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A thread all about こと (and もの too).

#1
Oh こと, what a devil you are. I for some reason cant wrap my brain around this word, as it has so many uses that seem ambiguous. I know I cant be the only one out there who struggles with it. I think it deserves it's own thread.

I fully understand how it can be used in one way only.
Like this:
日本に行くことがあるか?
transliterated to: Have you ever had the situation of going to Japan?

That actually makes sense to me. However here's another usage that I dont quite get, and I come across it frequently when watching anime.

お前のこと大嫌い!
subtitled usually as "I hate you!!"

Why お前のこと and simply not お前が大嫌い?

"I hate your situation?" へ~??

Damn... There's so many situations that I've come across that would've been great examples. But I cant think of them now..

Anyway... lets all vent out our こと and もの frustration here and we'll figure it out together!
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#2
domokun1134 Wrote:I fully understand how it can be used in one way only.
Like this:
日本に行くことがあるか?
transliterated to: Have you ever had the situation of going to Japan?
It should actually be 日本に行ったことがあるか? What you have written I think would be "Are there times when you go to Japan?"
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#3
You should get out of the habit of putting か after plain forms, it usually sounds rather rude when you're asking a question. Just raise the intonation or put の after it.

Quote:お前のこと大嫌い!
This is sort of idiomatic, I think -- typically with すき and きらい used with people, you get Xのこと instead of just X. I'm not entirely sure how to explain this.

"situation" is too restrictive a definition for こと; sometimes try "things about X" or "circumstance" as well. Sometimes it also just nominalizes something (like 泳ぐことがすき)
Edited: 2010-09-21, 9:37 am
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#4
yudantaiteki Wrote:You should get out of the habit of putting か after plain forms, it usually sounds rather rude when you're asking a question. Just raise the intonation or put の after it.
You're right, and I rarely ever do this in actual conversation. I usually use の or raise intonation. Not sure why I didn't do that here.
Quote:
Quote:お前のこと大嫌い!
This is sort of idiomatic, I think -- typically with すき and きらい used with people, you get Xのこと instead of just X. I'm not entirely sure how to explain this.

"situation" is too restrictive a definition for こと; sometimes try "things about X" or "circumstance" as well. Sometimes it also just nominalizes something (like 泳ぐことがすき)
So I guess just accept it as one of those "that's just the way it is" things?
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#5
Here are 4 common usages I can think of now. There's probably more though.

1. attached to the end of a verb or verb phrase makes the verb act like a noun.
食べる - I eat
食べることが好きです - I like eating. (compare: I like apples)

2. like in your example: お前のこと大嫌い。 This is kind of a set phrase. I guess the こと kind of means 'every thing about you', or your 'personality' as opposed to just you if that makes any sense. You could also say 君のこと大好きだよ to someone if you wanted.

3. ぴーたーくんのことだからまた遅れるだろう- Because it's Peter, he'll be late again as usual. The ことだから is kind of hinting that this is the expected behavior that is typical of Peter.

4. ~したことありますか - Have you ever X? like in your example. Don't bother translating like you did in your example. The こと is pretty much serving the same purpose as example 1 in turning the verb into a noun. You use past tense because you're talking about past experience.It's pretty much exactly the same as the English pattern:
Have you ever + (verb past particle)? Except they use ことto nominalise the verb instead of past participle.
Edited: 2010-09-21, 9:49 am
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#6
Great explanation nadiatims. Thanks.

How does 食べることが好きです differ from 食べるのは好きです? Since の can nominalize verbs too.
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#7
こと is used in many individual grammar points, so giving an all-in-one explanation is rather difficult. You'll learn all the usages over time, just as you learned 「past tense + ことがある」 = 「I have had X experience」

I'll try to explain the bare bones of it though, and it's difference between もの. In simplest terms, こと means "thing" in the abstract sense, such as ideas, thoughts, and actions. Intangible things. You cannot grasp an idea in your hand, you cannot taste a thought, nor the concept of an action in itself. All these things are intangible, and thus belong in the domain of こと.

Examples:
いいこと = a good thing (as in a suggestion, an action, etc.)

書いたこと = thing which is written (while writing is perceivable to the senses, it is still intangible in that it is a product of the mind, and is comprehended by the mind. it's a cognitive process, not a tangible item. Perhaps think of こと as the mind, and もの as the body, if it helps you to visualize the difference)

心理学のこと = things about psychology (X + の + こと = things of X)
This would be こと, not もの, in the context of something such as "I know a lot of things about psychology" where their knowledge is not a tangible object, and cannot use もの. If you're talking about tangible objects of psychology, then you can use もの)

書くこと = writing (the action of writing. こと is used as a nominalizer for plain forms of verbs)

こと is used when verbs such as 話す、忘れる、and 知っている because you know, speak, and forget INTANGIBLE things. Knowledge is cognitive, not physical, so if you say "I know things" you cannot use もの for "things". If you're speaking, that's an action, not a physical objection, and the information you're relating is thus こと since it's abstract.
So you say いいことを話して下さい! to say "please tell me something good" saying いいものを話して下さい is ungrammatical (unless you're in a sci-fi movie and spitting out good objects from your mouth as you speak...?) 忘れる as the act of forgetting, implies an action of the mind. You might forget about your pie in the oven, and that pie might be a physical object, but your ACTION OF FORGETTING is all mental and abstract, so you have to use こと.

もの on the other hand is 'thing' but as in 'tangible' thing, something one can perceive with the senses, grasp, and processes physically in the material world.

Thus:

おいしいこと cannot mean "delicious thing" as "delicious" is a physical trait of a tangible object. Thoughts, abstract concepts, ideas, are not 'delicious'.
おいしいもの = delicious thing (icecream, cookies, whatever)

赤いもの = red thing
赤いこと doesn't work because once again, 'red' is a physical characteristic. Only tangible things can be red.
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#8
domokun1134 Wrote:Great explanation nadiatims. Thanks.

How does 食べることが好きです differ from 食べるのは好きです? Since の can nominalize verbs too.
This is an enormously complicated question that even linguists are not sure about, but a very basic and general rule is that の goes with things that you sense/feel whereas こと goes with more abstract things. I wouldn't worry too much about it beyond that.
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#9
Additional information:

こと好き and こと嫌い for saying you like and dislike something, are basic examples of the tendency of Japanese to express things more politely through indirectness. Saying that you dislike the "concept" (thing) of something/someone rather than simply saying it outright, is more respectful due to being less direct. Think of it as the difference in English between "I hate you!" as opposed to "I hate the concept/embodiment/whatever of you!"

Difference between こと and の as nominalizers:

こと conveys less empathy and more apathy than の. This is thought to be due to the fact that in Japanese the nasal "n" is more personal, subjective, and orientated to the speaker by the sound alone, whereas the velar "k" is more distant, cold, and apathetical.

Thus こと is used for things that you're less directly involved in, and の for things you have direct relation, experience etc. too.

IE:
絵本を書くことは難しい = it is difficult to write a picture book
絵本を書くのは難しい = it is difficult to write a picture book

What's the difference in Japanese then, you ask? Well, since こと is more distant and apathetical, it simply express "the act of writing a picture book is difficult" without the speaker being actually emotionally or physically attached to the action, as if it's a cold hard fact. When の is used, however, it expresses that the speaker is personally related to the act of writing a child's book. Maybe he's writing one himself. Maybe his family does it. Whatever the case, when の is used it's no longer simply a lifeless bare-bones statement, it is something the speaker is INVOLVED with. There's empathy, attachment.

For this reason verbs tend to take either こと or の.

Examples from Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar, with my own explanations:

僕は静江が泳ぐのを見る = I was watching Shizue swim.
When you see something you're directly participating in it, it's not a cold, distant action, so you cannot use こと, but have to use の.

お母さんがこんなに心配しているのが分からないの? = Don't you understand that your mom is really worried?
Not only is 分かる an action you're directly involved in, but this is your MOM worrying, you empathize with it, it isn't simply a cold fact from a textbook. So it takes の for the nominalizer.

ジェーンはビルが洗濯するのを手伝った = Jane helped Bill do laundry.
Jane is helping Bill, and is thereby directly involving herself in the action, so it has to use の.

この町でいい音楽を聞くことが出来る = I can listen to good music in this town.
You'll learn "verb + ことが出来る" as a grammar point of it's own, but the reason you use こと for that grammar point is because you're simply stating, "I can do X action" where it's just a general, objective fact, thus taking こと

見ることは信じる事だ = to see is to believe
This is an objective, general statement again, stating that X action = Y action, and thus takes こと rather than の as there is no direct empathy or perception of the speaker, it's just a cold statement.

Now you might be thinking, "Ah, but the empathy/involvement of the speaker is subjective to the situation, is it not?" and you are right. However, basic grammatical formations like all those example sentences are set in stone. If you replace の with こと they simply become ungrammatical regardless of context due to the design of the language. The only exception is in the sentence about the mother worrying. If one nominalized that with こと rather than の it is technically grammatically plausible. But it defies the language and reeks of WRONGNESS because of the simple cultural and psychologically fact that it is your mother, and the thought of a mother's worrying being presented as a simple fact you have no empathy or relation towards just feels so wrong that even in the plausible context of a sociopathic serial killer saying it, gramatically it still feels off.
Edited: 2010-09-21, 10:34 am
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#10
Even considering those general differences -- as well as cases where you must use one or the other -- are there ever cases where the two are interchangeable or where choosing one or the other doesn't dramatically change the meaning of the sentence?
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#11
kusterdu Wrote:Even considering those general differences -- as well as cases where you must use one or the other -- are there ever cases where the two are interchangeable or where choosing one or the other doesn't dramatically change the meaning of the sentence?
Yes.
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#12
yudantaiteki Wrote:
kusterdu Wrote:Even considering those general differences -- as well as cases where you must use one or the other -- are there ever cases where the two are interchangeable or where choosing one or the other doesn't dramatically change the meaning of the sentence?
Yes.
Ah. What a pithy response!
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#13
Yes, in some situations they're interchangeable. I'll use the Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar's examples and details again.

日本へ行くことは簡単です。
日本へ行くのは簡単です。

Both of those sentences are fine. Whether or not a verb or adjective takes either こと or の for the nominalizer is something you simply have to memorize on a case-by-case basis. Here are the basics: (? represents how unacceptable it is, while grammatically possible)

Verb/Adjective
見る       の
見える      の
聞く       の
聞こえる     の
感じる      の
止める      の
待つ       の
見つける     の   ?
防ぐ       の   ?
知る       の   こと
忘れる      の   こと
気がつく     の   こと
思い出す     の   こと
覚える      の   こと
認める      の   こと
避ける      の   こと
止める      の   こと
後悔する     の   こと
分かる      の   こと
好き       の   こと
嫌い       の   こと
怖い       の   こと
嬉しい      の   こと
悲しい      の   こと
易しい      の   こと
難しい      の   こと
期待する      ?   こと
信じる      ?? こと
すすめる         こと
考える          こと
頼む           こと
命じる          こと
出来る          こと
ある           こと
(に)する         こと
(に)なる         こと
(に)よる         こと 
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#14
Aijin. You win 10 internets for this awesome post. Very informative.
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#15
@aijin
Very nice, detailed response. Thanks! Just out of curiosity, why do you have a copy of the Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar? I mean, I don't have any books for people learning English as a second language. It is a nice book, though!
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#16
I intend on becoming a Japanese teacher at an American university, so I probably have more Japanese learning resources for English speakers on my bookshelf than most actual learners do Tongue the Dictionary of Japanese Grammar series is what I personally use for all my explanations to students, since it's the most detailed resource I've come across so far.
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#17
I think I'm going to need to pick up a copy. Seems useful.
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#18
Wow, thanks much Aijin. Your very informative posts has made こと and の understandable to me now. You'd be a damn good teacher.

Thanks again.
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#19
domokun1134 Wrote:I think I'm going to need to pick up a copy. Seems useful.
It's the most useful grammar resource I've purchased, and I'm sure it's the same story for many other forum users. However, I recommend purchasing it in Japan since the price will most likely be lower (it's published in Japan). Compared to the prices at Kinokuniya in San Jose, CA, I saved around $80-100 USD by picking up the entire Dictionary of Japanese Grammar series (basic, intermediate, and advanced) at a Maruzen in Japan.
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#20
vileru Wrote:Compared to the prices at Kinokuniya in San Jose, CA, I saved around $80-100 USD by picking up the entire Dictionary of Japanese Grammar series (basic, intermediate, and advanced) at a Maruzen in Japan.
Yeah, you're basically saving yourself a big chunk of international shipping costs (which US/UK sellers have to put into their prices). Of course if you're not actually in Japan then the difference between "buy in US/UK/etc" and "buy over internet and pay shipping" is not so great, but it still worked out cheaper for me to do that than buy from amazon UK.
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#21
Aijin Wrote:I intend on becoming a Japanese teacher at an American university, so I probably have more Japanese learning resources for English speakers on my bookshelf than most actual learners do Tongue the Dictionary of Japanese Grammar series is what I personally use for all my explanations to students, since it's the most detailed resource I've come across so far.
You should get a kick back from the publisher considering how many books you just sold with that post.
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