I've been thinking that Remembering the Kanji, specifically, remembering how to write the Kanji might be more than is necessary for a lot of people. Personally, I don't think that I will ever need to write (draw) the Kanji. Instead, all I need to do is simply select the kanji from the list while typing. So if I simply learn to recognize the kanji, then I will have both reading and "writing" covered.

I know that Heisig warned against going from kanji->keyword, but considering that many people will never need to write kanji via pen and paper, I think that merely learning to recognize the kanji is more efficient.

Thoughts?

I'd rather have the ability to write kanji.

Do not recommend.

If you're gun ho about it, there's nothing stopping you though.

SammyB Wrote:I'd rather have the ability to write kanji.

Plus one

Although, you'd think I'd spend more time practising my handwriting if that were true

I agree with you. I went trough to RTK without writing down one Kanji, for the same reason you mentioned. But I went in the normal way, from keyword -> Kanji. I have advanced quite beyond RTK and I have to say that I did not encounter any downsides, well except for the obvious: that I cannot write Kanji
I don't know if going kanji -> keyword is the way to go. For one it seems to me that going from keyword to kanji gives you a better knowledge of the kanji, since you have to think of it yourself. But hey, everybody is different, you could try it and see if it works.

they are mutually exclusive IMO. If I'm stumped on a kanji I'm reading and trying to recognize, I draw out the stroke order with my finger/pen and that "muscle memory" fires some neuron in my brain which gives me the meaning. It's a good thing to take advantage of. It's a shame that technology has sort of blasted the need to write kanji, but I still say it's worth learning to write them as it will ease the learning curve.

But, like many people I know here, you could just learn via recognition too, it's quite possible, but I think it will be more work in the long run.

In the short run, just learning to recognize them could work. In the long run, I think you'll find that you get to a certain point and it gets harder. This is because doing the whole thing gives your brain more points to latch onto, where if you simplify it, you have less to go on.

That said, if the choices are 'give up or simplify', simplify.

I did RTK at the very beginning and although it helped me, If I could go back and start again I'd skip it and just learn to read straight off the bat.

You're right, you're not really going to need writing very much at all. So if it's just recognising kanji that you're after then the best way to do that is just start a vocab deck and begin learning readings through vocab that way.

Yeah, RTK helped me massively, and made learning to read a fair bit easier... However, had i spent the same amount of time directly learning to read instead, i'm not sure what the outcome would have been. I do still create new RTK-style cards for new kanji i encounter though. Learning how to write them forces me to pay more attention to the primitives, which then seems to help me recognise words when reading.

It's very hard to play the what if game. I think it's a bit disingenuous to offer advice that you personally haven't followed. So i can't really advise people not to do RTK.

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zigmonty Wrote:It's very hard to play the what if game. I think it's a bit disingenuous to offer advice that you personally haven't followed. So i can't really advise people not to do RTK.

I used RTK for just the jyouyou kanji but I know how to read 700 kanji outside of the jyouyou and I've never studied how to write them at all. I find it doesn't affect being able to read them for me. So I guess I feel ok about giving that advice. Though perhaps if you were starting completely from scratch it may be a little different? Still...

To me it's about difficulty thresholds.
I think the reason Heisig chose to recommend from keyword to kanji is the same why he recommended to write the kanji rather than just read them: the task is more difficult.

Personnally, my brains are kind of lazy, and the fact they need to accomplish a difficult task makes the imprint of what I learn more deeper. For example, I feel from writing the kanji that my recognition is quicker than before RTK.

Of course, this is highly subjective. But I feel the discipline you use now to learn how to write will be useful later (even if you don't ever plan to write again). But sure, if you really feel that you're losing your time, why bother?

Just my opinion: The more senses you use and the more memories you connect with a Kanji, the better. Since you can't hear, smell or taste a Kanji without a lot of extra work (baking a Kanji etc.), I would make use of the possibility to at least feel a Kanji by drawing it.

And as mentioned already, people often draw Hanzi/Kanji while speaking to show which word they mean.

And, just as with drawing objects and people, you notice things you wouldn't notice from just looking at them. Copying increases the quality of the observation immensely.

robnonstop Wrote:..... people often draw Hanzi/Kanji while speaking to show which word they mean.
And, just as with drawing objects and people, you notice things you wouldn't notice from just looking at them. Copying increases the quality of the observation immensely.

Very good points from robnonstop.

You also have to remember that if you want to be able to read handwritten Japanese, post-cards, letters, handwritten reports or even books etc., it is essential that you know "How To Write" the Kanji.

As in every language, handwriting in Japanese can be very sloppy and almost unintelligible. Knowledge of the correct stroke order and direction for similar looking Kanji is a vital tool for deciphering bad handwriting. Even in English there is a large difference in writing in molded letters and writing in free-hand.

Obviously, if you learn the basic rules of stroke order, how to write the strokes, how to write the 214 Radicals and the Kanji exceptions to these rules, you won´t have to learn to write ALL the Kanji (you should now "know" how to do it), and you will be well on the way to being able to "understand" handwritten Japanese.
However, not all Japanese people follow strictly the rules of stroke order, and in these cases only reading practice makes perfect.

Cheers,

Tom

Since I learned how to write the kanji and still practice writing them everyday, I feel like they are more "apart of me" as it were. It could have something to do with muscle memory, which was mentioned earlier. I also find it a very enjoyable activity in and of itself.

Anyway, I don't think learning how to write kanji is as scary as so many people make it out to be. It seems like people who are starting out want to make every aspect of kanji as intimidating as possible. The fact is, when you practice writing the kanji long enough, you get to the point where you can see a new kanji and know how to write it because the same patterns are used over and over. It is not as though every kanji has an utterly unique stroke order. Any kanji with 木偏 (a kanji with the radical 木), for example, will start with 木 on the left, and that 木 will be written with the same stroke order, always.

You should definitely learn how to write it.

Maybe not through RTK, but if you run through a kanji program like KiC or KO2001, writing is essential. Generally, when you recognize kanji, you should be able to know how it's written. That's easy.

But generating kanji from your head and remembering to write 歴史 when you need to write "history." also reflects on your vocabulary. If you know れきし and 歴史 it's easier to call it to mind. My writing is lacking in KO2001 and as a result I'm often trying struggling in conversation and in writing on Lang-8. I'll think I'll know a word but when I try writing it I have to look it up because I can't write it off the top of my head.

Almost everything has been said, I think, but I'd like to add the remark Heisig made somewhere: while you're at learning the kanji, it doesn't cost very much more of an effort to learn how to write them - if you would decide to learn the writing (stroke order, positions) later on, it would.
That being said, and the following already being said, I think the writing of the kanji (in your mind might be enough - personally, I almost never write them out on paper) also helps a lot in remembering them. It's even crucial for some like power, knife and nine.
If you really want to save time/effort, I think you could skip details like changes in stroke order by virtue of position (like with cow), or the exact location (left, under, above, right) of f.i. the soil primitive. Until now I always tried to incorporate such elements in my imaginative-narrative, but I felt that it cost more time, relatively.

Heisig provided that you do write the kanji like 2-3 times to get a feel for it. Eventaully if you keep writing/making stories. You should be able to write the kanji with the correct strokes from memory/story with ease. So when real japanese comes by. It won't be hard at all to write kanji

after not reviewing for almost 3 months, I'm now catching up with 700+ reviews and you know what; even though I can't conciously remember alot of the primatives, I can still write them! My hand's muscle memory just remembers..it's like magic..

Seriously, learn to write them; it's such a small thing, I dont see the point of skipping it? Remember, you can never technically be "literate" in a language if you can't write it by hand.

Let's look at your question: Is recognizing easier than remembering?

Yes it is.

But we have to ask another question: How quickly and to what extent do we want to recognize the kanji?

This complicates recognition because if you are suggesting that we recognize a kanji as a single unit of meaning then we are missing all the elements that make up the unit allowing it to give us its meaning.

Can we recognize the stroke order if we can't write it properly? I personally don't think that a person will be able to remember every single kanji's stroke order, but I do think that recognition will only be effective if one spends a bit more time to "remember" the order.

I suggest that we continue to remember the kanji because remembering, even if we forget, allows us recognizing much much faster.

I suggest using flashcards of both types.

Recognition is of course more important than being able to write a given character out, but they aren't always mutual. When I first did RTK there were characters that I could read but not write AND characters that I could write but not read.


I also find that being able to actually write out a character helps immensely with distinguishing characters that look similar-- and there are a lot of those. 壁 and 璧, for example.

I suggest, if you already have an iPod Touch or iPhone, to use ShinKanji. I use it all the time and always have it with me. You enter a word or character and hit the play button. It shows how the Kanji is drawn, what radicals it consists of and what compounds it appears in. This way, one Kanji leads to another and you learn quickly. I have more iPhone apps that show the stroke order but it's usually burried under various submenus while ShinKanji shows it right up front.

You can also search by drawing the Kanji but you need to use the correct stroke order (again handy to know it).

Last week I was having a mixed Japanese/English conversation with a 日本人 about a business matter (shipping a purchase to Japan). His English and my Japanese were about the same level. Twice I didn't know the Japanese word for what I wanted to say (and he didn't understand the English), but I was able to write the kanji from the keyword, and he was able to understand what I meant. It was quite thrilling, from an RTK point of view. I've had Japanese people in Japan do the same with English.

I have a similar problem. I kind of rushed through RTK so I can't really write or visualize most of the kanji, what can I do now to repair these? I was thinking of playing this DS game なぞっておぼえる大人の漢字練習, has any one heard of?

I have an iPhone app named iKanji that can test stroke order but it's a bit annoying because you can't work with a pen, even the so called "pogo stick" only has the precision of a thumb. If you're patient enough to slowly draw along the lines it's a good way of testing your stroke order knowledge for the Jouyou Kanji/JLPT levels.