boring/old-fashioned/back-woodsy to a lot of Japanese people.
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#4
Actually probably started around 1842 but really kicked in in 1945 when Japan was occupied.
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#5
The Japanese were shocked by the outcome of the Opium War. It was a shocking event that the great China could be so easily defeated by the barbarian United Kingdom. The Shogunate was not exactly jolted into a sense of crisis until Perry showed up I think it's safe to say that the Opium war caused a big stir among the Samurai class in Japan because this is when they started having radical debates about the Sasoku system and forming loose alliances which would eventually lead to the Meiji Restoration. This whole period was driven by anxiety and insecurity.

Even after the industrialization of Japan, because of deep racism among the Western powers, Japan was never considered to be near equal to the West. Even though the Japanese had a lot of pride that they succeeded in modernizing their country, it was forever tempered with frustration and resentment.

Because modernization was equal to westernization, a whole variety of stresses were formed in the Japanese mind. The Japanese people are still trying to balance these out.

That is the foundation. Now add on the loss of WWII, the occupation, being subservient to the USA for 60 years, the rise of anti-militant and pacifist thought, the bubble, and finally China surpassing Japan in economic power.
Edited: 2010-10-04, 1:57 am
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#6
Womacks23 Wrote:The Japanese were shocked by the outcome of the Opium War. It was a shocking event that the great China could be so easily defeated by the barbarian United Kingdom. The Shogunate was not exactly jolted into a sense of crisis until Perry showed up I think it's safe to say that the Opium war caused a big stir among the Samurai class in Japan because this is when they started having radical debates about the Sasoku system and forming loose alliances which would eventually lead to the Meiji Restoration. This whole period was driven by anxiety and insecurity.

Even after the industrialization of Japan, because of deep racism among the Western powers, Japan was never considered to be near equal to the West. Even though the Japanese had a lot of pride that they succeeded in modernizing their country, it was forever tempered with frustration and resentment.

Because modernization was equal to westernization, a whole variety of stresses were formed in the Japanese mind. The Japanese people are still trying to balance these out.

That is the foundation. Now add on the loss of WWII, the occupation, being subservient to the USA for 60 years, the rise of anti-militant and pacifist thought, the bubble, and finally China surpassing Japan in economic power.
I think the Okinawans have a great sense of pride in who they are. Not pride in the entity "Japan", but pride in their own people. That's why they are so vocal and proud in their fight against the military occupation of their land.
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#7
vonPeterhof Wrote:Has anyone ever met a Japanese person who explicitly said that he or she hates Japan and its culture, or considers it inferior to another culture?
I've met quite a few Japanese who are openly embaressed by all the manga / anime / Hello Kitty cute side to their culture..
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#8
aphasiac Wrote:I've met quite a few Japanese who are openly embaressed by all the manga / anime / Hello Kitty cute side to their culture..
What's wrong with Hello Kitty? I've even pimped my laptop with Hello Kitty stickers..
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#9
paasan Wrote:
aphasiac Wrote:I've met quite a few Japanese who are openly embaressed by all the manga / anime / Hello Kitty cute side to their culture..
What's wrong with Hello Kitty? I've even pimped my laptop with Hello Kitty stickers..
I have hello kitty ice lollys in my freezer.. 200yen for 16.. yes please!.

So far, judging by the university students I've met, a lot seem to enjoy the whole cute culture thing, and manga/anime. Flag waving does go on, mostly in sports, they really got behind their country during the world cup for example.
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#10
Nationalism is a personality defect...
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#11
aphasiac Wrote:
vonPeterhof Wrote:Has anyone ever met a Japanese person who explicitly said that he or she hates Japan and its culture, or considers it inferior to another culture?
I've met quite a few Japanese who are openly embaressed by all the manga / anime / Hello Kitty cute side to their culture..
I wish that was the biggest thing I was embarrassed about with my culture. Sarah Palin was almost my vice-president. We invaded a country over nuclear weapons that only existed in Dick Cheney's imagination. Fox News is our #1 source for getting information. 61% percent of my fellow citizens think the world was created in six days.
Can any culture top that?
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#12
bodhisamaya Wrote:
aphasiac Wrote:
vonPeterhof Wrote:Has anyone ever met a Japanese person who explicitly said that he or she hates Japan and its culture, or considers it inferior to another culture?
I've met quite a few Japanese who are openly embaressed by all the manga / anime / Hello Kitty cute side to their culture..
I wish that was the biggest thing I was embarrassed about with my culture. Sarah Palin was almost my vice-president. We invaded a country over nuclear weapons that only existed in Dick Cheney's imagination. Fox News is our #1 source for getting information. 61% percent of my fellow citizens think the world was created in six days.
Can any culture top that?
We invented cricket.. and the spice girls..!
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#13
Gingerninja Wrote:
paasan Wrote:
aphasiac Wrote:I've met quite a few Japanese who are openly embaressed by all the manga / anime / Hello Kitty cute side to their culture..
What's wrong with Hello Kitty? I've even pimped my laptop with Hello Kitty stickers..
I have hello kitty ice lollys in my freezer.. 200yen for 16.. yes please!.
I got Hello Kitty ice lollies in my freezer too Big Grin

Though they taste awful, which is why they're still there.. ^_^
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#14
Gingerninja Wrote:
bodhisamaya Wrote:
aphasiac Wrote:I've met quite a few Japanese who are openly embaressed by all the manga / anime / Hello Kitty cute side to their culture..
I wish that was the biggest thing I was embarrassed about with my culture. Sarah Palin was almost my vice-president. We invaded a country over nuclear weapons that only existed in Dick Cheney's imagination. Fox News is our #1 source for getting information. 61% percent of my fellow citizens think the world was created in six days.
Can any culture top that?
We invented cricket.. and the spice girls..!
I got twins that starred in a movie together when they were kids to later become president & prime minister in the same term, liberals that increase taxes to satisfy socialistic demands and a military force that let 4 highest rank generals (navy, airforce, ground troops and something else) to die in the same plane crash.

Not to mention we went with USA to Iraq & Afghanistan on the same grounds as them, but at least they got to secure their business in this region (morally vague but its logical since they can profit from it), we just get a pat on the back....

Enduring a tentacle/manga/hello kitty here and there is nothing compared to what I'm exposed to on a daily basis.
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#15
paasan Wrote:
Gingerninja Wrote:
paasan Wrote:What's wrong with Hello Kitty? I've even pimped my laptop with Hello Kitty stickers..
I have hello kitty ice lollys in my freezer.. 200yen for 16.. yes please!.
I got Hello Kitty ice lollies in my freezer too Big Grin

Though they taste awful, which is why they're still there.. ^_^
send them down here! They stopped selling the similar ones I was buying at the local supermarket so I've had to look elsewhere. The grape ones aren't too bad..
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#16
Womacks23 Wrote:The Japanese were shocked by the outcome of the Opium War. It was a shocking event that the great China could be so easily defeated by the barbarian United Kingdom. The Shogunate was not exactly jolted into a sense of crisis until Perry showed up I think it's safe to say that the Opium war caused a big stir among the Samurai class in Japan because this is when they started having radical debates about the Sasoku system and forming loose alliances which would eventually lead to the Meiji Restoration. This whole period was driven by anxiety and insecurity.

Even after the industrialization of Japan, because of deep racism among the Western powers, Japan was never considered to be near equal to the West. Even though the Japanese had a lot of pride that they succeeded in modernizing their country, it was forever tempered with frustration and resentment.

Because modernization was equal to westernization, a whole variety of stresses were formed in the Japanese mind. The Japanese people are still trying to balance these out.

That is the foundation. Now add on the loss of WWII, the occupation, being subservient to the USA for 60 years, the rise of anti-militant and pacifist thought, the bubble, and finally China surpassing Japan in economic power.
I am still surprised that they placed so much lower than Germany, where, unlike in Japan, collective guilt was drilled into everyone's skulls for decades after the war. And here in Russia we like to think that Russia after Peter's reforms and Japan after the Meiji reforms tried to follow similar paths of balancing Eastern and Western customs, and that we got the balance all wrong, while they got it right. Looks like it is not that simple.

What about Japan during the Eighties, when Americans thought that the Japanese were going to take over the world? How did the Japanese themselves see their position in the world at the time? Was there any sort of resurgence in national pride?

bodhisamaya Wrote:Sarah Palin was almost my vice-president. We invaded a country over nuclear weapons that only existed in Dick Cheney's imagination. Fox News is our #1 source for getting information. 61% percent of my fellow citizens think the world was created in six days.
Can any culture top that?
54% of my fellow young Russians (aged from 16 to 19) believe that Stalin did more good than bad. I could write up hundreds of things I hate about Russia, but I do not want to turn this into a "My country sucks worse than yours" contest Smile.

Edit: Not a "New member" any more. Feels like I have accomplished something today. やった!
Edited: 2010-10-06, 3:47 pm
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#17
Jarvik7 Wrote:Nationalism is a personality defect...
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#18
^^ Ha, yeah. Anyone who makes an effort to tell me that they're "proud of their country" or words to that effect gets a wide berth. Congratulations, you were born between two lines on a map.

Side note: considering Australia's continued shameful treatment of its indigenous population (a gang of youths were recently convicted for beating an aboriginal man to death, the longest sentence was six years, the shortest twelve months), it would seem that they aren't actually as "proud" of their actual country as they claim to be.
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#19
I think the popular metanarrative about Japan is often an essentialized Western phenomenon that bleeds into a vocal minority in Japan, the other more ambiguous elements that might lend themselves to a lack of nationalism folded into the narrative, spun as further evidence for a specific view.

Similar dynamics explain the entirety of such surveys, methinks.

@harhol - Isn't Australia technically still a British colony? Aboriginal abuse then seems to affirm the persistence of the imperial strain. ;p
Edited: 2010-10-04, 12:51 pm
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#20
No, Australia is not a British colony, technically or any other way.
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#21
So I'll just start of saying I didn't read the article or most of the posts, but I definitely disagree with the statement that Japan is last in their cultural or national pride.

I have honestly never met a Japanese person, with the exception of just one, who didn't think that Japan was the best at everything. And when they didn't think Japan was the best at something, they thought said something was stupid.

I don't think it has anything to do with Japan being too reserved to talk about their pride either. Most Japanese I know openly say they are better as a race than Chinese or Koreans, and they take any opportunity to tell how great Japan is.

Now, sure most of them may be unhappy with the political situation, but this has nothing to do with culture. They are VERY proud of their culture. That's a fact.
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#22
OK, this is kinda off topic, and while i don't condone the beating to death of anyone, you did say "youths". Do you know what a typical jail term is for a youth in Australia who beats to death a white Australian? No? Then don't imply racism is a factor in the sentencing. We tend to have surprisingly lenient sentences for murder and assault in general, especially for minors. It's not something i agree with.

I think there are probably few countries that understand the difficulties of having a minority native population in an otherwise fully developed western country. I think Canada does quite a bit better than us; the US, no comment. It's a lot easier if you ethnically cleansed the problem away hundreds or thousands of years ago. The territory that is now England was once Celtic i believe. Anglo-Saxons are foreign invaders.

Any discussion of what's right is difficult when, objectively, we did effectively steal *all* the land that was once theirs. While i'm not saying "mind your own business", please understand that it's not as black and white as it may seem from the perspective of countries that haven't had to face these issues. You're not seeing the whole story.

Also, being proud to be a member of your culture doesn't imply blind nationalism. Australians also travel a lot. I don't think most Australians think we're superior. We like exploring other cultures and learning from them. Hell, Australian culture *is* a crazy mix of dozens of other cultures. I'm not sure what being proud of our "actual country" is supposed to mean. Aborigines are a tiny percentage of the population. The real Australia is Sydney, Melbourne, and a handful of other major cities.
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#23
onafarm Wrote:No, Australia is not a British colony, technically or any other way.
Pretty sure it is! Canada also.
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#24
chair Wrote:
Jarvik7 Wrote:Nationalism is a personality defect...
+1
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#25
@zigmonty

They weren't minors. They were adults aged 19-24. The fact that they were only tried for manslaughter tells its own story. A quick Google search turns up an article about a white-on-white killing by an actual minor in which the culprit was sentenced to fifteen years: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/...961208.htm. Maybe sentences aren't so lenient after all.

Australia still seems to be catching up with the rest of the Western (first) world in terms of white/black relations. I remember that recent controvery about a minstrel act on a comedy show, and there was that embarrassing KFC ad. In both cases white Australians not only defended the material but seemed unable to come to terms with why people might find it offensive.

Of course racism is a massive problem all over the world, it's just funny that a (fairly recently established) country of immigrants which has a history of brutalizing and generally mistreating its own indigenous population is apparently so proud of itself.
Edited: 2010-10-04, 6:30 pm
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