Hey everyone,

I recently finished RTK1 and started learning vocabulary. I've already had a few years of Japanese classes, so I'm about at the intermediate level. I've been vocab-mining textbooks (right now I'm working through Genki 2) and my question is this: if the meaning of kanji is completely unrelated to the vocabulary word, what is the best way to remember it?

I'll give you an example. One word I recently came across is 注意 (chuui = careful/cautious). The kanji keywords are "pour" + "idea", which have no relation to the actual meaning! In my opinion, there are now three options:

1. Forget the meanings and learn by rote, through drilling flashcards or whatever. Not my favorite option.

2. Look up alternate meanings to the kanji that better fit the word. These seem to sometimes be obscure, hard to find, and even harder to remember. Through a bit of research, I found that 注 can mean "concentrate on" and 意 can mean "care". So, if you are concentrating on care, you are being careful. This can work, but takes some extra effort.

3. Make up a new story using the Heisig keywords. For example, "If you have the idea to pour some juice, be careful not to spill!" This is probably the easiest method, but it seems like it might be counterproductive in the long run as you are relying increasingly on the keywords.

What method have you used for vocab words? What do you think works the best?

meredithcat Wrote:if the meaning of kanji is completely unrelated to the vocabulary word, what is the best way to remember it?

In the example that you gave, the word does seem relatively well connected to its kanji. But I noticed that you seemed to be using Heisig keywords, and he actually explictly recommends option #2 in RTK1, where he advises that "the key word will gradually give way" to "substitution of a Japanese word or even a number of words".

Let's see if I can express this in words...

You seem to be wanting to use the kanji to remember the words. ie. Caution = Pour-Intention or Concentrate-Care. And after going through Heisig (Standing + Sun + Heart = Intention) it seems like a logical way of going about it.

However, what I have found it more helpful to use words to remember the kanji. This means taking words I already know (or learn along the way) that include that kanji and get a "feel" for what it means. This way, I can associate the kanji not just with the Heisig keyword, but also with words it's used in. Doing it like this makes you have a "wider range of meaning" for the kanji.

Now, for actually initially attaching the kanji to the first couple words might be a little tough. If you're having trouble remembering it, then I would probably look up other words with the kanji to get a better feel of it, so then you can understand how the kanji fit together in the compound until it makes sense.

Once you get a pretty decent understanding of it, stick it in an SRS and hope it sticks. If you have the understanding, it probably will.

Sorry...I didn't explain it the way it goes on in my head, but the whole attaching kanji to words or words to kanji...I'm not really sure how to explain what's happening :/

Hmm... I found the best way to do it was to *not* rely on the keywords as memory aids, because otherwise you'll still find yourself remembering ちゅうい as "pour with care" all the time, when you want to remember it as ちゅう＋い, 注 becomes the ちゅう of 注意, and 意 becomes the い of 注意, so when you later see 意 in 意見 (いけん), you'll remember い as 意, and pick up けん as 見 (well, one reading of it, anyway). And so on, to 注文 (ちゅうもん), etc... (This is the goal of the Japanese keywords project, IIRC.)

I think this is the best way to approach it, because you drop the English middleman step, and start thinking in all Japanese, as you should do. Heisig keywords are just supposed to be a temporary thing anyway, to be replaced by actual real Japanese as you fill up the spaces in your brain they take up for you. Sounds frustrating after you went to all that trouble, but they do serve a purpose for a little while. (I can't even remember most of them anymore, to be honest, but they did their job.)

One good way to attack it would be to use a book like Kanji Odyssey (or another book that follows kanji vocab in a pattern, like Kanji in Context). Both take kanji and group them in clusters with a few other related kanji together in order to make learning them easier. I prefer Kanji Odyssey's approach because it chunks it in 5 kanji at a time for the most part, but there are other books out there.

Of course, there will be some rote memorization at first, but as you go along, it gets easier and easier, because you're building on a systematic foundation, not a random collection of words.

EDIT: Oh, and word lists can help a lot in a pinch. Make a list of 5-7 words in kanji, then when you can pronounce them all properly, write them out in kana correctly. (Don't write them out until you can.) Then when you can nail all of the definitions (either in English or in Japanese, depending on your level), write them out in a 3rd column.

Let some time pass. Go start another list if you want to.

Now cover the column of Kanji. Looking at the kana, reproduce the list of kanji in a 4th column.

Let more time pass. Do it for the other word lists.

Now cover the kana. Try to reproduce it again. Etc.

I sometimes do this with troublesome vocab before I put it into Anki, and I find it helps a lot.

Word lists have been discussed a lot here before. Search for Iversen's method.

meredithcat Wrote:Hey everyone,

I recently finished RTK1 and started learning vocabulary. I've already had a few years of Japanese classes, so I'm about at the intermediate level. I've been vocab-mining textbooks (right now I'm working through Genki 2) and my question is this: if the meaning of kanji is completely unrelated to the vocabulary word, what is the best way to remember it?

You can make a distinction between remembering ちゅうい, the word, and remembering the way it's written in kanji. This might seem like a weird distinction to make, but in English there are words you would say you know even if you're not 100% sure how to spell them, right? So: you can learn ちゅうい with absolutely no reference to the kanji that make it up. This doesn't mean you have to learn it by rote. Make up some sentences for it, find some sentences for it. Beware of this new kind of fraud, beware of this computer virus. (～にご注意ください is a common phrase for that), and it's a common enough word that you'll see and hear it all over the place.

I think that even if the kanji don't make a lot of sense you can try to think about the way they fit together, so for example, being careful means that you pour your whole will or volition [I think this is a little closer to 意　than 'idea', in a lot of compounds at least] into it, so that you don't get eaten by the bear or whatever.

Thanks everyone, that was a lot of helpful advice! So, from what I gather, I'm not supposed to use English words to describe the kanji (despite all of that work in RTK!), but I should instead get a "feel" for what each one means through its compounds. Using Kanji Odyssey or something similar actually sounds like a great idea, but I'm starting classes in a few weeks and we'll be assigned all kinds of random vocabulary. Should I try to focus on one kanji at a time, or will stuff just build on itself eventually after I learn enough compounds?

Edit: Also, for those of you who have used Kanji Odyssey, would you recommend the hard copy or the e-book? (I've been thinking of buying it for a while and I might just use it on the side.)

I think you'll find that everyone has their own approach to how they learn vocab. Some people like to build memory palaces and use other extensive memory aids to remember it all, and it does work, but in my case I'd rather just not mess with all of that extra effort. Rote memorization works very well too if you read a lot to reinforce it, and you don't have to constantly go wandering in an extra layer of your native language.

I found that the few times I used a mnemonic to remember a Japanese word, I got stuck using the mnemonic every time I wanted to write the word, and it drove me nuts. "Baseball... trees... turkeys..." I can still hear that in my head every time I start to write 雑誌, and it's been 2 years. >_<

As for Kanji Odyssey, it depends on personal preference, I think. I bought the books, because I was one of the many people who worked on the spreadsheets to get the sentences in a form to put them into Anki, because you can't copy the sentences off of the CD. (Which is extremely annoying.) OCR works great on a book. Not so hot on a CD.

The CD does cover more material, and it has extra features. I think it's more of a personal preference thing.

If you decide to use the KO sentences, a word of warning-- there's a lot of new vocab in there you're going to have to learn on top of the kanji you're studying. There's a lot up front, but it's totally worth it to learn it. Or you can just dump the sentences and grab sentences online that work better for your vocabulary level, and learn the new vocab later. But the new vocab that shows up in the KO sentences is useful stuff, and shows up later on.

Also, a word of advice: chop up the long sentences into 2 cards. You want short sentences in an Anki deck. Long sentences make reviews slow, and slow reviews really hurt my Will to Review. (They also have higher fail rates.) Also, don't be afraid to use online dictionaries for replacement example sentences if you don't like the ones in KO, if the ones in KO aren't to your liking... or just use sentences from wherever you like. Whatever works for you.

But I have found that using Anki has made a huge difference in my ability to remember a lot of this stuff. That, and reading a lot of Japanese.

I would personally recommend doing core6000 rather than KO. I've tried to go through KO so many times, and the other day, I finally just gave up. Many sentences offer up several new vocabulary words, the words contain kanji that aren't fully covered until later in the book , the sentences tend to be long, the vast majority of vocab tends to be business related, and the sentences are boring as hell.

Yeah, that's why I offered up a lot of "ifs" and caveats about using KO's sentences. They aren't for everyone.

I think the study/vocab *order* KO uses is excellent, but the sentences themselves aren't well thought out. If you don't mind the steep learning curve (I don't), and you don't mind the business/news/politics base of a lot of the KO sentences, then the KO sentences can be *really* useful.

But they're dull as hell, long, and introduce a lot of new vocab out of order.

That's why I suggested using sentences from somewhere else whenever you wanted to. That could be core 6k, yahoo.co.jp/dic (2 和英 dictionaries, lots of sentences, no waiting), or other sources you come across out there.

There are also sorted versions of core 6k, sorted to KO's order, that don't introduce any new vocab outside of the vocab you're studying and have already learned.

Heres what I did.
Suspend the entire kore 6k deck.
Search for a kanji that you know and add all the sentences with it.
Also add sentences with that kanji in a compound that you think you can handle.
Repeat until you get enough sentences for the day.
An example day would have me unsuspending the following cards :

人
人間
他人
地
間
時間
時
土地
土

Add as many overlapping kanji in the compounds as you like. The more overlap, the easier it can be. Sometimes a kanji is too common and is in too many compounds, in that case just dont add all of them.

I've done something similar. Tried both resorting the deck by kanji and by reading. The order seemed to be relatively the same either way.

This way each new vocabulary word is not totally random. Others suspend the deck and just unfreeze the words as they come across them.

http://tangorin.com/

This site will make those "obscure" meanings a little easier to find.

I think the main point here is that we're all different. We all learn differently, and ultimately, the best way is going to be what "feels right" and makes the most progress for YOU.

Although KO2001 has been put down a few times already, I use it and enjoy it. Some like it, some don't. I started KO with RtK under my belt, some very basic grammar, and essentially zero vocabulary. While I'm not extremely far into it, it's not as bad as some make it sound, unless it gets worse and worse and you get further. A lot of the sentences really are pretty basic so far. Yeah, they do put some long sentences in with 7 kanji you haven't seen yet and 4 new vocabulary words. I just make do and learn it. I don't mind the steep curve. Personally, to be fair, these more difficult sentences really have only popped up every 10-20 sentences or so... most are basic one-line sentences using vocab that's already been introduced. As a plus, the grammar is rather basic if you haven't done a whole ton of grammar yet.

Also, I'll probably get flamed for it, but I used the same method you did for vocab (and still do): using the heisig keywords to remember the kanji. I write all my vocab words when doing reviews, so it really helps. As for it making you not remember readings, I disagree. Maybe we're all different, but I've used the keyword method for new kanji I haven't seen in any new words yet. EX: I see 電話 (having never seen 電 in another word before) and use "electricity" + "talk" to remember the kanji. At first I can't remember it by readings alone. But after seeing 電源、電気、電気代、電池、 etc. in other recent KO sentences and native material I don't even think of the keyword "electricity" anymore when encountering a new word. I automatically remember でん and know the kanji immediately (any less-used readings for the kanji I usually remember without much issue as well). It's been this way for every kanji so far and I still "learn" vocab words and kanji readings this way initially. Maybe it doesn't work for everyone, but again, we're all different.

meredithcat Wrote:What method have you used for vocab words? What do you think works the best?

I memorize the pronunciation of a word separately from the written form, and add the new words to anki, deleting them after a few months. I do enough reading so the yomi take care of themselves, because I typically see characters frequently and in several different words. I believe the most efficient way to learn vocabulary is to do no big out-of-context crusades other than RTK1. I'm against:
1) making stories with keywords
2) memorizing lists of sentences
Just read things at your level, memorizing the new words as you encounter them, and you'll be the best off. It may not feel that way at first, but just read consistently and it will sink in and become clear.

I would just learn it through rote or in the context of a sentence. I.e.
Front: 注意
Back: ちゅう.い - Careful/Cautious

Learning it with weird mnemonics and crutches like we used to learn RTK is a mistake I think. You don't want to have to recall "Be CAREFUL not to POUR out all your IDEAS at once - or you may end up in trouble!" or something silly like that every time you want to write the word, or recall what it means.

I mean, I knew a fair bit of Japanese before RTK, and I never went about it like 日本語 = day+book+word, OK "Japanese WORDS are only written in BOOKS during the DAY". I just learnt that 日本語 = Japanese.

My view is that compounds should just be learnt as separate words rather than as two kanji with two different meanings put together [it often confuses rather than helps], unless it somehow adds to the meaning (which it doesn't in this case, but for something like languages, you could see oh - country + 語 = that country's language).

I personally would just put the word in my SRS, review it a few times and bam, I know it. (That's what the SRS is for, anyway). But I don't really have any problem with learning vocabulary words (after years of rote memorising Latin probably. I mean for French I can hear a word once or twice, and if I see it in a sentence a few times then I'll remember it, same with Japanese).

That's my personal method anyway which works well and is easiest for me, but obviously people learn in different ways blah blah disclaimer disclaimer. [So I don't get shouted at and told OMG YOUR METHOD IS INEFFICIENT LOL]

Edit: One thing I forgot to mention, I would not just learn big lists of vocabulary. I only learn vocabulary that I come across from reading/watching/listening. It sticks far better if you have learnt a vocabulary word in context rather than learning it in isolation. I find it very difficult to remember if I've just picked it off a list than if I've seen someone say it on a TV show or something. Learning from a big list definitely reminds me too much of dull, dull Latin.

Like rich_f mentioned, you can use the Iversen word list method to get words into short term memory+, then use Anki to get them into long term memory. I can usually get 28 words into STM+ (24-48) hours in about 30 minutes.

Recently, I've been doing Kanji in Context and ran into a big problem with too many words not sticking. As a result my reviews/review-time kept growing and growing.

This week I incorporated the Iverson method. I found that this works really well for me. I review in the morning, and enter new sentences 30-40 later in the day, then I make a list of 28 (4*7) words to use with the Iverson method in the evening.

Modified Iverson Method for Japanese:
I use a sheet of college ruled paper w/ 28-31 lines, divide it into 7 columns, and enter the following:

C1 - Kanji
C2 - Kana
C3-4/5-6 - Blank
C7 - English definition

Next, I use any method to remember a cluster of 7 kanji-words as fast a possible, using a combo of mnemonics/keywords/etc. (doesn't matter, because the mnemonic is forgotten in minutes). Once all 7 are in my memory, I fold back C1, and write the kanji-words in C3.

Next, I learn all the kana-words, fold back C2, and write all 7 in C4.

Finally, repeat for the same in C5-C6.

Tefhel Wrote:I would just...

Excellent post Tefhel.

oregum Wrote:you can use the Iversen word list method

You can use Iversen's method, but keep in mind Iversen works his way through a dictionary, learning hundreds of words a day with very little review (I think he just does one review on the following day). No flashcards of any kind. Then he goes straight into reading, which reinforces the intense list-exercise.

I like the way you do it instead. I think studying vocab in lists, grouping the words in small groups (6 for me, 7 for you) before dumping them into anki is a great way to keep your head above water when you feel overwhelmed.

I like 6-word groups instead of 7 because I can memorize 3 words at a time very easily. I memorize the top three, memorize the bottom three, then review all 6 both directions. 7-word groups always feel awkward to me, but to each her own.