In corresponding with English-learners, I realised I'm confused about English manners (greetings, titles and so on). I'm not very good at that at the best of times. In particular, I don't want to give bad advice.

For the first message, I looked back through the ones I received to see which of them are subjectively "not odd". They either have no greeting or "Dear bladethecoder"; and they are signed with nothing, "Thanks", "Regards" or "Best regards". Would you guys agree with this, or do you have any better ideas?

I don't normally use greetings in long back-and-forth email. I looked in my email, and most of my native-speaking friends don't either, though they might be copying me. With people who do use them, I copy; and it's usually "Hi", even when the relationship is basically a professional one. In a "learning English" situation, me copying is not helpful for either of us (though I have done it unconsciously a few times, even for things that were rather strange in retrospect). I'm really not sure what greetings are good in that sort of email. Maybe it's the same as the first message.

On the internet, I think it's usual to call everyone by their username with no title (and some people will switch to first names later). In real life, I sometimes use formal titles when I shouldn't, so I can sympathise with people who do that online. Some Japanese people call me "bladethecoder-san" (in English). Others call me "Ms bladethecoder" until I say that's incorrect, then switch to "bladethecoder-san" instead. I don't really have the heart to make a fuss about it. But after a while I start to feel like I ought to do it too, and that really wouldn't help anyone.

So, any advice for me, or for my friends?

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On a not-really-related note, I'm wondering whether my usual writing style is overly complicated. I like to think I'm being precise, but maybe I'm only being precise in my own head, and not communicating my ideas clearly at all...

You didn't really make it clear what media you are using.

On a forum, of course I leave no greeting or signing.

On an email, I always start with "Hi! It's Zach." if it's a new email to someone and after that I leave it. I always sign with "Sincerely, Zach" on my emails.

On instant messaging I just say "hi" and pop right into the conversation.

So it all depends!

Mail to somebody I already know reasonably well: no opener, or maybe 'hi' or similar. Ending is usually 'thanks -- PMM' or 'thanks in advance' if I've made a request. Mail to somebody I haven't mailed before I tend to start with 'Hi X' and an introductory bit like "I'm working on A and Y suggested that you might be able to help me." and I usually sign off with full name rather than initials.

Occasionally where I'm using an email in place of a formal letter I'll use the standard letter start/sign off of "Dear X/Yours sincerely" or "Dear Sir/Yours faithfully" but that's pretty rare.

Seconding what IceCream suggests. If its any kind of formal mail, start off formal and then copy how the other person greets you.

I think of the first email to someone on a given subject is like starting a conversation, so you'd have an opener ("Hi!", "Wassup?", "Dear Ms. X", "Yo, Fish-face!", depending), but replies to that email going back-and-forth don't have openers, because they're all part of the same conversation.

One form you sometimes see from native speakers is Dear <First name> <Last name> which personally strikes me as slightly strange - I'd go for Dear <First name> or Dear <Title> <Last name>. But not usually in an email unless it is fairly formal. Some of my older friends/colleagues seem to favour Dear <First name> over Hi etc.

I usually sign off with Cheers (informal) or Regards/kind regards/best wishes (more formal) followed by my name (full name, if it's formal). My pet hate is people that don't sign off their emails at all, which always seems slightly abrupt. Of course, I could just read the header, I suppose!

I suspect there are British/American differences here too. For example, Zach's sign-off "Sincerely, Zach" would be unusual for a British-English speaker. We only use the full form "Yours sincerely", but it's pretty formal. And I believe the form "Yours faithfully" is not used in American English...

fugu68 Wrote:I believe the form "Yours faithfully" is not used in American English...

If it is, then I haven't seen it.

Thanks for the input. This will be very useful, both for giving advice, and to help me not panic when people do something unexpected ;)

"Yours faithfully" is rare in the UK too. I've read that it should only be used for letters opened with "Dear Sir".

Korvar Wrote:I think of the first email to someone on a given subject is like starting a conversation, so you'd have an opener ("Hi!", "Wassup?", "Dear Ms. X", "Yo, Fish-face!", depending), but replies to that email going back-and-forth don't have openers, because they're all part of the same conversation.

Ah yes, I think that might explain it for me too.

bladethecoder Wrote:Thanks for the input. This will be very useful, both for giving advice, and to help me not panic when people do something unexpected

"Yours faithfully" is rare in the UK too. I've read that it should only be used for letters opened with "Dear Sir".

That's right - but I wouldn't say it's rare, as it's the standard form you'd use on any fairly formal letter to someone whose name you don't know. Letters of complaint, cover letters for job applications, for example.

Ah, OK. I have had a sheltered existence...

As a kid, my mother always told me that "Yours Faithfully" should generally be used when you're awaiting some kind of reply or some sort of action, because you're literally describing yourself as having faith in the recipient. Like:

"I'm faithful that you will get my injury claim sorted out."

"I'm faithful that you will contract someone to fill all these potholes."

"I'm faithful that you will give me some advice on memorising the Kanji."

I only really use the phrase for job applications, though. Mostly I'll sign off with "-Name", or "Love, Name" depending on who I'm writing to.

bladethecoder Wrote:On a not-really-related note, I'm wondering whether my usual writing style is overly complicated. I like to think I'm being precise, but maybe I'm only being precise in my own head, and not communicating my ideas clearly at all...

I find your writing to be very clear. Your use of 'sign post' phrases shows organized thought and makes it easy to follow. I never have to look back to try to infer what you mean and where you're going. I imagine your ESL readers appreciate that clarity.

I tend to reread my posts to ESL people checking specifically for idioms or non-literal word usage, long or complicated sentence structure, and where I can substitute simpler vocab. We often use more of this stuff than we realize.

On the form of greetings question, I'll add a couple ideas for business correspondence in case your ESL friends ask:

* With paper letters, people sometimes cross out the title and full name and write in the first name when signing. It's one way to comply with formal requirements yet still convey a more personal tone. For formal business letters or cover letters, perhaps refer them to a manual or online resource or summarize the key bits for them. ("Dear Madam"?, "Dear Sirs and Mesdames,"? "Ladies and Gentlemen:? ugh)

*With formal email, I sometimes attach a formal letter and add a more personal note in the email itself. This is a good practice if the recipient needs to keep a copy of the letter for whatever reason.

*With less formal work email messages, it obviously depends on the industry, relationship and purpose. I still think it's better to err on the side of professionalism or caution, though. The form of greeting/closing can serve as a reminder that emails sometimes end up in court or in the newspaper. :-) "Dear" is still common."Hello/Hi" might needs to be varied a bit (some people consider "Hi" too casual). At the very least, "[name],[message]" imo. The formal closings look a bit odd to me in emails. The ones mentioned are safe: Best regards, etc. )

*Some people avoid closings with literal interpretations they consider too gushy or flowerly in a business context. Personal choice.

[edit: deleted examples already mentioned)

Thanks Thora. Sometimes I could use shorter sentences or simpler vocab, but it's good to know that my writing is basically clear.

The conventions for formal letters are well-documented, and I think many of the ESL people learned them at school. Not so much for other forms of communication.

I have another question about emailing internet people. I think "Dear username" is fine when you don't know the person's name and "Hi" is too informal. But what about "Regards, username"? Is that odd? I have seen email signed with "-username" before, but I'm not sure if it works with "Dear"...

I wouldn't use Dear/Regards + "username" unless I was being facetious or needed to convey a level of formality and didn't have access to their 'real' name, and even in the latter case I'd probably just stick with "Hello" -- I wouldn't find it odd if someone else did it to me, because I'm an abstract entity with no 'real' name, but I think others generally see a username as not being easily paired with conventional etiquette related to given names and surnames.

Also, most of the time I associate email handles with usernames, so there's always a fine line between redundancy if they're the same, or too many layers of aliases if they're different.

Also, I haven't read it but I was impressed by the author's interview on The Colbert Report, as their thoughts on email not being respected enough as a medium mirrored my own:

Send: Why People Email So Badly and How to Do It Better

"Dear" is really a non professional convention on email I think (really sounds like some agony column to me).
"Regards" is always polite, but I also use the less formal XXX.
With "dear" it can work if you're unsure of the level of formality.

EratiK Wrote:"Dear" is really a non professional convention on email I think (really sounds like some agony column to me).
"Regards" is always polite, but I also use the less formal XXX.
With "dear" it can work if you're unsure of the level of formality.

I don't know, "Dear" feels formal and idiomatic to me. I never think if someone says "Dear" they're getting fresh. "Yours ever" is pushing it, though. ;p

Quote:I wouldn't use Dear/Regards + "username" unless I was being facetious or needed to convey a level of formality and didn't have access to their 'real' name, and even in the latter case I'd probably just stick with "Hello" -- I wouldn't find it odd if someone else did it to me, because I'm an abstract entity with no 'real' name, but I think others generally see a username as not being easily paired with conventional etiquette related to given names and surnames.

Hmm, I see what you mean. Do you use "Hello" or "Hello username"?

If it's too weird to send formal email to a username, perhaps people who don't use their real names are, by that convention, giving permission not to do it (even if the sender would normally use "Dear/Regards" in that situation).

In the rare case that it's actually a formal letter situation, I guess it would be "Dear Sir"

Now, if someone writes email as "Hello ... Regards, first-name", how should the nameless person reply? And what if the sender signs with their full name instead?


In Japanese, it looks to me like the minimal opening is "usernameさん、" - so I think some people would like to know how to translate that.

nest0r Wrote:I don't know, "Dear" feels formal and idiomatic to me. I never think if someone says "Dear" they're getting fresh. "Yours ever" is pushing it, though. ;p

I was thinking of something along the line of "my dear Sara, how are you doing? etc".
But true it's more stuck-up adult to adult or grandchildren to granny or avuncalar relationship kind of register.

But I know about emails I sent to aliases on translation site where the lack of info (old/young, male/female...) makes you revert to dear (especially when I suspected the recipient to be old).
But, yeah, it does sound kitch.
(younger people get a "Hey")

bladethecoder Wrote:Now, if someone writes email as "Hello ... Regards, first-name", how should the nameless person reply? And what if the sender signs with their full name instead?

It depends on how confident you feel about giving your real name (depending on the relationship you have based on why you exchange emails in the first place).

^Say it's nest0r who doesn't have one ;)

Maybe I got a little sidetracked there. And for my question about how to "translate" the Japanese expressions, I already know that it's whatever would normally be used in that situation in English, even if that answer doesn't go down very well =(

nest0r Wrote:I think others generally see a username as not being easily paired with conventional etiquette related to given names and surnames.

It seems this is somewhat different in Japanese. And there lies the difficulty, perhaps.

bladethecoder, my mistake - I thought you were teaching students online about various styles of email in English. I see now you're more interested in setting an example or subtly guiding internet friends.

bladethecoder Wrote:The conventions for formal letters are well-documented, and I think many of the ESL people learned them at school.

I see new Japanese employees sending normal formal letters and casual emails, but being unsure about the in-between emails in English. It ranges from emails formatted exactly like formal letters (complete with physical addresses!) to group emails (all senior people at other organizations) starting with "hey guys". :-) So I guess that's what I was focusing on.

I found that people who hadn't yet developed a sense for what's appropriate usually appreciated some very specific feedback with examples. So for your "bladecoder-san" question, I'd be inclined to encourage them not to use さん in English. If they consider a username to be like a first name, they might be feel more comfortable dropping the title. (never "Hi Ms Sue") Reassure them it won't be considered rude.

(If it's an otherwise all Japanese group writing in English referring to each other with "usernameさん", I wouldn't ask them to treat me differently, but I'd probably still mention that dropping the title is fine/conventional.)

Thanks for the advice. I agree it's useful to give specific feedback with examples. I wasn't sure of what was appropriate, so I was easily thrown off, and when trying to give specific feedback I found myself quite lost.

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I was thinking about forum PMs. There's a forum of mostly native English speakers where I'm a moderator. I remembered I have hundreds of PMs, including many from strangers, so I had a look through those.

Most have no greeting. I think strangers use a greeting slightly more often than people I've spoken to before. I see "Hi," "Hey," "Hiya,"... One person used "Hello". My username is usually not mentioned (except in BB-code tags when someone clicked the quote button). A couple of people used "Hi username" / "Hey username". (Oh, there's someone on another forum who uses "username,")

In these messages, only three people signed with anything. It was always a username. One had the username only, one used "--", and one used "Thanks,".

(There were maybe 20 people where we knew each other's real name, but it was never used for anything other than mailing packages.)

I'm actually surprised. Is this how people on the internet behave in general?

Real-life email question. If I email someone with "Dear <title> <surname>" and they sign the reply with their first name, does that mean they want me to call them by it instead?