http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1837

"Jacksonian Democrats blamed the banks' irresponsibility, both in funding rampant speculation and by introducing paper money inflation."

Interesting...

Do we study history to learn from our mistakes or do we simply study to learn "of" them?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania

older

Our economic system is certainly due for an overhaul, capitalism is long past its expiration date.

kazelee Wrote:Do we study history to learn from our mistakes or do we simply study to learn "of" them?

Exactly my thoughts when I read this. It has been more than 30 years but this book is still up to date.

thecite Wrote:Our economic system is certainly due for an overhaul, capitalism is long past its expiration date.

uh oh ... brace yourselves guys! I sense a big impending "You WILL Convert to Communism if Your Little Brain is Capable of Logic" Lecture ... ;-)

Thora Wrote:

thecite Wrote:Our economic system is certainly due for an overhaul, capitalism is long past its expiration date.

uh oh ... brace yourselves guys! I sense a big impending "You WILL Convert to Communism if Your Little Brain is Capable of Logic" Lecture ... ;-)

Why does everyone jump to the conclusion of communism when someone raises the fact that capitalism sucks?

For the record, I actually think a technocratic society would be the way forward for mankind.

because our brains are little? (and b/c I was left with the distinct impression you like false dichotomies and unoriginal thought)

thecite Wrote:For the record, I actually think a technocratic society would be the way forward for mankind.

How does this technocratic society work? Or more specifically, how does it work without capitalism?

thecite Wrote:For the record, I actually think a technocratic society would be the way forward for mankind.

Sounds interesting. I think I'd like to live in this brave new technocratic world.

lagwagon555 Wrote:

thecite Wrote:For the record, I actually think a technocratic society would be the way forward for mankind.

How does this technocratic society work? Or more specifically, how does it work without capitalism?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy
If you google 'technocracy' you'll find quite a lot of info.

Generally, technocracy is founded upon the concept that most of the world's problems are technical, and therefore scientists and engineers should be the ones directing society, rather than politicians. There is no centralised power like in today's democracies; technology is used to identify and solve problems, rather than the mere opinion and laws of politicians. Technocracy proposes an abolition to monetary systems, and instead proposes a 'resource-based economy', in which technology is used to accurately measure the world's available resources, and thereby we are able to sustainably distribute them equally among the population.

Well, I'm pretty bad at explaining it, so search around a bit.

'The Venus Project' (http://www.thevenusproject.com/) proposes pretty much the same idea, which I really like, but I don't like the conspiracy-theory based 'Zeitgeist Movement' which it has ubiquitously become associated with.

Haha, I have some friends who follow that Venus Project thing, they even went to a few seminars or something a few months ago. They aren't economics students

lagwagon555 Wrote:Haha, I have some friends who follow that Venus Project thing, they even went to a few seminars or something a few months ago. They aren't economics students

I am an economics student (at a high school, final year level). Economics generally isn't taught with the aim of opening students' minds to other economic systems. It's pretty much: "Capitalism is the best, end of story." Although I think this is gradually beginning to change.

thecite Wrote:Technocracy proposes an abolition to monetary systems, and instead proposes a 'resource-based economy', in which technology is used to accurately measure the world's available resources, and thereby we are able to sustainably distribute them equally among the population.

Technocracy: By the Crazy, For the Lazy

[old joke, sorry]

iSoron Wrote:

thecite Wrote:Technocracy proposes an abolition to monetary systems, and instead proposes a 'resource-based economy', in which technology is used to accurately measure the world's available resources, and thereby we are able to sustainably distribute them equally among the population.

Technocracy: By the Crazy, For the Lazy

[old joke, sorry]

Well that is a main objection to economic systems such as this, the old idea set forth in Smith's 'Wealth of Nations' that money is the be-all-end-all of incentives for man.
This idea seems completely stupid to me. All of us here learning Japanese of our own accord obviously aren't motivated by monetary gain, we're doing so because we enjoy it and wish to learn. When you take money away, other incentives turn up. Most scientists do what they do because they enjoy it and wish to contribute to the field (or perhaps gain a name for themselves), not because they want some quick cash. Money certainly doesn't motivate me very much.

If you take away the need to work for a wage, you'll find that people actually use their extra free time constructively as much as they waste it.

thecite Wrote:

iSoron Wrote:

thecite Wrote:Technocracy proposes an abolition to monetary systems, and instead proposes a 'resource-based economy', in which technology is used to accurately measure the world's available resources, and thereby we are able to sustainably distribute them equally among the population.

Technocracy: By the Crazy, For the Lazy

[old joke, sorry]

Well that is a main objection to economic systems such as this, the old idea set forth in Smith's 'Wealth of Nations' that money is the be-all-end-all of incentives for man.
This idea seems completely stupid to me. All of us here learning Japanese of our own accord obviously aren't motivated by monetary gain, we're doing so because we enjoy it and wish to learn. When you take money away, other incentives turn up. Most scientists do what they do because they enjoy it and wish to contribute to the field (or perhaps gain a name for themselves), not because they want some quick cash. Money certainly doesn't motivate me very much.

If you take away the need to work for a wage, you'll find that people actually use their extra free time constructively as much as they waste it.

There's a difference between being a scientist/studying japanese, and cleaning toilets. Somethings you can do without money as an incentive, others definitely not.

@Tobbertoth

Undesirable tasks such as that are exactly the kind of thing that could easily be solved by technology. Most of the jobs we have today would either vanish without the need for money, or could be replaced by technology.

Invent an economical self cleaning toilet and you're a billionaire. For the time being, we need bog scrubbers.

But you certainly haven't read The Wealth of Nations (or Theory of Moral Sentiments) if you think Smith was talking about money being the object of every mans actions. It's his self interest and hapiness, a big difference.

thecite Wrote:Most of the jobs we have today would either vanish without the need for money, or could be replaced by technology.

So you're proposing we become pets of robots?
What could possibly go wrong?

[blatant strawman, sorry]

lagwagon555 Wrote:Invent an economical self cleaning toilet and you're a billionaire. For the time being, we need bog scrubbers.

But you certainly haven't read The Wealth of Nations (or Theory of Moral Sentiments) if you think Smith was talking about money being the object of every mans actions. It's his self interest and hapiness, a big difference.

Remember, we're talking about a money-less economy here. If people wanted a self-cleaning toilet, and the necessary resources were available, they would get it. I didn't say money was man's reasons for living, just that it's supposedly the main incentive in promoting work and productivity.

iSoron Wrote:

thecite Wrote:Most of the jobs we have today would either vanish without the need for money, or could be replaced by technology.

So you're proposing we become pets of robots?
What could possibly go wrong?

[blatant strawman, sorry]

This isn't a terminator movie, robots aren't going to rise up and take control of the world. You already put your life in the hands of robots in so many aspects of your life, the idea that computers and technology be used to effectively manage society is only a logical extension of this.

On the contrary, technology liberates people. It frees people from having to perform unnecessary tasks, and gives us more free time to do and learn the things we really wish to.

It's not like if we went over to techocracy, technology far beyond what we have now would be available. And it's not like it would be a money-less economy, it's not like every country in the world would instantly go over to it, money would still be needed to buy resources from other countries, so there would still be a price to pay. Those self-cleaning toilets would just be invented then created in the millions out of thin air.

Tobberoth Wrote:It's not like if we went over to techocracy, technology far beyond what we have now would be available. And it's not like it would be a money-less economy, it's not like every country in the world would instantly go over to it, money would still be needed to buy resources from other countries, so there would still be a price to pay. Those self-cleaning toilets would just be invented then created in the millions out of thin air.

Various types of self-cleaning toilets have in fact already been invented and are on the market. No, new technology wouldn't magically spring from nowhere. But just imagine all of the world's scientists and engineers working towards technology that benefits mankind. At the moment, most scientists are employed in defence forces or companies where their skills go to waste. In a technocratic society, most people would pursue scientific and engineering jobs, as that will be what is needed most.

Obviously it wouldn't be an instantaneous transition, there would be thousands of transitional steps.
The Venus Project's current aim is to gain funding to build a test city, so people can get an idea of what a society like this would be like.

thecite Wrote:The Venus Project's current aim is to gain funding to build a test city, so people can get an idea of what a society like this would be like.

Who'll be allowed to live there?
First come, first served?

thecite Wrote:most people would pursue scientific and engineering jobs, as that will be what is needed most

I though people would do what they liked most?

iSoron Wrote:

thecite Wrote:The Venus Project's current aim is to gain funding to build a test city, so people can get an idea of what a society like this would be like.

Who'll be allowed to live there?
First come, first served?

thecite Wrote:most people would pursue scientific and engineering jobs, as that will be what is needed most

I though people would do what they liked most?

I think it's a model, they intend to use it as a base for all of their subsequent operations. I don't know if anyone will be living there. If they did, I assume they'd try and attract engineers and people who had something to add.

People will have a lot more spare time to do whatever they want, but obviously there are going to be a lot of jobs which have no use in society.

The problem with technocracy/communism/fascism and doing away with the monetary system is that you're essentially promoting a massive government that decides what you ought to be doing, and how the resources should be used, which ultimately makes the individual less free. The way to utopia is in small government and giving power to individuals.
What Jacque Fresco (venus project guy) ought to do, is demonstrate to the world that he can live sustainably with complete independence from the outside world. If that demonstrably provides a higher quality of life than people will follow.