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Cultural cringe in Japan?

Interesting account....
chinajapan.org/articles/01.2/01.2.41-56ichiko.pdf
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Eto Shinkichi, the "dean" of Sino-Japanese studies in Japan, was one of the first scholars to go through the diaries and records left by those aboard the Senzaimaru (千歳丸) when it made its famous 1862 voyage to Shanghai, the first authorized Japanese trip to China in 223 years. He analyzes the travel accounts of three men in particular as a vehicle for assessing these early Japanese views of China. Takasugi Shinsaku, Notomi Kaijiro, and Hibino Teruhiro. These three chronicles were finally edited and published together after the war as Bunkyu ninen Shanhai nikki (文久二年上海日記).

Prior to this trip, the Japanese had little firsthand knowledge of China, save reports from merchants whose ships went astray and ended up in China or from books or Chinese residents in Nagasaki. There was, of course, secret trade along the Chinese coast, but no Japanese made a point of publishing an account of China based on contacts of this sort, because such a violation of the sasoku edict would have been sufficient to warrant ececution. By 1862, the Bakafu had had over two decades to assimilate, albeit in piecemeal fashion, China's fate after trying to withstand European penetration; and it was a handful of years following Commodore Perry's forced opening of Japan. The time was ripe for an investigative mission, with representatives from each of the domains, into business conditions in what was already reputed to be China's most
bustling port city. One must assume that the Japanese authorities somehow learned that Shanghai had already outstripped Canton as a center of international trade.

Eto concentrates on how these particular three men understood and tried to assimilate what they witnessed in China. He excludes from consideration the accounts each gave of the Taipings, because it has been dealt with by Ichiko Chuzo. Upon arrival in Shanghai, all three were immediately stunned by the tremendous prosperity, with countless ships in the harbor and countless merchants engaged in business. Apparently nothing prepared them for this experience, and it interestingly had a largely negative impact on all three.

Because these three men had all recieved Confucian educations, they were able to communicate with Chinese via the instrument of the "pen conversation" (筆談) through the medium of literary Chinese. Takasugi was the most critical of what he perceived in China and the most concerned about what it all meant for Japan. He saw Europeans swaggering about the streets as if they owned the country, while the Chinese seemed meekly to wander or cower in the shadows. Hibino thought the Chinese looked utterly ridiculous with their queues, and he expressed great sympathy for their poor masses. Notomi similarly wrote of rampant hunger, death, illness, and floating corpses in the Huangpu River. He well understood the toll that the Taiping Rebellion was exacting on poor Chinese peasants.

All three men, especially Takasugi, despised the presence of Christian missionaries in China. He lauded the valiant but unsuccessful efforts of Lin Zexu and others in expelling these foreign enemies from Chinese soil. He scoured the bookstores for a copy of Lin's collected writings, but without success. It was simply unbelievable for them to find China--"the country of unparalleled literature," according to Notomi, and "the country of ... Yao and Shun," according to Hibino--so thoroughly weak and apparently in fear
on the hated Westerners. How could China have declined to this state of decay?
Hibino answered this rhetorical question most clearly: the Chinese had erred by violating the admonitions of their sages and currying favor with the barbarians. The latter had fooled the Chinese people with their false faith and their drugs; their ultimate wish was to annex China, and thus it had been wrong to allow the opening of any ports other than Canton. Nor would the Taipings offer substantive relief of China's major problems, for they believed in the venomous "false faith" of the barbarians. Notomi offered a less logical, if ultimately more dispassionate, analysis of China's predicament. He felt badly that China was weak and poor, but he failed to explain why he thought that situation had come about.

Takasugi Shinsaku adopted a much more radical and much more practical line of attack. He saw countless foreign ships in the Shanghai harbor and went out and ordered a warship from the Dutch for his, native domain of Choshu. When he found t hat the writings of Wei Yuan were out of print in China and that the Chinese were not forcefully preparing to drive the foreigners out of their country, rather than derive from this a long analysis of the failures of the Chinese people, he extracted lessons for the future of Japan. Contemporary China became an enormous negative example for him. His only critique of the Chinese was for their failure to abandon ways that were proven failures and to adopt from the strengths of the enemy. Japan could not, in his opinion, maintain isolation, and he envisioned trade with Canton, Hong Kong, Shanghai, London, and Washington. The issue was no longer retaining Confucianism versus abandoning it; it was now East Asia versus a Western invasion.

chinajapan.org/articles/01.2/01.2.41-56ichiko.pdf
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Womacks23 Wrote:I didn't say that the Japanese people considered the Chinese to be "superior" to Japan in 1840.
Good. We've got a common ground. Now only the westerner part then.
Womacks23 Wrote:The English in the 1700s were not taking common (current) Italian or Greek expressions into their vocabulary.
I've looked at the English dictionary like a million times. And here is what that goddamn dictionary tells me.

Subject, Object, Affirmation, Negation, Reason and Art are Middle English. Which means they were imported from French and Latin between the late 11th century and the 15th century. "Concept" was imported from French in the 16th century.

Yeah it's not 1700's, but they just barely missed it, and they were definitely not 1500 year old dead words. Looking at the dictionary, It feels like more than half of the English words today were imported from French and Latin to Middle English, between 11th century and 15th century. They were imported from "common" French and Latin of the period. Even if I limit the period to after 1600,

Detail:17th cent.
franchise:18th
melodorama:19th
mess: 19th
meter:19th
negligee:18th
New wave 1970-1980 - Translation of nouvelle vague .
nonchalant:18th
pallete:18th
parachute:18th
parvenu:19th

These are just some examples of French words imported in English after 1600.
Womacks23 Wrote:Please correct me if I am wrong here but in general the Japanese didn't invent new Chinese words until after Meiji restoration.
火事、大根、立腹、介錯、芸者 for example, are what you call "Chinese" words that existed before the Meiji restoration. So I guess yeah, Japanese DID invent new "Chinese"(wink wink) words before 明治維新.

I may be getting too sleepy. If I stop posting, that means I have fallen asleep. Will pick up tomorrow.
Edited: 2010-10-08, 1:59 am
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This thread has actually gotten sillier than when it was an argument about whether or not nest0r is inappropriately disrespectful sometimes.
Edited: 2010-10-08, 2:09 am
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I keep hoping that one day learned experts of every field will just come in and pwn all of us who have ever argued any point of view.
Edited: 2010-10-08, 2:15 am
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I hate it when someone call me boring and am tempted to say something inappropriately disrespectful but I figure most people here don't appreciate that so I'll go to bed. おやすみ。
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masaman Wrote:I hate it when someone call me boring and am tempted to say something inappropriately disrespectful but I figure most people here don't appreciate that so I'll go to bed. おやすみ。
I doubt Tzadeck was insulting the content or spirit of your comments, though I can't speak for them.
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masaman Wrote:I've looked at the English dictionary like a million times. And here is what that goddamn dictionary tells me.
I was talking about Rome and Greece. Not France. France had an active influence on the UK in its development. That's obvious.

But Greece and Rome died out so the influence on the UK was one of historical value only. When the UK was developing into a nation there was no Roman empire next door, there was no Athenian Empire. There was only history and literature.

Japan is different. China never died out. Dynasties changed over the years but the civilization remained an ACTIVE influence on Japan the entire time. When the Japanese took the word 南蛮 no one in Japan had a debate about what to call Europeans. No one was searching through ancient Chinese dictionaries looking for words to use. They knew the Chinese called them 南蛮 so the Japanese used the exact same word in the exact same context the Chinese were using. The context was one of contempt. And it's quite clear that the majority of Japanese(and the Chinese they borrowed the term from) held on to this contempt for the western "barbarians" until views started to change after the Meiji restoration.
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nest0r Wrote:
masaman Wrote:I hate it when someone call me boring and am tempted to say something inappropriately disrespectful but I figure most people here don't appreciate that so I'll go to bed. おやすみ。
I doubt Tzadeck was insulting the content or spirit of your comments, though I can't speak for them.
Yeah, I didn't mean it like that.
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I think people who take the time to study history and make theses about it should maybe also be versed on historiography, sociology, etc. also. Most modern historians, except the pop ones or ones historicizing with an agenda, do a good job incorporating Hayden White's concerns, methinks. Especially Western scholars studying 'the East', also influenced I presume by Edward Said. Others, however, have problems and end up constructing simplistic theses that are shattered upon further dissection when challenged.

On a side note, @masaman

Here's some 'interesting' tidbits also:

"However, despite the conventional translation of such terms (especially 夷) as "barbarian", in fact it is possible to translate them simply as 'outsider' or 'stranger', with far less offensive cultural connotations." - Wikipedia on 'Barbarians'

China in Tokugawa Foreign Relations: The Tokugawa Bakufu’s Perception of and Attitudes toward Ming-Qing China

This looks cool, anyone read it before I check it out? The foundations of Japan's modernization: a comparison with China's path towards modernization
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nest0r Wrote:"However, despite the conventional translation of such terms (especially 夷) as "barbarian", in fact it is possible to translate them simply as 'outsider' or 'stranger', with far less offensive cultural connotations." - Wikipedia on 'Barbarians'
Civilized "us". Uncivilized "them". No offensive cultural connotations at all. Move along please.

The meaning of these words in Japan were far more clear.

"The term Nanban did not disappear from common usage until the Meiji restoration, when Japan decided to Westernize radically in order to better resist the West, and essentially stopped considering the West as fundamentally uncivilized. Words like Yōfu (洋風), lit. ocean style, and Obeifu (欧米風), lit. European American style replaced Nanban in most usages.

Still, the exact principle of westernization was Wakon-Yōsai (和魂洋才 Lit. Japanese spirit Western talent), implying that, although technology may be more advanced in the West, Japanese spirit is better than the West's. Hence though the West may be lacking, it has its strong point which takes the warrant out of calling it "barbarian.""
Edited: 2010-10-08, 12:26 pm
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Actually the Wikipedia quote underscores the shifting contextual nuance and ambiguity of the use of the term 'barbarian' as masaman pointed out -- the thoughts on Western scitech, Western/Chinese learning/status relations, views of 'barbarianism' and 'civilization' as pertaining to Japanese individuals' views of China, the West, other countries, etc. from what I see via skimming, as of the above 'Foundations... ' book link and Tokugawa article such as previously posted or here, this article (which in part stems from this book: http://books.google.com/books?id=XaK_xAYmbfsC) , this book (http://books.google.com/books?id=__VSPmKQ6_kC) or pretty much any book points to something far beyond the simplified 'Great China shockingly defeated by Barbarian West' narrative you've depicted.
Edited: 2010-10-08, 1:48 pm
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Womacks23 Wrote:"The English in the 1700s were not taking common (current) Italian or Greek expressions into their vocabulary. "
Here is a list of Italian words in English for you.
Womacks23 Wrote:"They took roots of languages that died 1,500 years earlier and created new words. This is very different from what the Japanese have done with Chinese."
When Japanese created the new Japanese 漢字 words, which you call Chinese words, to translate western ideas, they used ancient Chinese (and a bit of Japanese) grammar and pronunciation. They did NOT use the contemporary Chinese of the era. The phenomenon is actually very similar to the import of Latin words and creation of new Latin based vocabularies in Middle English.

Womacks23 Wrote:"Here is the record of just one Chinese ship in 1739. 13 books of medicine, 1 on botany, two on veterinarian arts, 15 literary and poetry works, 5 history, 6 classics, 5 dictionaries, 4 on politics, 2 on Chinese astrology, 17 books on local Chinese administration, and 15 local Chinese newspapers. "
So there were 70 books and 15 newspapers in a ship and so Japanese must have thought Qing was super advanced. mmm, not very convincing. The Chinese studies you refer to during Edo period is called 朱子学 and 朱子 is a Chinese person from the 12th century. I have never heard that the scholars of 朱子学 fervently learned things from Qing dynasty. As I said, the massive import of Chinese culture happened mostly before 鎌倉時代, before the 12th century. And as I said, 漢字 words Japanese created or re-invented to translate western words were based on ancient Chinese grammar and pronunciation, not the ones that were used in Qing or Yuan dynasty.
Womacks23 Wrote:"Japanese thirst for Chinese medicine was so great that it became common practice for Japanese to kidnap Chinese doctors."
Wow. Really? Under Sakoku Japan, where going out and into Japan was punished by death penalty, Japanese were going all the way to China, figuring out the addresses of Chinese doctors, kidnaping them and smuggling them back all the way to Japan? and It was a common practice?

I would like the source please?
Edited: 2010-10-08, 4:16 pm
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Womacks23 Wrote:""Eto Shinkichi, the "dean" of Sino-Japanese studies in Japan, was one of the first scholars to go through the diaries and records left by those aboard the Senzaimaru (千歳丸) when it made its famous 1862 voyage to Shanghai"

"It was simply unbelievable for them to find China--"the country of unparalleled literature," according to Notomi, and "the country of ... Yao and Shun," according to Hibino--so thoroughly weak and apparently in fear
on the hated Westerners. How could China have declined to this state of decay? Hibino answered this rhetorical question most clearly: the Chinese had erred by violating the admonitions of their sages and currying favor with the barbarians."
You know? that ship? 千歳丸? was a barque. She was a western ship.

Edo Bakufu bought it from British because Japanese shipbuilding technology was retarded due to the Sakoku policy that banned building of large ships. 千歳丸 was operated by a British captain and crew. One of the guys who went with that trip, 中牟田倉之助, spoke English, and had western style education from westerners.

Are you seriously saying these guys considered British as culturally retarded barbarians?

They were of course shocked to see Qing invaded and Chinese made second class citizens by the westerners. It seemed like Japan would be next and that was an accurate assessment of the situation. But thinking that Japanese people, at least the intelligent ones, back then casually thought "oh, British are just some nobody barbarians" is a vast underestimation to say the least.

All those "country of this and that" seems to be just mere rhetoric. The unparalleled literature they are talking about is of ancient Chinese, not Qing's. Yao and Shun are figures from 23rd century BC. I can't find the original Japanese wording of that "barbarian", but it is most likely 南蛮, to which I already pointed out how unrealistic it is to base your opinion for its Japanese usage in 1840 on its Chinese root from the 16th century. And even if it was not 南蛮, and they specifically said something more scornful, is it really that surprising? Everybody calls invaders something along the line with barbarians.
Edited: 2010-10-08, 4:22 pm
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Tzadeck Wrote:
nest0r Wrote:
masaman Wrote:I hate it when someone call me boring and am tempted to say something inappropriately disrespectful but I figure most people here don't appreciate that so I'll go to bed. おやすみ。
I doubt Tzadeck was insulting the content or spirit of your comments, though I can't speak for them.
Yeah, I didn't mean it like that.
Oops, I'm sorry, It seems like I was jumpy. And I often miss the insinuation...
Edited: 2010-10-08, 8:24 pm
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Womacks23 Wrote:Japan is different. China never died out. Dynasties changed over the years but the civilization remained an ACTIVE influence on Japan the entire time.
What's the difference between Roma Becoming Italy and 漢 becoming 元 and 清? For God's sake, 元 wasn't even Chinese. They were Mongolian. 清 was Manchu. The cultural disparity between 元 and 漢 can be broader than the one between Roma and Italy.
Womacks23 Wrote:When the Japanese took the word 南蛮 no one in Japan had a debate about what to call Europeans. No one was searching through ancient Chinese dictionaries looking for words to use.
Eh, how do you know??? The word 南蛮 dates back to BC.
Womacks23 Wrote:They knew the Chinese called them 南蛮 so the Japanese used the exact same word in the exact same context the Chinese were using.
Again, how do you know?
Womacks23 Wrote:The context was one of contempt. And it's quite clear that the majority of Japanese(and the Chinese they borrowed the term from) held on to this contempt for the western "barbarians" until views started to change after the Meiji restoration.
Again and again, how do you know? Wiki says otherwise and I don't feel "contempt" in the word 南蛮 either. It's just a quaint little word that has not very polite origin. It seems like you are really worked up with the fact your culture was refered with not a very nice 漢字. Your whole opinion is based on, and only on, the fact westerners were called 南蛮 and 蛮 is not a nice 漢字.

The Japanese dictionary 三省堂 大辞林 says 南蛮 is
Quote:1: An ancient Chinese disparaging word for southern non-Chinese ethnic groups.
2: A Japanese word for south east Asian countries such as Thai, Vietnam, Philippine. Used during Muromachi era and Edo era. Because Portuguese and Spanish came through these areas, it is also used for these countries and their colonies.
3: Used as a prefix for products, rare or strange things and foreign objects that came from areas described in 2:
It does not say it is a disparaging word in Japanese, and it says it is originally a word for south east Asia, and Portuguese and Spanish came from that area, so they become 南蛮人 in Japan. It is quite contrary to what you are saying. In fact, I ran 南蛮 with various Chinese dictionaries and none of them gave me "a disparaging word for westerners". They all say it is a word for southern non-chinese ethnic groups. Are you even sure this was used for westerners in China?
Edited: 2010-10-08, 7:11 pm
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The kidnapping or human-smuggling reference appears to come from this: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?a...id=1317143 (full here so you can search for 'kidnapping') - http://www.ari.nus.edu.sg/docs/wps/wps08_106.pdf - Except the author points to this (which isn't as simple as has been made out) as part of the limited and practically minded seeking of knowledge/their version of 実学 from China and the West (Do a search in the .pdf for "Interim Conclsion") -- the article, as the abstract and conclusions attest, alleges (like most of the articles and books posted here I think) that Japanese folks, hundreds of years prior to the Opium War, did not simply view China as superior and the West as inferior and actually viewed itself as equal and/or superior while seeking resources from wherever to further that ideal.
Edited: 2010-10-08, 4:53 pm
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shihoro Wrote:I am trying to learn alot from this debate. Not sure who is right. After my holiday am going to research it. My Japanese lodger who is an Chinese historian seems to concur with Womack but is giving it alot of thought.

But please, you keep going on about sources. Wiki is not reliable. Stop quoting it as a source.
Unfortunately, it's been 20 years since I graduated high school and I don't have the text books anymore. Well, actually I threw them a way the minute I graduated, so I didn't have them 19 years ago either Tongue I know Wiki is not a very good source, but this being not really a center of any political debate, I think it gives you a general idea of what the received wisdom is in Japan. And I've never presented it in a way "Wiki is saying this, so it must be true". For example, I don't believe the list of Italian words are unreliable just because it is on Wiki, and it can easily be verified. Also, it usually provides a link to the English version of the article (though the contents can be very different). If you think the content of the link is questionable, please point it out. I'll try to find more reliable source.
Edited: 2010-10-08, 9:36 pm
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shihoro Wrote:I am trying to learn alot from this debate. Not sure who is right. After my holiday am going to research it. My Japanese lodger who is an Chinese historian seems to concur with Womack but is giving it alot of thought.

But please, you keep going on about sources. Wiki is not reliable. Stop quoting it as a source.
Wikipedia is perfectly fine as scholarly resource when it cites its sources; even when it doesn't it's a great contemporaneous overview-gateway to information. The 'history/discussion' pages for Wiki entries are also useful resources. ;p

In this context, where in part the claims are being made about popular perception and a Japanese Mind™, as masaman suggests it's quite useful. In this sense especially, the usage of Wikipedia on the forum ought not be leveraged to claim hypocrisy about requests for more sources, for quantitative substance, when such requests are in response to a person making simple, authoritative, and qualitative statements about Japan/Japanese history.
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nest0r Wrote:The kidnapping or human-smuggling reference appears to come from this: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?a...id=1317143 (full here so you can search for 'kidnapping') - http://www.ari.nus.edu.sg/docs/wps/wps08_106.pdf - Except the author points to this (which isn't as simple as has been made out) as part of the limited and practically minded seeking of knowledge/their version of 実学 from China and the West (Do a search in the .pdf for "Interim Conclsion") -- the article, as the abstract and conclusions attest, alleges (like most of the articles and books posted here I think) that Japanese folks, hundreds of years prior to the Opium War, did not simply view China as superior and the West as inferior and actually viewed itself as equal and/or superior while seeking resources from wherever to further that ideal.
Yup. Kidnappings were common when Wakou 倭冦 (Japanese Pirates) were active from the 14th century to the early 17th century. I don't think they were common in Edo period. Even in the 16th century though, kidnappings that specifically targeted Chinese doctors being a common practice is not something I am aware of. The paper brings up 徐之遴 as an example of the kidnappings, but he seems to have been kidnapped randomly on sea.
http://www.the-miyanichi.co.jp/contents/...20&catid=5
Wakou of this period, 後期倭冦 from the 16th and 17th century, were mostly Chinese people too, despite their name.
Edited: 2010-10-08, 9:15 pm
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masaman Wrote:
nest0r Wrote:The kidnapping or human-smuggling reference appears to come from this: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?a...id=1317143 (full here so you can search for 'kidnapping') - http://www.ari.nus.edu.sg/docs/wps/wps08_106.pdf - Except the author points to this (which isn't as simple as has been made out) as part of the limited and practically minded seeking of knowledge/their version of 実学 from China and the West (Do a search in the .pdf for "Interim Conclsion") -- the article, as the abstract and conclusions attest, alleges (like most of the articles and books posted here I think) that Japanese folks, hundreds of years prior to the Opium War, did not simply view China as superior and the West as inferior and actually viewed itself as equal and/or superior while seeking resources from wherever to further that ideal.
Yup. Kidnappings were common when Wakou 倭冦(Japanese Pirates) were active from the 14th century to the early 17th century. I don't think they were common in Edo period. Even in the 16th century though, kidnappings that specifically targeted Chinese doctors being a common practice is not something I am aware of. The paper brings up 徐之遴 as an example of kidnapping, but he seems to have been kidnapped randomly on sea.
http://www.the-miyanichi.co.jp/contents/...20&catid=5
Wakou of this period, 後期倭冦, from the 16th and 17th century were mostly Chinese people too despite their name.
Insert geeky One Piece references here. Not me though, I hate the art for that series.

And by the way, even the article about the 3 scholars visiting Shanghai, posted before: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/se...ichiko.pdf paints a multifaceted view of predictions and responses about and to the Opium War, China, and English victory in line with the other sources cited in the thread that demonstrate a nuanced, organic, and long-standing practical awareness in Japanese figures. Certainly nothing about a barbarian-based shock at the Western ability to defeat the Great China, especially once you recontextualize the previous selective quoting in the thread back to the article.

But upon further re-reading I see masaman already tackled that quote in detail. ;p
Edited: 2010-10-08, 7:03 pm
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Anyone know anything about that survey, by the way? Far as I can tell, it only exists as a string of numbers posted by The Economist. The Reputation Institute could've made them up for all I know.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nat...5781843421

"The magazine does not reveal the sample size, survey date or methodology... "

This was a year ago in case anyone besides me missed it till just now.
Edited: 2010-10-08, 8:46 pm
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Every time I see this kind of research, I wonder. My Japanese friends treat their kids with the attitude like "my stupid kids", but I know they love them and can die for them any minute. American ones say "Oh my kids are so smart and they are the best!", and I'm like, yeah I know you love them and can die for them any minute so stop talking about them. They probably love their kids as much.

From my very limited experiences with them, Australians are very straight forward to the point some of them can be perceived naive and/or racist. I like people who are straight forward though, and this is merely my prejudice.

Sorry, don't know anything about the survey Tongue
Edited: 2010-10-08, 9:09 pm
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masaman Wrote:What's the difference between Roma Becoming Italy and 漢 becoming 元 and 清? For God's sake, 元 wasn't even Chinese. They were Mongolian. 清 was Manchu. The cultural disparity between 元 and 漢 can be broader than the one between Roma and Italy.
Japanese writers at the time regularly referred to China at the time as 中華 implying a straight connection between what we consider historical China and what they consider to be the Qing.
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Womacks23 Wrote:
masaman Wrote:What's the difference between Roma Becoming Italy and 漢 becoming 元 and 清? For God's sake, 元 wasn't even Chinese. They were Mongolian. 清 was Manchu. The cultural disparity between 元 and 漢 can be broader than the one between Roma and Italy.
Japanese writers at the time regularly referred to China at the time as 中華 implying a straight connection between what we consider historical China and what they consider to be the Qing.
English writers regularly referred to Rome as Rome I believe?

You went on and on and on about 南蛮. Went so far to say
Womacks23 Wrote:When the Japanese took the word 南蛮 no one in Japan had a debate about what to call Europeans. No one was searching through ancient Chinese dictionaries looking for words to use.They knew the Chinese called them 南蛮 so the Japanese used the exact same word in the exact same context the Chinese were using.

The context was one of contempt. And it's quite clear that the majority of Japanese(and the Chinese they borrowed the term from) held on to this contempt for the western "barbarians" until views started to change after the Meiji restoration.
Was there ANY support for this claim? Was 南蛮 actually used in the 16th century China as a mockery to westerners? None of the dictionaries, Japanese and Chinese, says it was. I'm sorry and it seems to bug some people but I really have to ask what the source of your opinion is. It is really contradicting with my education and the commonsense I acquired growing up in Japan, so I'm just curious.
Edited: 2010-10-08, 9:51 pm
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masaman Wrote:Are you seriously saying these guys considered British as culturally retarded barbarians?
I didn't say anything, that article is a book review of Eto Shinkichi who complied the diaries of various people who were a part of the mission.

But look at the dates there. This is 20 years after the Opium war and 9 years after Perry's visit.

I am trying to hint at Japanese thoughts of China and the UK at the time of the Opium war. 1862 is not the time of the Opium war BUT it is the first time Japanese had been to China since the 17th century so their reactions are important because they shed light on their thoughts of China. But the fact that they came over in a British ship 20 years after technological superiority was demonstrated is irrelevant.

And 中牟田倉之助 was 3 years old when the Opium war happened and he got his western education AFTER the times we are talking about.

And yes in 1842 the Japanese did consider the British to be nobody barbarians. Only after the Opium war and the Meiji restoration did they change this view.
Edited: 2010-10-08, 9:50 pm
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