I have a huge problem, when I learn a word in a sentence I just memorize the sentence but I don't really learn the reading of a word. For a example 自転車 I will know it by memorizing the sentence that the word appears in, but if I see this word again in another sentence I have no idea how to read it. Are there any ways I can rid this problem ? What methods do you guys use to actually LEARN the reading and not just memorizing the sentence ?
Any help is deeply appreciated.

So when you're reviewing, you know the reading of the word because of the sentence it's in? I usually just have this problem with remembering a card's meaning. You can try highlighting the word you're testing yourself on in each card and use the sentence for help remembering the meaning. Or you could try making cards without sentences for noun words.

Really though, if you just keep reading all everything will eventually stick and you won't even remember that word being difficult.

Just study single vocabulary words alone. I tried the sentence thing for along time and i had the same experience as you. I thought single vocab words would actually be a lot easier, but in fact its way more difficult because i don't have the sentences to help me "cheat" anymore.

This has been discussed tons of times in countless "sentences vs vocabulary" threads. Generally if you want to focus on recognizing a word you should just learn/review that word in isolation... oh and read a lot.

Are you using SRS to plug your sentences in and redo them over and over?

If so, one way you can combat this is by flipping it.

Give yourself the kana of the sentence, then try to write the sentence in kanji. Reveal the answer and see if done right. You'll learn a lot more fluidly.

Yes it does fell like "cheating", but reversing the cards and using kana->kanji is a good idea, when I read ajatt he said that one of the steps to learning a sentence is you have to know how to write it, but then, how are you supposed to learn to write it if it's already in front of your eyes on the screen.

You have to memorize initially in order to learn more. That's how it is
Example, is vocab from a sentence. You have to understand the vocab in the sentence before you can understand the sentence completely

I include one or more sentences on the answer side, and have the word alone as the question. I usually try to remember what context the word is used in or what particle it's used with, and then confirm with the sentences. I never found having a "question" telling me all that very beneficial, but I guess it really depends how your SRSing fits in with the rest of your studies.

Use flashcards for words, not sentences. Learn to read by reading.

I've had literally the exact same problem with sentences, so I switched to vocab and never looked back. Reviews are much faster, it's easier to mine material, and I feel like I'm actually learning the vocab for real now.

FooSoft Wrote:I've had literally the exact same problem with sentences, so I switched to vocab and never looked back. Reviews are much faster, it's easier to mine material, and I feel like I'm actually learning the vocab for real now.

I agree, but for me I still do sentences as they provide "context". But it really doesn't matter all that much, all one needs is to read a lot outside of the srs. But initially it's best to start with context, then branch off to vocab once you understand the grammar.

ta12121 Wrote:I agree, but for me I still do sentences as they provide "context". But it really doesn't matter all that much, all one needs is to read a lot outside of the srs. But initially it's best to start with context, then branch off to vocab once you understand the grammar.

Context is kind of a double edged sword. On one hand it's nice to see how a given term is used, but it also drops hints as to what that word is supposed to mean. And yeah, reading a lot kind of solves the problem because you get context that is new to you and won't work as a crutch to trick you into thinkining you know words that you really don't.

I went through about 8k sentences before I really understood this, and now I'm basically doing only vocab SRS and reading. I managed to go through the whole 8.5k public JLPT vocab deck in about 3 months, and despite the fast pace I feel like I can recognize and sometimes even use those words more readily than what I got from my sentences.

@FooSoft
same for me, vocab is the way to go now for me.
For me I believe the combination of context/vocab is really powerful. I can attest to that because I've reached that 90%+ range of understanding,reading,listening in japanese. 90% isn't all that much, since the language is huge. Still screw up on readings and still can't read a lot of japanese peoples names(more the rarer ones, now/not seen often then the common ones)

Got to agree with the general consensus for vocab cards. making sentence cards to memorize vocabulary is massively inefficient. Although I never stuck with sentences for any length of time, I think sentence cards could have value for training/memorizing other skills, especially at the beginner stage. For example memorizing specific grammar patterns, particles, conjugations, word role within a sentence etc. In these cases, I would just have the tested component of the sentence in red on the front, and then an explanation on the back. Making a deck that tests very specific things like this while going through a decent grammar reference of textbook would probably be very effective but maybe a lot of work. I think it would be great if srs's could use variables (to for example pull random words from a global list of nouns) to create cards that are different evey time while still teaching specific things. An example card to teach くれる・もらう:
front:
[name]さんは[name]さんに[noun]を[くれた or もらった]。

back:
XにYをもらう=receive Y from X
or
XにYをくれる=give Y to X.

This is essentially how good language teachers work. They are able to break the language down into isolated skills which they can explain and test students on by getting them to interpit or produce original sentences on the fly. Cards like this would also offer extra repetition on the random words chosen from the lists.

ta12121 Wrote:@FooSoft
I went through about 8k sentences before I really understood this, and now I'm basically doing only vocab SRS and reading. I managed to go through the whole 8.5k public JLPT vocab deck in about 3 months, and despite the fast pace I feel like I can recognize and sometimes even use those words more readily than what I got from my sentences.)

I'm always curious as to how some people can learn so many new words plus plow through reviews in a day. Does this come as a result of being an advanced level student or am I missing something? 8.5 k words in three months amounts to roughly 90 words a day. At one point I tried doing 25 new words a day and even that was taxing. Could you share how you accomplished this?

It's unusual; I think even 25 words a day is a lot, although it depends a little bit on how much time you devote to studying. I'm not sure I ever learned 25 words in a day, but maybe I did and just don't remember...

dusmar84 Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:@FooSoft
I went through about 8k sentences before I really understood this, and now I'm basically doing only vocab SRS and reading. I managed to go through the whole 8.5k public JLPT vocab deck in about 3 months, and despite the fast pace I feel like I can recognize and sometimes even use those words more readily than what I got from my sentences.)

I'm always curious as to how some people can learn so many new words plus plow through reviews in a day. Does this come as a result of being an advanced level student or am I missing something? 8.5 k words in three months amounts to roughly 90 words a day. At one point I tried doing 25 new words a day and even that was taxing. Could you share how you accomplished this?

"Learned" means a lot of things, I do set a limit of cards each day. But that doesn't mean i learned it just that day. I usual say I've learned it when I can recognize it/read it/understand the meaning. I believe it all comes down to the individual, at first I thought 10 new cards was so much, then it went to 30, then 50, then 80, then 100 and now it just keeps going until I've reached my goals.

Nothing to do with level but rather dedication

Wait, just noticed FooSoft said that lol wrong post that I've answered

I agree with ta12121

For me going through the 8.5k was actually fairly difficult, but it did get better over time. I had to seriously cut back on my hobbies to make time to study about 3 hours each day after work (which in reality takes closer to 4 with distractions). Minimizing distractions is actually key to getting good amounts of stuff done I think. This means no youtube/wikipedia detours, snacks, etc. That and self-confidence (which I initially got from completing RTK1+RTK3, I still can't believe I know all those characters). Oh, and putting up with usually around 1000-1200 reviews each day; I'm pretty stubborn, and in this case this works in my favor

What it comes down to is that I think memory works mostly through repition rather than concious study efforts. So just throw lots of words at it, and over time they will stick, you don't really even have to try. Just do your reviews and it will work out. I did however make a habit of identifying words I would probably miss a lot (like with weird readings and poor kanji-word meaning mapping), and used a modified iverson method for those.

Do you add every new word you encounter? I am reading a manga now (though I understand like 0.1% of it), there are many words I'd like to add but not sure if I should do it or only add words that kind of "pop up" a lot, or should I just download one of the anki shared vocab decks ?

If you're an absolute beginner you want to be learning common words, not every word from a manga. If you can find a JLPT 4 (now N5) vocab list then I'd start there.

I'm not an absolute beginner but my vocabulary is lacking.

loverkanji Wrote:Do you add every new word you encounter? I am reading a manga now (though I understand like 0.1% of it), there are many words I'd like to add but not sure if I should do it or only add words that kind of "pop up" a lot, or should I just download one of the anki shared vocab decks ?

You might as well give something like the Core6K deck a go and see how you like it. I find the convenience factor makes it much easier to reliably do a reasonable number of words a day, but some other people find it's a bit dull and uninteresting. See which side you fall on :-)

For adding random words you encounter, my rule of thumb is not to bother with words that don't get EDICT's "(P)" tag in rikaichan. There are some problems with this (it's 20,000 or so words so arguably a bit wider than you might want, and a bit focused on newspaper-type vocab, and so on) but it has the significant advantage of being very easy to check for stuff you're reading online.

FooSoft Wrote:What it comes down to is that I think memory works mostly through repition rather than concious study efforts. So just throw lots of words at it, and over time they will stick, you don't really even have to try. Just do your reviews and it will work out. I did however make a habit of identifying words I would probably miss a lot (like with weird readings and poor kanji-word meaning mapping), and used a modified iverson method for those.

That's an interesting idea. I mean Ive kinda tried this method but the intial learning curve and failure rate was so high I never stuck with it long because I felt nothing was sticking. However seeing as how well it worked for you (8.5k words in 3 months) it would be worth trying again.

Out of curiosity, how many reviews would it take before a brand new word would stick for you? What typially would happen to me was that Id get a new word, fail it for the first time, see it about 20 minutes later and get it right, then see it the next day and usually get it right but by the time it comes up again, lets say in 4 days, in that time I would have repeated this cycle with hundreds of other words and now my memory is all mush.

I've learned through experience is that, you need to memorize in order to learn. Once you have a initial memory of that particular you are studying, then you move onto other factors for you to be labeled "learned"

ta12121 Wrote:I've learned through experience is that, you need to memorize in order to learn. Once you have a initial memory of that particular you are studying, then you move onto other factors for you to be labeled "learned"

I agree with this. You can't just throw cards in an SRS and hope they stick - or, you can, but it takes longer and is inevitably more frustrating. From my experience it's best to memorize them first, either with the Iverson method, Anki's "Cram" mode, or even plain old paper flashcards, then stick them in the SRS to remember them long-term. Unless they're super easy in the first place, in which case it's arguable whether you need to SRS them at all.