I've always thought it was just baka gaijins (hahaha just kidding), but why is it whenever I see "ん" romanized into romaji, I see it changed to "m" sometimes, and "n" other times?

Mainly when it is in the middle of the world.

For isntance

天ぷら
Tempura

新聞
shimbun

がんばって
gambatte

Is it just baka gaijins? Or are you supposed to actually say it with an 'm' sound?

"p" and "b" are labials, which means that you pronounce them with your lips. "m" is also a labial. So there's a tendency with p+n and b+n combinations for the n to turn into a labial -- m.

It's not 100% an "m" sound, but ん at the end of the word is also not 100% an "n" sound. But yeah, you do kind of pronounce it more with your lips.

Yeah, what Fillanzea said about the lips and stuff...

ん isn't a "n" sound. If you're pronouncing 原因 as "genin" and 範囲 as "hani" then you're doing it wrong. It's a different sound that can sound like a bunch of things, and in the case of 天ぷら and 新聞, the "m" sound is better.



Although, I will admit, since ん kind of looks like a lowercase "n" to me, words do look weird when they're romanized. Tempura is OK because it's basically an English word too, but "shimbun" kinda gets me...

In case the other entries weren't clear, Japanese letters don't map directly to English letters. Romanization is an attempt to get it as close as possible.

Translations are the same. Words may be close in meaning between the languages, but they are always a little different. Even the loan words.

zachandhobbes Wrote:Is it just baka gaijins? Or are you supposed to actually say it with an 'm' sound?

I don't think that this is a hard and fast "rule" as such for Japanese, but it just *happens* to physically be the path of least resistance when ん is followed by a sound that involves holding air against the lips for a P or B sound.

No one will bat an eyelash if someone happens to use "n" instead of "m" in a conversation, and most people, if you ask them to enunciate those words slowly and carefully, will revert to an "n" sound.

I'll bet that most mothers ordering a tempura delivery or something over the noise of their kids playing will say it, "ten-pura".

Thanks (everyone).

I tried saying it and I realized that I actually say 'tempura' instead of 'tenpura' (I noticed my mouth closed when I said the "んぷ" part, which is the M sound). I guess it's just one of those language things. Thanks! That helps a lot.

Like people said, yeah, you're automatically saying it like an m. As for the actual romanization though, it depends on the system. In modern hepburn, you should not use m before labials, though you should in traditional.

[Katsuo]

We sometimes do the same kind of thing in English.

E.g. say: "He scored ten points" fairly quickly. Listen closely to yourself, and notice you are probably saying "tempoints".

My god... you're right. LOL!

I've never changed the ん　to an "m" sound :/ but then I also never write in Romaji, once you learn the kana and get used to it it becomes second nature to you. I don't even have to think about the hiragana when I'm writing in Japanese. The Katakana I struggle with a little more but that's because I don't really use it as much. Also they say the one you learn first is the one you know best

Also i've never seen anyone romanise がんばって as "gambatte". Then again, that could just be that I haven't come across it yet.

As long as you know it's supposed to be pronounced as an "m" it doesn't really matter how you write it. I still stand by the opinion that the choice of writing system is not going to help or hurt your pronunciation that much, and that careless use of kana can actually harm your pronunciation.

FlyingScotsman Wrote:I've never changed the ん　to an "m" sound :/ but then I also never write in Romaji, once you learn the kana and get used to it it becomes second nature to you. I don't even have to think about the hiragana when I'm writing in Japanese. The Katakana I struggle with a little more but that's because I don't really use it as much. Also they say the one you learn first is the one you know best

Also i've never seen anyone romanise がんばって as "gambatte". Then again, that could just be that I haven't come across it yet.

i don't like romaji, kana is the way to go. I agree hiragana is the one i know best, b/c that's the one i learned first.