If you have already gone through RTK III or are going through it now...

Did you make any modifications to the system you used for RTK I?

* Did you study the meaning and readings/vocab at the same time?
* Did you use alternate / "tweaked" or Japanese keywords?
* Did you stick with Heisig's English keywords and then pick up the Japanese as you come across the kanji when reading?

* Do you have one RTK review stack, or separate stacks for RTK I and III?

*What pace worked well for you -- for both learning and review purposes?

Many kanji may be better learned with a Japanese keyword if you are already familiar with it. For example: "trifle" doesn't speak to me the way that わずか does.

I've done about 160 RTK III kanji so far, and some of the "unique" keywords seem more unnecessary and misleading than their RTK I counterparts did. And Heisig's keywords are often from an archaic meaning even when the kanji is marked "common usage" in a compound using a different meaning. If these are already fairly rare words it doesn't make sense to remember them via an archaic meaning unless absolutely necessary. I also remember astridtops being frustrated by Heisig breaking his own rule of not repeating keywords.

So far, I'm checking all the keyword (meanings) and vocab against other sources. (Like Jim Breen's site.) And I am using alternate keywords where appropriate.
* Anyone else do this? Was it worth the time?

In addition to using alternate keywords, I also use "tweaked-keyword [III]" to differentiate RTK I and III kanji with similar meanings:
幸 happiness
倖 happiness [III] -- instead of "bliss"

Will the risk of confusing these be too great? (I know it would be within RTK I, but does this really apply across both books.) I'm going to review RTK I and III in separate stacks so this should help me to not confuse them.
* Has anyone else tweaked keywords this way and used separate review stacks?
What was your success with keeping such RTK I and III kanji distinct in review?

Currently I'm learning 10 kanji per day, "in whole" -- that is, their meaning, writing, and reading (but I just do a mental note of whether I know it or not, I'll learn it later when I come across it in reading--or maybe after finishing stories for all RTK III kanji).
* What pace did you have success with? And were you studying just the keywords and writing in isolation or the whole shebang?

Any and all experiences, tips and advice would be appreciated before I venture further into the remaining 800 kanji.

Thanks!

Just learning Chinese instead, this should take care of all RTK III kanji and many many many more...

I just went ahead to RTK III after RTK I. I figured there was no point stopping when this site makes it so easy to progress and, well, there are still tons of common kanji not in RTK I (誰, anyone?).

Since Remembering the Kanji is essentially the whole extent of my Japanese studies, I couldn't use Japanese words as keywords simply because I don't know any Japanese words. Consequently, I can't really speak for the legitimacy of his keyword choices. I believe that Heisig repeating keywords was probably unintentional: all of the keywords that are doubled are RTK I keywords that were changed (ex: "observance" was changed to "dedicate" in RTK I 4th Ed.), so it's highly likely that RTK 1 was updated and RTK III was not, as Vol. III isn't as popular as the first one.

One of my major issues is that it is not structured like RTK I in that newer kanji build off older kanji. For example, the primitives for trim (薙, 2353) are flowers and pheasant. However, pheasant (雉, 2584) isn't introduced for over another two hundred frames. You can just learn the characters out of order to overcome this, but that messes up the flashcards, at least on this site.

Since RvtK splits the cards into RTK I and RTK III (well, if you want it to), I generally review them separately, which is great because my recall rate with RTK III kanji is generally crap. I was doing 60 cards a day (granted, I'm only doing keywords: no example words, compounds, readings, etc., and I'm not exactly remembering the brunt of them) up to frame 2705, but I stopped when I just started taking college classes this week.

Thanks for the reply Megaqwerty.

This site definitely makes it very easy to continue on with studying RTK III and it feels like built-in RTK I review -- well at least of the basic bits and pieces so far.

I actually have the first printing (from 1994) of RTK III, so it makes sense to me now that RTK I (the more popular book) would have been updated to get rid of the unintentional duplicate keywords.

Also, thanks for the heads up on the fact that RTK III does not build upon previously studied RTK III kanji. Yikes! Why did Heisig neglect such a basic part of his learning system?

Do any of the RTK III trailblazers on this site happen to have a list of the "out of order" RTK III kanji that Megaqwerty mentions?

I'm also glad to hear that someone else is splitting RTK I and III review. Since I am only learning 10 kanji a day my recall rate is extremely good until the third review...Or maybe (hopefully?) it was just a bad bunch I did today.

Serge, learning Chinese does indeed sound like it will take care of more than enough additional characters.

I have quite a few Cantonese speaking friends and am thinking of studying Cantonese -- which doesn't seem to be as well supported by textbooks, or audio tapes, etc, but which uses traditional characters. Hmm...another huge study project, should I take it on.

Chadokoro_K Wrote:Do any of the RTK III trailblazers on this site happen to have a list of the "out of order" RTK III kanji that Megaqwerty mentions?

Off-hand, there's like three, but I still got three hundred more frames to clear, so there could be more. I'm sorry for making it sound rampant: it really doesn't happen so often. However, as mentioned, RTK I's second greatest strength is its structural order: the fact that RTK III seems to largely ignore this is regrettable (but not very major: around 700 of the new kanji consist of old primitives).

Megaqwerty Wrote:Off-hand, there's like three, but I still got three hundred more frames to clear, so there could be more.

Whew, that's good to know! Thanks.

And good luck on finishing up the final three hundred.

Chadokoro_K Wrote:I have quite a few Cantonese speaking friends and am thinking of studying Cantonese -- which doesn't seem to be as well supported by textbooks, or audio tapes, etc, but which uses traditional characters. Hmm...another huge study project, should I take it on.

You will find traditional characters pretty close to versions used in Japan... Cantonese is considered to be somewhat harder than Mandarin and it doesn't seem to have too many study resources to support it. Yet if you venture into it - good luck!

Chadokoro_K Wrote:Has anyone else tweaked keywords this way

I've done something like this with non-RTK1 kanji, but I use keyword = meaning(unique primitive).

Hi leosmith,

I saw your answer here and your example on the "confused" thread.

leosmith Wrote:I've done something like this with non-RTK1 kanji, but I use keyword = meaning(unique primitive).

In your case, I'd use the keywords
for seduce = tempt(dagger)
for tempt = tempt(license)

It looks like an excellent way to address the kanji with similar meaning. I wish I'd thought about it (or read about it) when I was going through RTK I.

Thanks for the great idea.

Chadokoro_K Wrote:Thanks for the great idea.

You bet. I wish I'd thought about this earlier too, but at least I can use it for new characters. I suggested it to Heisig for RTH, and he said "thanks for the suggestion", which I take as a polite no-go. Oh well. I'll use it for learning Hanzi, and see how it works on a big scale.

Now that i think about it, your method reminds me of the way Japanese people explain which kanji they are talking about when talking on the phone, etc, and can't show the listener. Of course sometimes they just list unambiguous compound words that use the kanji, but other times they talk about the such-and-such word with such-and-such radical (as you probably know, all the radicals have names) so as not to confuse it with a kanji of the same reading or meaning. For example, りっしんベンの「エツ」, the "state of mind" primitive 「エツ」 (ecstasy), or the　さんずいへんの「あたたかい」, the "water" primitive (when it comes as three drops on the left) 「あたたかい」 (warm).

A fine tradition, indeed!

I just went to learn the Kanji from RTK3 when finishing with book1 (even though I don't have it) I cut out 965 flash cards (The number of kanji in RTK3) and then transcribe keyword, kanji and frame number doing about 20 a day.

I apply the same method from RTK1 from Lesson 11. I take notes on each character, which is why you study with pad and pencil. In my review, I read the keyword, going over to the notes I scribed and a photographic image of the kanji comes up in my mind. When I read over the notes I took, I come up with a better image for the kanji or I'll leave as is when I know it is a memorable one.

I found RTK3 very challenging (up to frame 2153) to tap into the imagination. Also, it is also useful for reviewing known characters and at the same time refining the former stuff from the general use list. My stories are basically skeletal plots. It's hard to come up with the details, some are logical than others.

Follow the steps in Lesson 11 from RTK1.

After you learn meaning and writing from RTK3, do you need to go learn anymore Kanji or are you well eqipped to go back and tackle the other side of the Japanese language?

I'm picking up the non-RTK1 kanji (mostly RTK3) as I encounter them in my day to day reading. I'm not trying to get every one at this point, but I write it down and learn it if I've seen it a few times.
For unique plant and animal names (like 鰻 - うなぎ) I use the kun-yomi as the keyword and construct my story in English inserting the Japanese keyword name. In most cases I'm already well familiar with these words anyway.
In other cases, I plan to be faithful to Heisig's keywords.

I'll probably go through the book at some point to clean up the ones I've missed, but I've got too many other side-projects going on right now to systematically go through RTK3.

For those who've been through RTK3, how common is it for you to encounter kanji not found in either RTK1 or RTK3? I'm not talking about in specialized texts but rather in everyday items like newspapers, novels, street signs, etc.

One doesn't come across them much, but they do appear from time to time, nearly always with furigana. Hard to quantify it any clearer than that.

sheetz Wrote:For those who've been through RTK3, how common is it for you to encounter kanji not found in either RTK1 or RTK3? I'm not talking about in specialized texts but rather in everyday items like newspapers, novels, street signs, etc.

My feeling is that novels are the most likely place that one is likely to come across non-RTK kanji.

I've been hitting online news articles pretty hard for the last 2 days and haven't come across any non-RTK kanji yet. Admittedly, most of the texts that I'm reading are more like short summaries.

synewave Wrote:My feeling is that novels are the most likely place that one is likely to come across non-RTK kanji.

I've been hitting online news articles pretty hard for the last 2 days and haven't come across any non-RTK kanji yet. Admittedly, most of the texts that I'm reading are more like short summaries.

Isn't is so that newpapers (and by extension, news websites) stick to the Jouyou set as a matter of policy?

You definitely see a lot more non-RTK kanji in novels, which require creative writing, than in newspapers or government publications. It all depends on the author's preference. For example, Harry Potter uses more kanji than a lot of novels meant for adults.

I posted these stats recently:

Number of kanji needed to read:
95% of a newspaper: 1050
95% of a magazine: 1350
99% of a newspaper: 1700
99% of a magazine: 2200

There was data for other percentages but I only chose these four data points.


Indeed, Harry potter uses non-joyo kanji far more frequently than almost anything else I've ever seen, though furigana is amply provided.
It is possible, though, to misinterpret this a bit. Harry potter uses kanji+furigana for a lot of words that an adult novel would just show in hiragana.

Serge Wrote:Isn't is so that newpapers (and by extension, news websites) stick to the Jouyou set as a matter of policy?

That would be a damn good policy!

Occasionally there do appear to be non-Jouyou kanji on the news site I'm using (cue raise to yorkii). I reckon there is one in this article - http://news.tbs.co.jp/newseye/tbs_newseye3655683.html

synewave Wrote:Occasionally there do appear to be non-Jouyou kanji on the news site I'm using (cue raise to yorkii). I reckon there is one in this article - http://news.tbs.co.jp/newseye/tbs_newseye3655683.html

I count two.

JimmySeal Wrote:I count two.

Damn you JimmySeal

Here's the article:

ブッシュ大統領はホワイトハウスで黙祷

５年目の去年はニューヨークなど全ての事件現場を訪問したブッシュ大統領は、今年はホワイトハウスで黙祷を捧げました。

　また、ハイジャック機が突っ込んだ国防総省では、ゲーツ国防長官らが出席し追悼式典が行われました。さらに、ペンシルバニア州では、乗客がテロリストと格闘して墜落したユナイテッド航空機の犠牲者らを悼む式典も開かれました。（12日01:59）

synewave Wrote:

JimmySeal Wrote:I count two.

Here's the article:

ブッシュ大統領はホワイトハウスで黙祷

５年目の去年はニューヨークなど全ての事件現場を訪問したブッシュ大統領は、今年はホワイトハウスで黙祷を捧げました。

　また、ハイジャック機が突っ込んだ国防総省では、ゲーツ国防長官らが出席し追悼式典が行われました。さらに、ペンシルバニア州では、乗客がテロリストと格闘して墜落したユナイテッド航空機の犠牲者らを悼む式典も開かれました。（12日01:59）

If that's the article, then I count two as well. Or three if you include two beside the "silence" kanji. What is it about??

It's talking about memorial services that took place to remember people who died on the 11th of September 2001 in the US. Apparently Bush spent a moment in silent prayer at the White House.