nest0r Wrote:

onafarm Wrote:No, Australia is not a British colony, technically or any other way.

Pretty sure it is! Canada also.

Pretty sure it's not (are you an Australian? If not, why are you arguing with us?). We actually have zero legal ties to the British. The only link is that our sovereign (the Queen of Australia) is presently the same person as the UK's sovereign. This position is a figurehead only in both countries. And it is actually not even a legal requirement that they be the same person. We are both members of the Commonwealth, but that has no legal standing. Canada i think may still have closer ties, but still in name only.

We haven't been a "colony" since the 1800s.

harhol Wrote:@zigmonty

They weren't minors. They were adults aged 19-24. The fact that they were only tried for manslaughter tells its own story. A quick Google search turns up an article about a white-on-white killing by an actual minor in which the culprit was sentenced to fifteen years: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/...961208.htm. Maybe sentences aren't so lenient after all.

So you have 2 cases where the sentences are different. Quick question, were they in the same state? We're a bit like the US, criminal law varies by state. Some are more lenient than others. And the circumstance of the case, mental stability of those involved etc are big factors in sentencing. I've never seen any statistics pointing to systematic leniency with regard to attacks on aborigines. Can't say i've looked into it much though.

harhol Wrote:Australia still seems to be catching up with the rest of the Western (first) world in terms of white/black relations. I remember that recent controvery about a minstrel act on a comedy show, and there was that embarrassing KFC ad. In both cases white Australians not only defended the material but seemed unable to come to terms with why people might find it offensive.

Of course racism is a massive problem all over the world, it's just funny that a (fairly recently established) country of immigrants which has a history of brutalizing and generally mistreating its own indigenous population is apparently so proud of itself.

Wow, just, wow. Seriously. I think it's hilarious you even phrase it in terms of "white/black" relations. Aborigines aren't even black in the African sense of the word (many, especially from southern areas, are quite light skinned). The history is totally different too. Aborigines are the native inhabitants, African Americans were imported slaves. Aborigines have far more in common with Inuit and Native Americans than they do to Africans (well, unless you're talking about countries like South Africa or Zimbabwe).

@zigmonty, My bad, I'll rephrase my comment lest anyone get confused: It's not that Australia is still technically a British colony, it's that it's nominally a Commonwealth realm under the British queen. I mean, the 'Australian' queen, *wink wink*. Ditto for Canada. In that sense, discrimination against Aboriginals is a vestige of British empire. A kind of neocolonialism.

nest0r Wrote:@zigmonty, My bad, I'll rephrase my comment lest anyone get confused: It's not that Australia is still technically a British colony, it's that it's nominally a Commonwealth realm under the British queen. I mean, the 'Australian' queen, *wink wink*. Ditto for Canada. In that sense, discrimination against Aboriginals is a vestige of British empire. A kind of neocolonialism.

Well, we're living in a country built on stolen land... But us giving it back to its rightful owners isn't a viable option. There's a long history of cultural differences between traditional aboriginal ways and western ways that are really not so easy to resolve (western law and order vs tribal punishment is a big sticking point, for example). What has tended to happen is many Aborigines have stayed in rural areas. Many live in aboriginal communities that have woeful living standards and poor levels of education.

There is a long history of distrust among aborigines and paternalistic attitudes among non-aborigines. Any attempt to "fix" things seems to make the divide deeper. Policies that in hindsight were utterly deplorable were often enacted with the best intentions. Both hands off and interventionist strategies have been tried, with varying levels of failure. Due to the fact that most Australians live in cities, far away from the problems, many of us simply don't understand the problems aborigines face and have no clue how to alleviate them.

Most of what non-Australians see in the news are symptoms of the problem, not the problem itself. It's not as clear cut as Australians=Racists.

Ryuujin27 Wrote:So I'll just start of saying I didn't read the article or most of the posts, but I definitely disagree with the statement that Japan is last in their cultural or national pride.

I have honestly never met a Japanese person, with the exception of just one, who didn't think that Japan was the best at everything. And when they didn't think Japan was the best at something, they thought said something was stupid.

I don't think it has anything to do with Japan being too reserved to talk about their pride either. Most Japanese I know openly say they are better as a race than Chinese or Koreans, and they take any opportunity to tell how great Japan is.

Now, sure most of them may be unhappy with the political situation, but this has nothing to do with culture. They are VERY proud of their culture. That's a fact.

It seems you're hanging out with very different Japanese people than me, although I get where you're coming from. I've never heard a Japanese person compare themselves as being better than Koreans or Chinese. However, I've often heard people make sly jabs at Koreans (The opposite direction is worse--I visited Korea and taught a class with my friend who is a teacher there, and the students were trying to explain to me why Korean culture is better than Japanese culture, and that I should quit my job in Japan and come to Korea), while usually phrasing it in such a way to make it as neutral as possible.

There is certainly a lot or pride for the Japanese. Whenever any Japanese person does anything famous in any other country, most people in Japan are super-excited about it. You would think that Ichiro and Matsui were the only two baseball players in America if you lived here long enough.

But, overall, Japan has a pretty refreshing level of national pride vs. national criticism compared to almost any other country I've been to. Nationalism sucks, and the less there is the better.

Ryuujin27 Wrote:Most Japanese I know openly say they are better as a race than Chinese or Koreans, and they take any opportunity to tell how great Japan is.

Wow, you should run for your life from these people. They probably think 鬼畜米英 too. They'll capture you and enslave you

zigmonty Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:

onafarm Wrote:No, Australia is not a British colony, technically or any other way.

Pretty sure it is! Canada also.

Pretty sure it's not (are you an Australian? If not, why are you arguing with us?). We actually have zero legal ties to the British. The only link is that our sovereign (the Queen of Australia) is presently the same person as the UK's sovereign. This position is a figurehead only in both countries. And it is actually not even a legal requirement that they be the same person. We are both members of the Commonwealth, but that has no legal standing. Canada i think may still have closer ties, but still in name only.

We haven't been a "colony" since the 1800s.

Technically Australia was ruled by the Brits up until 1986, that's when appeals to the Privy Council were abolished. Before then you could take your case all the way to Britain to be heard by the law lords. So up until then Australian law was being created by England. Some people, probably yourself included, think that ties were cut in 1901 with federation. Personally I think it's been a gradual disconnection which probably continued up past WWII. Australia went to war in 1914 because we were, in all but name, Brits. In WWII the sentiment was still there too. After WWII Australia's slowly been taking its own place and people would think it weird for an Australian to consider themselves "British" today.

zigmonty Wrote:Well, we're living in a country built on stolen land... But us giving it back to its rightful owners isn't a viable option. There's a long history of cultural differences between traditional aboriginal ways and western ways that are really not so easy to resolve (western law and order vs tribal punishment is a big sticking point, for example). What has tended to happen is many Aborigines have stayed in rural areas. Many live in aboriginal communities that have woeful living standards and poor levels of education.

There is a long history of distrust among aborigines and paternalistic attitudes among non-aborigines. Any attempt to "fix" things seems to make the divide deeper. Policies that in hindsight were utterly deplorable were often enacted with the best intentions. Both hands off and interventionist strategies have been tried, with varying levels of failure. Due to the fact that most Australians live in cities, far away from the problems, many of us simply don't understand the problems aborigines face and have no clue how to alleviate them.

Most of what non-Australians see in the news are symptoms of the problem, not the problem itself. It's not as clear cut as Australians=Racists.

This is a good description of the situation. I always cringe at the international media's coverage of it as it usually as shallow as "Australians = racist". Convenient, cheap reporting. People that are really interested should read some of the works of Noel Pearson, an aboriginal lawyer that takes a pretty realistic view on things.

With regard to Japan, I think one of the key elements with most Japanese is that they are "proud of things that are Japanese" but don't really care about the country or politics as a whole. So they're proud to introduce you to sushi or some other crazy food, proud to tell you about the seasons and cherry blossoms, but would never go around waving the Hi no Maru yelling "Japan Number 1!"

zigmonty Wrote:It's a lot easier if you ethnically cleansed the problem away hundreds or thousands of years ago.

I believe new problems and lines of division would be made up in order to justify more hate, discrimination, and killing.

It happens so often I'm beginning to think it is a part of human nature.

As for my experience,

I work in a junior high school and high school out here. Most of the teachers I come across seem to want to boast and brag about how great the Japanese school system is. They've got every kid in some form of extra cirricular activity and school lunches for everybody. If you try to mention something that might not be so great about their system i.e. the fact that teachers have no power and the kids can get away with murder with a slap on the wrist they try to play it off as no big deal.

As for people I meet outside of school, it really varies. Some people might be willing to have a laugh at some parts of the culture, while others can be really defensive.

One time, I was recounting a story that an older Japanese gentleman told me in regards to how Japan invents nothing new and original, just improved versions of pre-existing products. He had a really interesting take on it and so I asked what my friend what she thought about it. Big mistake. She got really offended and thought I was attacking her country. I made sure never to bring something that might be taken as critical up again.

Moreover, I think many Japanese might be critical of their own country but they don't want to show this to foreigners as it might be taken as a weakness.

I also work in Junior High Schools in Japan.

I have noticed when it comes to a lot of the topics in which Japan is traditionally at odds with other parts of the world (history with china/asia, whaling etc), a lot of Japanese people have a tendency to either dismiss criticism as baseless Japan bashing or propaganda, or have almost no opinion. I have no doubt there is plenty of baseless Japan bashing propaganda coming from other parts of the world (especially Asia) but there is also truth underlying it.

I also feel a lot of Japanese people have a surprisingly low level of general knowledge about the rest of the world. It's often said that Japanese think of Japan as more unique than the rest of the world but I think the reality is that many simply assume every country is because they aren't aware of the commonalities.

bucko Wrote:Technically Australia was ruled by the Brits up until 1986, that's when appeals to the Privy Council were abolished. Before then you could take your case all the way to Britain to be heard by the law lords. So up until then Australian law was being created by England. Some people, probably yourself included, think that ties were cut in 1901 with federation.

Nah, i'm aware of the Privy council. That was the top of the court system though, and it was rather rare (and expensive) to take cases as far as the Privy council. It was a vestige that should have been eliminated far earlier but for whatever reason wasn't. The Australian parliament has been the sole body capable of enacting legislation for far longer (Statute of Westminster, passed in Australia in 1942). Prior to that, both parliaments were technically capable of enacting legislation for Australia, although i believe it was rare for the british parliament to exercise that right even then.

I mark the end of the colonial days with Federation (1901). Australia itself was never a colony: the states were (yes, i know, pedantic). With federation, the separate colonies became states, with a federal government capable of independently enacting legislation (but not exclusively...). At that point we were effectively independent. The british had various theoretical vestigial powers that took decades to formally eliminate (mostly because no one really cared i think). At some point we'll probably ditch the monarchy too.

Anyway, this is all very off topic.

All the japanese people i've meet seem proud to be japanese. Maybe i'm just not meeting the dissenters, but i personally have trouble believing the survey results. Where are all these people ashamed to be japanese?

It's not that they are not proud to be Japanese. Because we all know Japanese people will go on and on all day about how great green tea and onsens are....They are just not proud of the modern nation called Japan.

On a side note. I've found.. mostly amongst students at least (being one myself and interacting with a lot) you can tell very quickly if they've studied abroad for any length of time. They act differently and their world view isn't as narrowed on Japan. It's not that they're overly proud (some are) just I don't think they get as much education on other nations, oddly enough.. it was my high school education that brought to Japan to my interest in the first place.

Random obs..

The survey asked participants how much trust, admiration and pride they felt for their country.

So it's not just about whether you think your country and its cultural traditions are better than other countries and their cultural traditions.

"Trust" is rather vague. Trusting the current government?

dusmar84 Wrote:As for people I meet outside of school, it really varies. Some people might be willing to have a laugh at some parts of the culture, while others can be really defensive.

One time, I was recounting a story that an older Japanese gentleman told me in regards to how Japan invents nothing new and original, just improved versions of pre-existing products. He had a really interesting take on it and so I asked what my friend what she thought about it. Big mistake. She got really offended and thought I was attacking her country. I made sure never to bring something that might be taken as critical up again.

But... this is kinda true with most people for anything.
Just ask Christians about abortion or going to church every Sunday. You'll get different answers depending on how liberal they are..

Womacks23 Wrote:It's not that they are not proud to be Japanese. Because we all know Japanese people will go on and on all day about how great green tea and onsens are....They are just not proud of the modern nation called Japan.

Is Womacks23 trolling or something? I'll have to go through their posts to see if they've said anything that isn't negative and authoritatively overgeneralized.

Someone needs to move to gaijinpot, methinks. ;p

Womacks23 Wrote:It's not that they are not proud to be Japanese. Because we all know Japanese people will go on and on all day about how great green tea and onsens are....They are just not proud of the modern nation called Japan.

Why the hell wouldn't you be proud of the modern nation called Japan?! They built it from ashes to global dominance in what, 40 years? I mean sure there are problems, all countries have problems, but in the scheme of things they've done all right. Japan is a role model through much of asia (even if many don't want to admit it) and has taught the west more than a few things too. No one makes cars the way Ford made cars in the 20s.

Is it just uncool these days to be proud of your country? When did pride for what your country has collectively accomplished equate to blind nationalism and racial superiority complexes?

zigmonty Wrote:

Womacks23 Wrote:It's not that they are not proud to be Japanese. Because we all know Japanese people will go on and on all day about how great green tea and onsens are....They are just not proud of the modern nation called Japan.

Why the hell wouldn't you be proud of the modern nation called Japan?! They built it from ashes to global dominance in what, 40 years? I mean sure there are problems, all countries have problems, but in the scheme of things they've done all right. Japan is a role model through much of asia (even if many don't want to admit it) and has taught the west more than a few things too. No one makes cars the way Ford made cars in the 20s.

Is it just uncool these days to be proud of your country? When did pride for what your country has collectively accomplished equate to blind nationalism and racial superiority complexes?

The most basic problem is the incompatibility of western and eastern thought.

Compounding this fundamental problem is the trauma of losing WWII, being occupied by and subservient to a superior western power for 60 years, the dominance of antimilitary/ antipatriotic thought in society, economic stagnation for the last 20 years, pitiful record in international sports, and the rise of china as the dominant power in Asia.

nest0r Wrote:

Womacks23 Wrote:It's not that they are not proud to be Japanese. Because we all know Japanese people will go on and on all day about how great green tea and onsens are....They are just not proud of the modern nation called Japan.

Is Womacks23 trolling or something? I'll have to go through their posts to see if they've said anything that isn't negative and authoritatively overgeneralized.

Someone needs to move to gaijinpot, methinks. ;p

LOL

You should ignore my posts if you don't like them. Or I don't know, maybe actually contribute to the thread here instead of posting off topic nonsense.

Womacks23 Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:

Womacks23 Wrote:It's not that they are not proud to be Japanese. Because we all know Japanese people will go on and on all day about how great green tea and onsens are....They are just not proud of the modern nation called Japan.

Is Womacks23 trolling or something? I'll have to go through their posts to see if they've said anything that isn't negative and authoritatively overgeneralized.

Someone needs to move to gaijinpot, methinks. ;p

LOL

You should ignore my posts if you don't like them. Or I don't know, maybe actually contribute to the thread here instead of posting off topic nonsense.

I often ignore ignorance, it depends on the level of self-deceiving authoritativeness someone such as yourself invests in their posts. In such cases, mockery ensues for at least a time. Your comments are the kind of blanket pet theory axioms an old WASP expatriate would make at Gaijinpot, or very derivative of it. I'm sorry that you feel you're 'contributing' anything at all. I doubt you'd find many here who agree with you, but I don't know, maybe I'm wrong? ;p I am but a humble observer.

Most of the opinions I here from Japanese people are very pessimistic about the current state and possibilities of a better future. Maybe it is just the Japanese way of always downplaying one's own ability, or maybe it's just that the people I meet are studying English and so admire foreign cultures in general.

Either way, it is much more realistic than the patriotic "Proud to be an American" B.S. I would hear from flag waving (made in China) hillbillies back home. "I would die for my country"... but I will not part with a buck to buy something made by Americans.

zigmonty Wrote:Is it just uncool these days to be proud of your country? When did pride for what your country has collectively accomplished equate to blind nationalism and racial superiority complexes?

The priority should always be to focus on the problems that need solving, and there will always be problems, so to focus on the good is to do so at the expense of focusing on the bad. In that sense it is "blind". Also, countries don't accomplish things, people do.

bodhisamaya Wrote:Most of the opinions I here from Japanese people are very pessimistic about the current state and possibilities of a better future. Maybe it is just the Japanese way of always downplaying one's own ability, or maybe it's just that the people I meet are studying English and so admire foreign cultures in general.

but isn't the government a mess right now? they've changed the prime minister, broken promises, etc...

Actually, Kan was just re-elected a couple weeks ago.
Japan changes prime ministers almost every year. Nothing new:
Prime Ministers of Japan