Well, it's getting more like a "You act like this", "No, YOU act like that" kind of arguing rather than a "The fact is this. The source is here" kind of debate, so it may be a bad idea to jump in, but Womacks seems to have read quite a bit on the matter and brought up a couple of interesting points and I can't resist, so here we go.

Regarding the "mainstream" thing, I would like to know what papers you are referring to, Womacks. 産経 and 朝日 are both very popular papers and they often have op-eds that are polar opposite, especially on the matters like national pride and historical views. For example, 産経 is often very critical about the mere existence of the massacre of Nanjing, while 朝日 is a huge advocate of the incident. And Hitler contributing to the 高度成長? I don't think I've seen it on either papers. That's hardly mainstream even among the conspiracy theorists.

I think "we all know Japanese people will go on and on all day about how great green tea and onsens are" is a good observation and "The Japanese were shocked by the outcome of the Opium War" is a pretty accurate statement. But "It was a shocking event that the great China could be so easily defeated by the barbarian United Kingdom" made me raise my eyebrows. "The great" China and "The barbarian" UK? that seems like a not-so-mainstream personal sentiment. On what ground do you think Japanese people, now or back then, considered China "the great" and UK "the barbarian", Womacks?

nest0r Wrote:I think you feel that way because I have basically the same respect for you that I have for IceCream,

Actually, I don't really remember you being rude to me. Though, insults often do go over my head. Do you really feel that there are those who are not equal to you? It is kind of an alien concept to me. Most of the world is, of course, either more or less knowledgeable than I am, but I can't imagine viewing anyone as unequal to me in any way. I have high respect for those who are kind and educated, but understand there are circumstances I can't know as to why others are not. So I don't feel that lack of respect is justified towards anyone. It seems like a lonely way to go through life viewing others from such a perch.

masaman Wrote:Well, it's getting more like a "You act like this", "No, YOU act like that" kind of arguing rather than a "The fact is this. The source is here" kind of debate, so it may be a bad idea to jump in, but Womacks seems to have read quite a bit on the matter and brought up a couple of interesting points and I can't resist, so here we go.

Regarding the "mainstream" thing, I would like to know what papers you are referring to, Womacks. 産経 and 朝日 are both very popular papers and they often have op-eds that are polar opposite, especially on the matters like national pride and historical views. For example, 産経 is often very critical about the mere existence of the massacre of Nanjing, while 朝日 is a huge advocate of the incident. And Hitler contributing to the 高度成長? I don't think I've seen it on either papers. That's hardly mainstream even among the conspiracy theorists.

I think "we all know Japanese people will go on and on all day about how great green tea and onsens are" is a good observation and "The Japanese were shocked by the outcome of the Opium War" is a pretty accurate statement. But "It was a shocking event that the great China could be so easily defeated by the barbarian United Kingdom" made me raise my eyebrows. "The great" China and "The barbarian" UK? that seems like a not-so-mainstream personal sentiment. On what ground do you think Japanese people, now or back then, considered China "the great" and UK "the barbarian", Womacks?

No no, you're just supposed to say "This is fact."

I was just reading this article by the way: http://www.japanprobe.com/2010/10/07/mar...-in-japan/

@bodhi - I don't see much in my comments that require me to explain my entire worldview/view of people based on your secondhand essentialization of my previous words, but I'll suggest I'm not a complete relativist when it comes to evaluating the multiplicity of elements that comprise the entities we through various media encounter and engage with at given moments of time or periods of time.

So, forum drama, huh? Fascinating. (ΘεΘ;)

Also, the girl with the Chihuahua scares me.

masaman Wrote:Regarding the "mainstream" thing, I would like to know what papers you are referring to, Womacks. 産経 and 朝日 are both very popular papers and they often have op-eds that are polar opposite, especially on the matters like national pride and historical views. For example, 産経 is often very critical about the mere existence of the massacre of Nanjing, while 朝日 is a huge advocate of the incident. And Hitler contributing to the 高度成長? I don't think I've seen it on either papers. That's hardly mainstream even among the conspiracy theorists.

I read 読売 and 朝日. I know they have differences about specific events and political leanings but from my readings I feel they both use a basic attribute of a shared culture to define the nation. It's like they have roughly the same idea of what it means to be Japanese. With various differences on the edges.

And I wasn't 100% serious about the Hitler thing BTW. Maybe only 70% serious. The connection is touched on in recent book about the history of the Mantetsu company. The title is 満鉄全史 if you are interested. Just something to think about.

masaman Wrote:"Great" China and "barbarian" UK? that's seems like a not-so-mainstream personal sentiment. On what ground do you think Japanese people, now or back then, considered China "the great" and UK "the barbarian", Womacks?

At the time of the Opium war. Everything that was not Chinese nor Japanese was 'barbarian'.

Both the Japanese and Chinese called all Europeans '南蛮' meaning barbarians from the south. Why south? Because European colonialists first colonised the South Pacific and then came to China and Japan from their various southern colonies.

The term goes back at least to the 13th century Yuan dynasty (the Mongols). In modern Chinese, '南蛮' is pronounced nanman and this was the name of the lowest class among the four divisions of China's population, as defined during the Yuan dynasty. The four classes were

1. The Mongols
2. Central Asian Peoples
3. Han Chinese
4. Southern Chinese Barbarians. Basically the anti-mongol Southern Song people.

The word had roots in insult and ridicule.

Later when Europeans appeared, Chinese writers dug up the term and used it to refer to Portuguese and Spanish merchants who traded with Chinese from their bases in Macao and Manilla. The Chinese apparently did not come to think of the Europeans as people from the 'west' until the 19th century, when Chinese began to learn more about Europe after the Opium War.

And nanban was just one word of many used to refer to Europeans. Loufan, white ghosts, hairy-beasts, heathen, red-headed monsters, etc. etc. are just some of the other disparaging references in common use. Also remember that Chinese Confucianism recognized no states but only one civilization surrounded by barbarian and tributary entities.

Now about 'great China'. The intellectual elite of Japan before the late 20th century were generally well educated in the Chinese classics and history and recognized and respected the roots of their own culture. It was only after the Opium War and later Meiji restoration that the elite of Japan looked to the west as a source of knowledge. (excepting some gradual rangaku studies).

Since they placed so much value on Chinese studies and the fact that the majority of their culture originates there I'm just making a leap to the conclusion that they considered China to be a 'great' country and Britian to be a 'barbarian' country.

nest0r Wrote:No no, you're just supposed to say "This is fact."

Nah, that's not fun.

nest0r Wrote:I was just reading this article by the way: http://www.japanprobe.com/2010/10/07/mar...-in-japan/

Quote:Mark MacKinnon (born 1974) is a Canadian journalist, currently the Beijing bureau chief

Sure, a Beijing bureau chief, I knew it for some reason even before I googled him...

Mcjon01 Wrote:Also, the girl with the Chihuahua scares me.

Yeah, but the girl with the frappuccino is hot

Womacks23 Wrote:I feel they both use a basic attribute of a shared culture to define the nation.

To some extent. I agree. But,

Womacks23 Wrote:And I wasn't 100% serious about the Hitler thing BTW. Maybe only 70% serious. The connection is touched on in recent book about the history of the Mantetsu company. The title is 満鉄全史 if you are interested. Just something to think about.

Dude, a connection between Hitler and the Japanese post war economic growth? And you believe in it 70%? Bring it down to 7%. I say less than 3% is the "majority" way of thinking. 満鉄 had 140 thousand people working there. Of course some of them ended up in the government. My grand father worked in a military factory during the war. That doesn't mean his success after the war was due to the Emperor.

Womacks23 Wrote:At the time of the Opium war. Everything that was not Chinese nor Japanese was 'barbarian'"

I would like the basis for that notion. I of course know the term 南蛮. And British were not 南蛮. Japanese called Spanish and Portuguese 南蛮. Northern people like British and Dutch were called 紅毛 = Red hair. Japanese banned Spanish and Portuguese for the fear of them invading Japan by first using the Catholic missionaries as recon like they did in South America and South Asia. Dutch were Protestant who seemed to be less invasive so they choose to deal only with them. Japanese were fully aware the westerners had advanced technology and tried to import as much technology as they could, even the word 南蛮 became a "cool" word despite its Chinese origin 500 years before that.
On the other hand, as you know, Japanese have been using ”漢”字. Not "清"字 or "元"字 or "宗"字 or whatever. 漢 is a dynasty that collapsed in the 3rd century. Back then, yes, you are right. 漢 was THE great 漢. And Japan sent students to the succeeding dynasties such as 随 and 唐. But in the 8th century they stopped sending students there because they decided there weren't things to learn that worth going all the way over there anymore. This is around the time 聖徳太子 was said to have sent a letter to the Chinese Emperor saying he was a deputy of the emperor of ”日出ずる処” = the country of the rising sun, and the Chinese Emperor was the emperor of "日没する所" = the country of sunset. Now 聖徳太子 is most likely a fictitious character but this letter is recorded in the Chinese archives so there must have been a guy who was haughty enough to send it to the Chinese Empire even back then. Now you are talking about the dynasty 1000 years after that, 清, which race wasn't even Chinese (they were Manchus. 元, the preceding dynasty, by the way was Mongolian). Saying Japanese treated them like "The Great China" is like saying the British treated Italy "The Great Roman". 清 was a huge country still, and its defeat was shocking I'm sure, but it was rather pragmatic imo.

Yes, Japanese place so much value on the ancient Chinese culture exactly like any western culture places so much value on Archimedes and Pythagoras.

masaman Wrote:Dude, A connection between Hitler and the Japanese post war economic growth? And you believe in it 70%? Bring it down to 7%. I say less than 3% is the "majority" way of thinking. 満鉄 had 140 thousand people working there. Of course some of them ended up in the government. My grand father worked in a military factory during the war. That doesn't mean his success after the war was due to the Emperor.

Please read the origional post again and note how I'm just calling it a conspiracy theory and posted it in jest. But it could be interesting to read some books on the subject. What if your grandfater was a top manager in Mantetsu.... Went to Nazi Germany to study their economic policies and enacted those policies when he returned to Manchuria... Then, after the war, your grandfather and most of his fellow managers from Mantetsu are placed in top positions in MITI where they proceed to enact the exact same economic policies learned from Nazi Germany......btw just a consipracy theory.

Womacks23 Wrote:At the time of the Opium war. Everything that was not Chinese nor Japanese was 'barbarian'"

masaman Wrote:I would like the basis for that notion. I of course know the term 南蛮. And British were not 南蛮. Japanese called Spanish and Portuguese 南蛮. Northern people like British and Dutch were called 紅毛 = Red hair. Japanese banned Spanish and Portuguese for the fear of them invading Japan by first using the Catholic missionaries as recon like they did in South America and South Asia. Dutch were Protestant who seemed to be less invasive so they choose to deal only with them. Japanese were fully aware the westerners had advanced technology and tried to import as much technology as they could, even the word 南蛮 became a "cool" word despite its Chinese origin 500 years before that.

The words 南蛮 and 紅毛 were interchangable. Japanese Wikipedia - また、（南蛮同様）西洋一般に意味が広がることもあったが、オランダ由来の物品も南蛮と呼ばれる事が多く、用語自体があまり広まらなかった。

BTW The first three Tokugawa shogun pursued isolationist policies because of their suspicion of Rome as competitor to Edo for political allegiance of various Japanese daimyo. Not exactly fear of invasion. That of course is a much bigger subject and debatable at another time.

masaman Wrote:On the other hand, as you know, Japanese have been using ”漢”字. Not "清"字 or "元"字 or "宗"字 or whatever. 漢 is a dynasty that collapsed in the 3rd century. Back then, yes, you are right. 漢 was THE great 漢. And Japan sent students to the succeeding dynasties such as 随 and 唐. But in the 8th century they stopped sending students there because they decided there weren't things to learn that worth going all the way over there anymore. This is around the time 聖徳太子 was said to have sent a letter to the Chinese Emperor saying he was a deputy of the emperor of ”日出ずる処” = the country of the rising sun, and the Chinese Emperor was the emperor of "日没する所" = the country of sunset. Now 聖徳太子 is most likely a fictitious character but this letter is recorded in the Chinese archives and it is probably a fact. Now you are talking about the dynasty 1000 years after that, 清, which race wasn't even Chinese (they were 満州人. 元, the preceding dynasty, by the way was mongolian). Saying Japanese treated them like "The Great China" is like saying the British treated Italy "The Great Roman". 清 was a huge country still, and its defeat was shocking I'm sure, but it was rather pragmatic imo. "

As you know. One reason why Japanese have some many readings for different kanji is because they were introduced to Japan during multiple dynasties. This kept happening up until the 1800s. It happened because China had always been the dominant power (culturally, politically, economic) in the region. This is why the Japanese borrowed Chinese terms for Europeans instead of creating their own. Because the influence was so large.

Japan continued their missions to China during the Ming dynasty. In fact the Japanese again cut off the relationship because competition for the legitimizing favor (and gold) from mid-Heaven was so destabilizing. Competing tribute missions from various bakufu and warlords simultaneously claiming to represent Japan were one feature (and an important cause) of internal warfare in Japan at the time.

So basically, in the 1840s, Japan did not view China as some kind of inferior country like they viewed the western nations. When China lost the Opium War to the British it was an absolutly shocking event that accelerated the view that the Japanese...as Fukuzawa said ...should escape from Asia(meaning China) and modernize.

masaman Wrote:Yes, Japanese place so much value on the ancient Chinese culture exactly like any western culture places so much value on Archimedes and Pythagoras.

The sheer amount of cultural influence that continued up until the 1800s after the fall of Zhou says otherwise.

Womacks23 Wrote:Please read the origional post again and note how I'm just calling it a conspiracy theory and posted it in jest.

I know. I thought It was a jest then you started saying you were 70% serious... If you are 70% serious, that's not a jest, is it?

Womacks23 Wrote:But it could be interesting to read some books on the subject. What if your grandfater was a top manager in Mantetsu....

That would be cool. But it's still just a conspiracy theory. Japanese people in the era went everywhere. Mostly Germany, France and Britain. I'm not surprised some of them, especially near the war, went to Germany. How many non-English western 外来語 do you think Japanese have from the pre-war period?
http://eigo.be/expressions/katakana.htm

Womacks23 Wrote:The words 南蛮 and 紅毛 were interchangable. Japanese Wikipedia - また、（南蛮同様）西洋一般に意味が広がることもあったが、オランダ由来の物品も南蛮と呼ばれる事が多く、用語自体があまり広まらなかった。

It's just Wiki, but I don't see it saying they are interchangeable. It just says the word didn't become very popular. And you can see everything I said under the entry for 南蛮 .
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/南蛮

人に対する蔑称であった「南蛮」が、侮蔑語というよりは、異国風で物珍しい文物を指す語として使われるようになった。

南蛮と同類の言葉に紅毛があり、南欧系の南蛮に対し、北欧系のイギリス人やオランダ人を意味した。

Womacks2 Wrote:As you know. One reason why Japanese have some many readings for different kanji is because they were introduced to Japan during multiple dynasties.

That's ONE reason. Yes.

Womacks2 Wrote:This kept happening up until the 1800s. It happened because China had always been the dominant power (culturally, politically, economic) in the region.

There are 呉音、漢音 and 唐音. 清 would be in 唐音 category but I don't think its influence was even remotely as strong as French influence was to English.

Womacks2 Wrote:This is why the Japanese borrowed Chinese terms for Europeans instead of creating their own. Because the influence was so large.

I don't get it. What words are you specifically talking about ? Japanese used Kanji and ancient obsolete Chinese words to translate European ideas. Just because they were not ひらがな, the Japanese scholars' effort is credited to Chinese? That isn't fair, don't you think?
http://www.catv296.ne.jp/~t-homma/dd040912.htm

New scientific and technical terms are often in Latin and Greek based even in the states. Are you saying it is because U.S.A. is under strong influence of Italy and Greece? I mean in a way she is, but I don't think that's what you are meaning.

Womacks2 Wrote:Japan continued their missions to China during the Ming dynasty. In fact the Japanese again cut off the relationship because competition for the legitimizing favor (and gold) from mid-Heaven was so destabilizing. Competing tribute missions from various bakufu and warlords simultaneously claiming to represent Japan were one feature (and an important cause) of internal warfare in Japan at the time.

Again. I don't understand. Specifically what 幕府 are you talking about and what incidents are you referring to by "competition for the legitimizing favor (and gold) from mid-Heaven"? I don't suppose Japanese ever used the word "mid-Heaven".

Womacks2 Wrote:In the 1840s Japan did not view China as some kind of inferior country like they viewed the western nations.

What is the basis for this? As I understand it, Japan recognized advanced western technologies and that's why she had 出島 to import them during 江戸 period.

Womacks2 Wrote:When China lost the Opium War to the British it was an absolutly shocking event that accelerated the view that the Japanese...as Fukuzawa said ...escape from Asia.

福沢諭吉's 脱亜論 was published in 1885, 18 years AFTER the 明治維新. Opium War was in 江戸時代, 1840. I agree with this one though. It must have been a "shocking" event. It's just barbarian and great China etc. sound very weird to me.

Womacks2 Wrote:The sheer amount of cultural influence that continued up until the 1800s after the fall of Zhou says otherwise.

I would like to see the examples of this. Of course, China is next to Japan so there were influences, but I don't think it even had as much influence as French had on Britain, if you are talking about after 鎌倉 period. Is this something you've read? What author said this? Because I think this is really contradictory to the views that the "majority" of Japanese people have.

masaman Wrote:But it could be interesting to read some books on the subject. What if your grandfater was a top manager in Mantetsu....

I don't really want to debate this much longer but remember that the economic development of Manchuria was specifically and deliberately modeled after Nazi German economic policies. Now lets leave it at that.

Womacks23 Wrote:The words 南蛮 and 紅毛 were interchangable. Japanese Wikipedia - また、（南蛮同様）西洋一般に意味が広がることもあったが、オランダ由来の物品も南蛮と呼ばれる事が多く、用語自体があまり広まらなかった。

masaman Wrote:It's just Wiki, but I don't see it saying they are interchangeable. It just says the word didn't become very popular. And you can see everything I said under the entry for 南蛮 .
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/南蛮

I'm not sure if I understand the point here, even if they called them specifically red-headed barbarians they are still calling them "barbarians"...And I mentioned they were called red heads too...."And nanban was just one word of many used to refer to Europeans. Loufan, white ghosts, hairy-beasts, heathen, red-headed monsters, etc. etc. are just some of the other disparaging references in common use."

Anyway back on track here.

（南蛮同様）西洋一般に意味が広がることもあったが

Are you missing the part where it says that nanban became synonymous with western civilization? The English entry on the subject gives more information.

Usages of the word "Nanban"

The term Nanban did not disappear from common usage until the Meiji restoration, when Japan decided to Westernize radically in order to better resist the West, and essentially stopped considering the West as fundamentally uncivilized. Words like Yōfu (洋風), lit. ocean style, and Obeifu (欧米風), lit. European American style replaced Nanban in most usages.

Still, the exact principle of westernization was Wakon-Yōsai (和魂洋才 Lit. Japanese spirit Western talent), implying that, although technology may be more advanced in the West, Japanese spirit is better than the West's. Hence though the West may be lacking, it has its strong point which takes the warrant out of calling it "barbarian."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanban_trade

masaman Wrote:I don't get it. What words are you specifically talking about ? Japanese used Kanji and ancient obsolete Chinese words to translate European ideas. Just because they were not ひらがな, the Japanese scholars' effort is credited to Chinese? That isn't fair, don't you think?
http://www.catv296.ne.jp/~t-homma/dd040912.htm

I am specifically referring to 南蛮. When Europeans arrived in Japan the Japanese used existing Chinese words to describe them. This is just evidence of the cultural influence of China on Japan.

Interesting that you bring up Kanji imported to China. None of that happened until after the opium war and the Meiji Revolution. After Japanese intellectuals considered the center of learning to have shifted from China to Europe. People such as 西　周 in particular created a new set of written Kanji words through translations of European cultures, in particular, philosophy, such words as 哲学, 主観, 客観, 概念, 命題, 肯定, 否定, 理性, 悟性, 現象, 芸術, and 技術. I find it interesting because note that the translation was from one set of foreign (European) words to another set of foreign (Chinese) words and then finally into Japanese. Woa getting way off track here.

masaman Wrote:Again. I don't understand. Specifically what 幕府 are you talking about and what incidents are you referring to by "competition for the legitimizing favor (and gold) from mid-Heaven"? I don't suppose Japanese ever used the word "mid-Heaven".

Uh, Sengoku jidai. There are too many incidents to list here. One of the most famous might be the Ningpo Incident (寧波の乱). Any book detailing the period will go into detail on competing trade/tribute relations with Ming China. Also you will probably find more information in books about the wako (倭寇).

masaman Wrote:What is the basis for this? As I understand it, Japan recognized advanced western technologies and that's why she had 出島 to import them during 江戸 period.

Maybe the basis is the fact that only 2 ships were allowed to dock in Dejima each year. That represents maybe 1% of the international trade in Dejima. The other 99% being with China of course.

masaman Wrote:福沢諭吉's 脱亜論 was published in 1885, 18 years AFTER the 明治維新. Opium War was in 江戸時代, 1840. I agree with this one though. It must have been a "shocking" event. It's just barbarian and great China etc. sound very weird to me.

Just referencing the work as an example of the political thought that was partially born out of the Opium War.

Maybe "great China" is debatable. Especially considering neo-Confucianism and Toyotomi Hideyoshi's views. But consider that China in 1840 was well known to the Japanese. They extensively studied the Chinese language, history, and politics. The Japanese did not study Britain. The UK was an unknown "barbarian" (their words) nation and all knowledge of it came from Dutch sources.

So I will like to edit my original statement. The Japanese were shocked by the outcome of the Opium war. That strong and familiar China could be so devastatingly defeated by the little known barbarian UK.

@Mcjon101

I disagree. It is not scary in the slightest.

Womacks23 Wrote:"remember that the economic development of Manchuria was specifically and deliberately modeled after Nazi German economic policies. Now lets leave it at that."

Wait, that's not fair. Let me say my part and then let's leave it. hehe. The received wisdom is that Manchuria's development was modeled after the Soviet Union.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/満州国の経済 ソ連型の計画経済を指向した
The name of its development plan, "満州産業開発5カ年計画", which seems to be named after Soviet Union's ５カ年計画(Five-Year Plans), concurs with it as well. There was also a plan to create an autonomous region of Jewish people in Manchuria (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/河豚計画) which I believe directory collides with the Nazi policy.

Womacks23 Wrote:"And nanban was just one word of many used to refer to Europeans. Loufan, white ghosts, hairy-beasts, heathen, red-headed monsters, etc. etc. are just some of the other disparaging references in common use."

It makes me wonder why you bring up a bunch of CHINESE words from the 16th century while we are talking about Japanese culture in the 19th century. China and Japan have completely different cultures. If I said, hypothetically, "German were called Barbarians in Latin in the 16th century so British, who use a language highly influenced by Latin, must have considered Germany an inferior country in 1840", I don't think you would find it a viable argument. It shouldn't be different when it comes to Chinese and Japanese. What is impotent is how the word is actually perceived by the users. The word "barbarian" has a Greek root and in ancient Greek it means "foreigner". But how we are using it today doesn't have much to do with how ancient Greeks used the term. And by the time of Opium War, 南蛮　became something described as "侮蔑語というよりは、異国風で物珍しい文物を指す語".

Womacks23 Wrote:"和魂洋才… implying that, although technology may be more advanced in the West, Japanese spirit is better than the West's"

Why so? Isn't it natural to want to keep one's own culture? And when it comes to "sprit", is it a bad thing to think that way? It's like some collage American footballers saying "Let's show our CSU(Colorado State University) spirit is better than CU (University of Colorado) spirit." It sounds like healthy competitiveness to me. It is of course, depending on the context though.

Womacks23 Wrote:"I am specifically referring to 南蛮. When Europeans arrived in Japan the Japanese used existing Chinese words to describe them. This is just evidence of the cultural influence of China on Japan. "
"such words as 哲学, 主観, 客観, 概念, 命題, 肯定, 否定, 理性, 悟性, 現象, 芸術, and 技術. I find it interesting because note that the translation was from one set of foreign (European) words to another set of foreign (Chinese) words and then finally into Japanese."

Let's take a look at the English counterparts of all these words and their roots.

哲学 Philosophy: Latin/Greek.
主観 Subject: French/Latin.
客観 Object: Latin.
概念 Concept: Latin.
命題 Proposition:French/Latin.
肯定 Affirmation: Latin.
否定 Negation: Latin.
理性 Reason: French/Latin.
悟性 Understanding: Frisian/Middle High German.
現象 Phenomenon: Latin/Greek
芸術 Art:French/Latin.
技術 Technology: Greek

Woa! Only "Understand" is Germanic, which is what English language is. There are a lot of words that British have coined using Latin too.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/words_with...lish.shtml
Does this mean British people in 1840 considered Italy, France and Greece superior to Britain? I don't think so.

Womacks23 Wrote:"Any book detailing the period will go into detail on competing trade/tribute relations with Ming China. Also you will probably find more information in books about the wako (倭寇). "

The "competing of legitimacy" you are referring to seems like the one between Hosokawa 細川 family and Ouchi 大内 family in the 16th century. Or it could be the one during Nanbokucho era (南北朝時代) about 150 years earlier, but either way they both happened and ceased in a timeframe of a decade. Unlike you said, The Shogunate, Muromachi Bakufu (室町幕府), did not cease the trade with Ming because of its destabilizing nature (who said this???). It was because the trade took, although purely nominal, the style of tributary and the Shogun found it disgraceful.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/日明貿易 "足利義持や前管領の斯波義将らは朝貢形式に不満を持ち、1411年（応永18年）貿易を一時停止する"
At least this is how Japanese people learn it and I believe is the "majority" view. Competition for the trade with Ming dynasty being the cause of the start of the internal warfares (Sengoku era) is unheard of. It is generally considered that the war called 応仁の乱 started it.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/応仁の乱

Womacks23 Wrote:"Maybe the basis is the fact that only 2 ships were allowed to dock in Dejima each year. That represents maybe 1% of the international trade in Dejima. The other 99% being with China of course. "

Nope. According to the decree in 1715, the transactions were limited to 3000 Kan (Silver) for the Dutch and 6000 Kan for the Chinese. Only twice as much.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/海舶互市新例
Moreover, even in Sengoku era (戦国時代 1467-1573) and Azutsi Momoyama era (安土桃山時代 1573-1600), Warlords (大名) were all over the trade with the West (南蛮貿易) in order, partly, to get guns. Japan arguably had more guns (some say 500,000) than any other country in the world in the 16th century and many of them came from the west. Oda Nobunaga (織田信長) who finally dominated the Sengoku era, and his successor Toyotomi Hideyoshi (豊臣秀吉), both wore a peace of plate armor (the body part) from the West and encouraged the trade with the westerners. Speaking of 豊臣秀吉, he tried to invade Ming China, surpassed their army with the help of guns, but died during the war.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/文禄・慶長の役
All this was at least 250 years before 1840, and these facts are pretty contradictory to "Big daddy China and barbarian Westerners" view you have presented.

Womacks23 Wrote:So I will like to edit my original statement. The Japanese were shocked by the outcome of the Opium war. That strong and familiar China could be so devastatingly defeated by the little known barbarian UK.

I totally agree that it was shocking and the China was a big power. And it is fair to say Japanese underestimated British military power up until this. But I don't think these Japanese guys were dumb enough to think British "barbarian" in 1840... They knew better than that.

[Katsuo]

Report on how countries rate themselves and others:
Web page
pdf file (more detailed) download

A quick glance at the ratings suggests that South Koreans have a more positive view of Japan than the Japanese do themselves. However, few Japanese rate their own country negatively, and in fact Japan comes top in "No-comment".

masaman Wrote:Wait, that's not fair. Let me say my part and then let's leave it. hehe. The received wisdom is that Manchuria's development was modeled after the Soviet Union.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/満州国の経済 ソ連型の計画経済を指向した
The name of its development plan, "満州産業開発5カ年計画", which seems to be named after Soviet Union's ５カ年計画(Five-Year Plans), concurs with it as well. There was also a plan to create an autonomous region of Jewish people in Manchuria (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/河豚計画) which I believe directory collides with the Nazi policy.

Their model was the Vierjahresplan. The Japanese economic planners at the time were fiercely anti soviet. There were even debates at the time to change the name of their plan from 5 year to match the German 4 year plan so the Japanese public wouldn't think they were emulating the Soviet Union.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Comintern_Pact

You need to read more detailed books on the subject than wikipedia.

And copying economic policies does not mean copying their social policies like treatment of the Jews. Though their treatment of the Chinese was not so far from that.

Womacks23 Wrote:

masaman Wrote:Wait, that's not fair. Let me say my part and then let's leave it. hehe. The received wisdom is that Manchuria's development was modeled after the Soviet Union.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/満州国の経済 ソ連型の計画経済を指向した
The name of its development plan, "満州産業開発5カ年計画", which seems to be named after Soviet Union's ５カ年計画(Five-Year Plans), concurs with it as well. There was also a plan to create an autonomous region of Jewish people in Manchuria (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/河豚計画) which I believe directory collides with the Nazi policy.

Their model was the Vierjahresplan. The Japanese economic planners at the time were fiercely anti soviet. There were even debates at the time to change the name of their plan from 5 year to match the German 4 year plan so the Japanese public wouldn't think they were emulating the Soviet Union.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Comintern_Pact

You need to read more detailed books on the subject than wikipedia.

And copying economic policies does not mean copying their social policies like treatment of the Jews. Though their treatment of the Chinese was not so far from that.

I'm not surprised that there was a "debate". Russians weren't really an ally and Germans were. But it seems like it was not changed. I admit, I have no idea how "exactly" the Manchuria's economic policy was. And it may have been something similar to Nati German's policy. But again, "the received wisdom" in Japan is that it was modeled after the Soviet Union's, and when it comes to national pride, it is the "social policy" that matters. Nobody thinks they owe Hitler when they get on board an airplane with jet engines just because Messerschmitt Me 262 was developed under Nati germany. Nobody cares it was Hitler who gave the directive to develop Volkswagen either.

And, as you repeatedly ask/insinuate that I and other people "need to read" this and that, please keep in mind that I had 12 years of formal education in Japan that included Japanese history classes, and although my BA is nothing to do with Japanese history, it is still in International Culture.

Katsuo Wrote:Report on how countries rate themselves and others:
Web page
pdf file (more detailed) download

A quick glance at the ratings suggests that South Koreans have a more positive view of Japan than the Japanese do themselves. However, few Japanese rate their own country negatively, and in fact Japan comes top in "No-comment".

who the hell where the 17% that had a positive view of North Korea?

masaman Wrote:The "competing of legitimacy" you are referring to seems like the one between Hosokawa 細川 family and Ouchi 大内 family in the 16th century. Or it could be the one during Nanbokucho era (南北朝時代) about 150 years earlier, but either way they both happened and ceased in a timeframe of a decade. Unlike you said, The Shogunate, Muromachi Bakufu (室町幕府), did not cease the trade with Ming because of its destabilizing nature (who said this???). It was because the trade took, although purely nominal, the style of tributary and the Shogun found it disgraceful.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/日明貿易 "足利義持や前管領の斯波義将らは朝貢形式に不満を持ち、1411年（応永18年）貿易を一時停止する"
At least this is how Japanese people learn it and I believe is the "majority" view. Competition for the trade with Ming dynasty being the cause of the start of the internal warfares (Sengoku era) is unheard of. It is generally considered that the war called 応仁の乱 started it.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/応仁の乱

I never said nor implied that it was the sole cause of the Sengoku era.

"Competing tribute missions from various bakufu and warlords simultaneously claiming to represent Japan were one feature (and an important cause) of internal warfare in Japan at the time."

1411 is not the specific time I am referring to. Go ahead another hundred years. You have to remember the economic situation in Japan at the time. Japan did not have it's own standard currency before Toyotomi Hideyoshi unified Japan, even then Chinese coins were dominant well into the 1700s. (Just another influence of China on Japan. They even had to use their money. It was only natural, Qing China had the world's largest economy up until 1875)

Tribute-trade with Japan had been banned by the Ming court because of warfare between separate tribute missions sent by the rival sides in the Onin War. Among other instances of attempted Japanese courting of the Ming by various Japanese entities...Trade was continued illegally by armed smugglers (again with various degrees of official backing from various entities in Japan) who were eventually shut down completely by the Tokugawa Shogunate because of the massive instability it caused and the fact that Japan had discovered a lot of copper and silver deposits of their own allowing them to make their own currency.

masaman Wrote:Nope. According to the decree in 1715, the transactions were limited to 3000 Kan (Silver) for the Dutch and 6000 Kan for the Chinese. Only twice as much.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/海舶互市新例

And how did these trade limits change over time?

Womacks23 Wrote:I never said nor implied that it was the sole cause of the Sengoku era.

I know. I never said you did. But you made it sound like it was the main cause of it, which isn't compatible with the mainstream Japanese historians' view at all.

Womacks23 Wrote:Go ahead another hundred years. You have to remember the economic situation in Japan at the time. Japan did not have it's own standard currency before Toyotomi Hideyoshi unified Japan, even then Chinese coins were dominant well into the 1700s.

Yes, Japan imported Chinese coins. And, later, 清 imported Japanese swords (google 倭刀). Most of the people you refer to as "armed smugglers" (後期倭冦 I believe?) were actually Chinese. And they imported mostly things like silk to Japan. Not really technological marvels, but more like commodities.

Womacks23 Wrote:Tribute-trade with Japan had been banned by the Ming court because of warfare between separate tribute missions sent by the rival sides in the Onin War.

Like you said, that's AFTER the Onin war, after Sengoku era had started. You said it was "ceased" by the Japanese side. And You said that the competition for the trade with Ming China was the reason it was ceased because it was too destabilizing. That's just not true. Or at least that's not what the mainstream Japanese historians are saying.

Womacks23 Wrote:

masaman Wrote:Nope. According to the decree in 1715, the transactions were limited to 3000 Kan (Silver) for the Dutch and 6000 Kan for the Chinese. Only twice as much.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/海舶互市新例

And how did these trade limits change over time?

You mean after 1715? I don't know, but there is no reason to believe it went up like crazy. Plus, even if it did, importing a lot of silk from China doesn't mean that the country is under "strong influence" of China. U.S.A. is under "strong influence" of Chinese today if that is so, which is true in a sense but we are talking about "cultural" influence I believe?

@masaman Thanks for your efforts in this thread, I imagine many have found this exchange enlightening.

Although, how could you possibly hope to understand the Modern Japanese Mind as Created by an Editorialized Narrative of History™ simply by having grown up in Japan?

nest0r Wrote:@masaman Thanks for your efforts in this thread, I imagine many have found this exchange enlightening.

Although, how could you possibly hope to understand the Modern Japanese Mind as Created by an Editorialized Narrative of History™ simply by having grown up in Japan?

I imagine little people are actually reading my humongous posts, thanks for reading, hehe.

I don't know if I understand you correctly, and I could be totally off, but the answer may be that I am also a modern Japanese mind as created by an editorialized narrative of history (by the majority historians)? After all, I got so many hours of history classes and read many books that touched on the topic one way or another. 勘合貿易 (The trade with Ming dynasty by 室町幕府) for example is something everybody learns in high school and I know what the "majority" view of it is, and when I hear something like "The competition for the trade with Ming was a driving factor in the collapse of 室町幕府", something inside my head rings a bell and says "something is not right". I wasn't really trying to appear like "Oh I know more than you!" or anything, it's just I was told that I "should read this and that" a couple of times so I wanted to show that I'm not ignorant of the matter.

Does this answer your question? or am I not making sense?

masaman Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:@masaman Thanks for your efforts in this thread, I imagine many have found this exchange enlightening.

Although, how could you possibly hope to understand the Modern Japanese Mind as Created by an Editorialized Narrative of History™ simply by having grown up in Japan?

I imagine little people are actually reading my humongous posts, thanks for reading, hehe.

I don't know if I understand you correctly, and I could be totally off, but the answer may be that I am also a modern Japanese mind as created by an editorialized narrative of history (by the majority historians)? After all, I got so many hours of history classes and read many books that touched on the topic one way or another. 勘合貿易 (The trade with Ming dynasty by 室町幕府) for example is something everybody learns in high school and I know what the "majority" view of it is, and when I hear something like "The competition for the trade with Ming was a driving factor in the collapse of 室町幕府", something inside my head rings a bell and says "something is not right". I wasn't really trying to appear like "Oh I know more than you!" or anything, it's just I was told that I "should read this and that" a couple of times so I wanted to show that I'm not ignorant of the matter.

Does this answer your question? or am I not making sense?

Yes--well, I wasn't really asking, I was making fun of Womacks23 again. Don't let me drag down the thread again though. ;p Move along people, nothing to see here.

masaman Wrote:哲学 Philosophy: Latin/Greek.
主観 Subject: French/Latin.
客観 Object: Latin.
概念 Concept: Latin.
命題 Proposition:French/Latin.
肯定 Affirmation: Latin.
否定 Negation: Latin.
理性 Reason: French/Latin.
悟性 Understanding: Frisian/Middle High German.
現象 Phenomenon: Latin/Greek
芸術 Art:French/Latin.
技術 Technology: Greek

Woa! Only "Understand" is Germanic, which is what English language is. There are a lot of words that British have coined using Latin too.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/words_with...lish.shtml
Does this mean British people in 1840 considered Italy, France and Greece superior to Britain? I don't think so.

I didn't say that the Japanese people considered the Chinese to be "superior" to Japan in 1840.

In the 1500s when they took the word 南蛮 they took it in the same context as the Chinese were using it....at that time.

All those words that we listed were created after the Meiji restoration. Please correct me if I am wrong here but in general the Japanese didn't invent new Chinese words until after Meiji restoration. Every-time they needed a new word before this period they deferred to the words the Chinese were using.

The English in the 1700s were not taking common (current) Italian or Greek expressions into their vocabulary. They took roots of languages that died 1,500 years earlier and created new words. This is very different from what the Japanese have done with Chinese.

masaman Wrote:

Womacks23 Wrote:

masaman Wrote:Nope. According to the decree in 1715, the transactions were limited to 3000 Kan (Silver) for the Dutch and 6000 Kan for the Chinese. Only twice as much.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/海舶互市新例

And how did these trade limits change over time?

You mean after 1715? I don't know, but there is no reason to believe it went up like crazy. Plus, even if it did, importing a lot of silk from China doesn't mean that the country is under "strong influence" of China. U.S.A. is under "strong influence" of Chinese today if that is so, which is true in a sense but we are talking about "cultural" influence I believe?

The Japanese did not only want silk from the Chinese. They also wanted books. Lots of books. Details about the Chinese government and administration were highly sought after. Qing books like the 大清會典 and 古今圖書集成 were imported and studied by the Japanese.

Here is the record of just one Chinese ship in 1739. 13 books of medicine, 1 on botany, two on veterinarian arts, 15 literary and poetry works, 5 history, 6 classics, 5 dictionaries, 4 on politics, 2 on Chinese astrology, 17 books on local Chinese administration, and 15 local Chinese newspapers.

Japanese thirst for Chinese medicine was so great that it became common practice for Japanese to kidnap Chinese doctors.

And lets not forgetting smuggling. On the Chinese side the authorities in Zhejiang captured and executed 33 smugglers, in December, 1728 alone. They were trying to smuggle books on martial arts, bows, archery trainers, horses, monks, doctors, medicine, and maps. This is one month in a typical year. (Books on Chinese martial arts were banned from export)

Now I guess we will go into a Rangaku vs Chinese studies debate. This whole thread is getting way off track. Let me conclude my arguments.

I believe China was viewed as a more advanced nation than Britain in 1840s Japan. The British were largely unknown to the Japanese and the only knowledge they were able to learn about them was from limited Dutch sources. The Japanese had a direct (though limited) line to the Chinese. They knew and understood China in ways they couldn't possibly begin to understand the UK (can we agree on this?). They considered the UK to be a "barbarian" nation. The Japanese did not stop considering the UK to be a barbarian nation until after the Meiji restoration.

There is a reason why the Opium war was so shocking to the Japanese. If they had the view that China was not a great country and Britain was not a "barbarian" country then the Chinese defeat would not have been shocking to them.