When you are reviewing, how long do you give yourself to make the connection between the keyword and the story? I find that for many kanji it happens almost instantly, but for a few, I have to sit and let the keyword bounce around in my head, sometimes for up to a minute or so, before it "clicks". Does the Leitner system take this kind of variation into consideration (i.e., should this be a successful recall or a failure)? I used to mark these as failed, but I'm starting to think that emphasizing recall speed like this may be improper use of the Leitner system.

I don't give myself a time limit, though if I completely blank on a kanji long enough that I get aggravated, I'll just skip it and mark it as failed. I assume that successfully recalling a kanji, even after an extended time, reinforces the neural pathways, or something brainy like that. I don't much understand how memory works, I just know that if I manage to recall a kanji, even if it takes five minutes or more, it's much easier to remember it the next time it pops up.

because the idea behind heisig's method is using creative visualization to store and recall the kanji rather than brute force drilling, i think that setting a time limit on your recall is a bit counterproductive.

i find that with those kanji i have to sit with for 5 minutes before the image comes into focus and the elements play out their little scene for me to write them down during a review, they come to mind much stronger the next time around, because my brain was working hard on those neural pathways for that 5 minutes.

on the other hand, i find that if i simply give up after 20 seconds and fail the card, thereby seeing the answer without spending any of that extra energy on it, more often than not, i will fail it again the next time it comes up in the second box.

that said, sometimes i come across a kanji in a review, and my mind draws a total blank, and i don't even get the sensation of "something out there in the fog." with these, i know nothing is going to come, so i give them about 1 minute and just fail them. after a while you can kinda tell the difference between this type and the first type.

i really reccomend that you do not set time limits on reviews. let the kanji come to you or not in their own time (within reason). and even if it takes you 5 minutes for the kanji to come, as long as you write it down correctly, don't fail it! you didn't get it wrong! spending the time with it might be exactly what it takes to set it in your mind forever, and if it didn't, the next (and longer) spaced repetition will show you where you stand with it. have faith and give the leitner system a chance to really do its work. failing cards after a certain time limit seems too much akin to brute force drilling.

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My experiences echo that of Mcjon01 and decameron.

Nah. Most important is that you can visualize the elements, remember the story, and link them all to the keyword. Later on when you learn vocabulary, you'll automatically get quicker anyway.

Thanks for the advice everyone!

akrodha Wrote:Later on when you learn vocabulary, you'll automatically get quicker anyway.

This is a very good point. I guess as long as I can take a minute and make the connection, once I start encountering compounds the speed will come automatically.

If they don't come with in seconds , you have not properly remembered them.

DaveNB Wrote:If they don't come with in seconds , you have not properly remembered them.

Certainly the goal is to have them come in seconds, however when one is still in the learning stage the process whereby one gets to this point is equally important.

While one is on the way to developing such immediate proficiency with each kanji, it is valuable IMHO to spend the extra time to try to recall the story as it reinforces those neural pathways, etc. I used to try to race through reviews and I would fail kanji if they didn't come to me within seconds, but I noticed that I often didn't make that much improvement on them the next time. While those that for what ever reason I spent a few minutes trying to dredge up the story were usually that much easier to recall the next time around.

Whether I choose to pass or fail such kanji is, I believe, a separate issue from looking at whether my story needs adjusting. Depending on how I feel about my story I may choose to improve it this time or wait and see how I do the next time the kanji comes up.

IMHO you should still pass these kanji...hey, you remembered them, albeit not immediately...you might want to take note of them so that you can go back and re-examine the story. If you review on this site you also might want to say "yes" as opposed to "easy". I don't review on this site so I don't remember how this affects the delay before they are presented again, but surely kanji that you recall in seconds should warrant an "easy."

DaveNB Wrote:If they don't come with in seconds , you have not properly remembered them.

i suppose you are right if you see SRS as a sort of test or exam. but i see, and i believe the developers of the system see, SRS as a learning process.

i feel strongly that if you shortcut the process by using this as a test or as a drilling system, you will be cutting deeply into the effectiveness and the efficiency that SRS promises. it's not going to kill you or anything, but you will be using up a lot more of your study time drilling rather than either adding new kanji (at the beginning) or working on the other aspects of the kanji (after finishing rtk). it is also likely, that if you shortcut the process, the development of your long-term recall will suffer as you spend the energy perfecting your short-term memory.

in essence, don't forget about "forgetting about forgetting."

As someone with a background in neuroscience I have the following observation which is generally in accord with decamerons remarks. Memory is reinforced by letting the image return to your fully conscious state rather than by cutting off the process with a stopwatch. Sometimes we have vivid memories that return to our conscious state unexpectedly even though we may not be able to force the image back upon command. So a relaxed state of mind will often work better to draw back images that are not deeply engraved or are in the process of being engraved into memory. The pressure of a stop watch may show you how present in your conscious memory the image is but it won't contribute anything to the actual memorization process.

Interesting post rncory!

Personally I'm quite into taking my time over reviewing. It's much more fun taking the time and savoring the process rather than flipping too fast and thinking, "shit, I knew that!".

It's interesting trying to work out why I fail the ones I do. In almost every case it is down to an incomplete image, e.g. for 'stratum' I kept seeing a bean stalk increasing, as opposed to a flag pole. Or not forming proper images associating keywords to stories, assuming that some keywords are so obvious, e.g. 'coffin' a wooden box for a bureaucrat. Now, the entrance to my city hall is so full of coffins I can't get in.