Jarvik7 Wrote:It's pretty easy for me to tell Koreans and Chinese from Japanese people just by their fashion and behavior, unless they are second generation etc.

Same here. I've mistaken hearing Japanese with hearing Korean but rarely if ever mistaken a Japanese person for a Korean one.

I hope you have more stories to tell, Groot!

I have two somewhat embarrssing stories... both from my first (and so far only) trip to Japan.

I was sitting on a barrier at the side of 仲見世通り looking through my wallet, checking how much yen I had left, and this old lady approached and said something like (my Japanese wasn't so hot back then) "it must be nice to have so much money!". I didn't want to get into conversation because I was sure I wouldn't be up to it, so I said "日本語が分かりません" or something like that. She was then like, "留学していますか？", to which I replied no (can't remember exactly what I said), and that was the end of the conversation.

The second was when I'd arrived late to the Tokyo Stock Exchange tour, and I wanted to ask if I could join the tour late in Japanese, and I made some attempt at this but I totally didn't understand what the woman said in response. I repeated one random word she'd said in an inquiring tone, prompting her to say a whole bunch of other stuff I didn't understand. I mustered a "分かりません・・・", after which she spoke to me in English.

I wish I had the ability to just talk to random people. I occasionally overhear Japanese being spoken in London, but I never do anything.

I've definitely been there.

A couple of thoughts...

A lot of Japanese who are good at English probably don't like being addressed in Japanese in Hawaii- they feel like after all that study they should be competent to transact in English and feel like their skills are disrespected if they are spoken to in Japanese. This situation is completely the same as non-Japanese in Japan who complain that Japanese people speak English to them, often they think its disrespect or even racism, but I'm convinced that 95% of the time its just wanting to practice or, in the case of employees, their job description requires them to deal with people in English. The best way to deal with this is, like you did, say as soon as possible I am studying Japanese, is it ok to practice ect... then ask about their English skills and speak with them in English some later.

The kid who ignored your ohayougozaimasu is probably just a Tokyo brat, but are you sure of your pronunciation? That phrase seems like something that any Japanese person would almost reflexively respond to in kind, or at least with an English good morning if they understood it.

Another thing to keep in mind is that (at least from my experience in Tokyo) ohayougozaimasu is never something you use to address someone you don't already know- its not something you say to strike up a conversation. Rather I would expect a Japanese person to start off with a sumimasen, or etoo... and some polite body language, bowing, looking apologetic for interrupting you ect. I have found that if you want to have a conversation in Japanese starting off with the correct posture and body language is more important than what you say. You can speak 100% correct Japanese, but if its in a non-Japanese way, your partner may switch to English.

Yeah, I think nine times out of ten people probably just want to go about their business and aren't interested in providing language practice, either.

greatfool Wrote:A lot of Japanese who are good at English probably don't like being addressed in Japanese in Hawaii- they feel like after all that study they should be competent to transact in English and feel like their skills are disrespected if they are spoken to in Japanese. This situation is completely the same as non-Japanese in Japan who complain that Japanese people speak English to them, often they think its disrespect or even racism, but I'm convinced that 95% of the time its just wanting to practice or, in the case of employees, their job description requires them to deal with people in English.

I don't really think it's the same at all. In Japan people assume you don't speak Japanese and that's why they don't use Japanese with you--it takes some time to convince people that you can actually handle Japanese.

In the situation in Hawaii, everyone assumes that a given person can speak English, so that's obviously not the motivation behind using Japanese with someone.

The underlying idea in Japan is that Japanese people speak Japanese, and that white people and similarly obvious gaikokujin cannot. It's because most people in Japan don't think of Japaneseness as seperated into nationality, culture, and race; it's all seen as being the same thing. So if someone who is not Japanese by race has acquired some aspects of Japanese culture (language, way of acting, etc), people are surprised since usually nationality, culture, and race usually go together when it comes to Japaneseness.

American-ness, on the other hand, is usually thought of in terms of nationality and culture (race also plays something of a role)--and culture, nationality, and race are thought of as different things in America. (Similarly to how people distinguish between Jewish culture, religious Jewishness, and the Jews as a people).

I don't think that the way gaikokujin are treated in Japan when it comes to language is racist; but I think it's certainly a different thing than what may happen to a Japanese in Hawaii, and you could certainly make a better case for it being racist if you were so inclined.

Well said Tzadeck - I think that's an interesting point you make about 日本人 perspective on race, culture, and nationality.

That's awfully patronizing of you, going up to every Asian and spouting off Japanese like they're a bunch of fresh-off-the-boaters.

Save the Japanese for when you're actually in Japan.

Gee, I wasn't trying to be patronizing or to imply that the visitors couldn't speak English; I made it clear as quickly as I could that I just wanted to practice my Japanese. With the exception of the kid in the omelette line, every other person I chatted with seemed happy (or greatly amused) that I was trying. Perhaps I should have always started in English? Toward the end of the vacation I did start out in English, and people still seemed happy to chat with me in Japanese as well. I dunno, it's Hawaii, and everyone's in a good mood.

After the trip, we stopped in San Francisco, and I spent a couple hours in Japantown. Here I chatted with surprising success with a couple of shopkeepers; they seemed disappointed when my Japanese faltered and I had to switch to English.

I don't know when I'll next get to visit Japan -- it'll be a year at minimum, maybe longer. With Japanese folks all around me in Hawaii, it seemed like a nice opportunity to practice, as I have no one to practice with here at home. I sure didn't mean to offend anyone. Perhaps next time I will always begin conversations in English and ask if I can practice Japanese.

ocircle Wrote:That's awfully patronizing of you, going up to every Asian and spouting off Japanese like they're a bunch of fresh-off-the-boaters.

Save the Japanese for when you're actually in Japan.

I guess you've never been to Hawaii, because it is seriously packed with tourists, especially in summer. Honestly he'll have less luck finding an Asian-American.

Did your hotel have dual checkin counters ? One for Japanese and one for english. The last time I was in Maui they had that.

Think next time I'm there I'll use the Japanese checkin desk

Another fun thing to do is when you fly to Japan don't go direct but go thru Hawaii. The last time on a Hawaii to Japan flight I was the only gaijin. Thought it was pretty fun. Had a different vibe than the usual US mainland -> japan flights.

Isn't Ocircle of Korean descent? I'm Chinese-American and I'd probably be annoyed if I went to Hawaii and people assumed I was a Japanese tourist without even bothering to ask if I was Japanese.

sheetz Wrote:Isn't Ocircle of Korean descent? I'm Chinese-American and I'd probably be annoyed if I went to Hawaii and people assumed I was a Japanese tourist without even bothering to ask if I was Japanese.

That's the first thing he asked them...
also

quincy Wrote:

sheetz Wrote:Isn't Ocircle of Korean descent? I'm Chinese-American and I'd probably be annoyed if I went to Hawaii and people assumed I was a Japanese tourist without even bothering to ask if I was Japanese.

That's the first thing he asked them...

Maybe you should read the OP one more time.

Quote:Day four. I’m at lunch, and my lunch partners scoot, leaving me alone. At the next table, two middle-aged Asian women are chatting and laughing, and I’m convinced I hear them speaking Japanese. One pauses and looks over at me and smiles. My big chance!

Me: こんにちわ！
Friendly lunching tourist (smiling politely): What’s that?
Me: Erm, I said hello in Japanese. Where are you from?
Friendly lunching tourist: Korea.

Hey, go ahead and dismiss what I have to say. But if the OP is smart, he'll make 100% sure that the people he addresses in Japanese are actually Japanese.

sheetz Wrote:Hey, go ahead and dismiss what I have to say. But if the OP is smart, he'll make 100% sure that the people he addresses in Japanese are actually Japanese.

Or what? He'll hurt their feelings? Honestly anyone so uptight to freak out over someone speaking Japanese to them isn't worth the time.

Well, if finding a conversation partner is more important than possibly annoying the occasional person then go ahead and dismiss what I have to say.

Tzadeck Wrote:The underlying idea in Japan is that Japanese people speak Japanese, and that white people and similarly obvious gaikokujin cannot. It's because most people in Japan don't think of Japaneseness as seperated into nationality, culture, and race; it's all seen as being the same thing. So if someone who is not Japanese by race has acquired some aspects of Japanese culture (language, way of acting, etc), people are surprised since usually nationality, culture, and race usually go together when it comes to Japaneseness.

Agree with you in theory, and I think that this was more the case maybe 10-20 years ago, but where I lived in central Tokyo there is very little of the surprised acting sugoi! nihongo jyouzu stuff anymore. There are so many examples of foreigners in the media and around Tokyo who speak competent Japanese and are obviously acclimated to Japanese customs that its not surprising anymore to many people.

Sheetz, I do think you have a point. I was pretty chagrined by the episode with the smiling Korean women, even though they were amused by it, and after that I was more circumspect. In the next encounter, for example, I chatted with the Japanese mom in English briefly before switching to Japanese -- as I said in the OP, she genuinely seemed interested in helping me practice a bit. In the encounter after that, I didn't say anything at all -- I just brandished my Japanese newspaper and hoped the guy would notice it. (He didn't notice, or he didn't care.) In the last case, I asked the same question everyone in the pool asks, in English -- "where are you from?" At this hotel, at least, the pool is very chatty. Everyone is from somewhere else, and everyone is in a cheerful mood, this being Hawaii and all.

Anyway, I do think one has to be sensitive in such situations. I've been mistaken for all sorts of nationalities when I travel abroad, and while it has always amused me, I could imagine someone reasonably being put off by it.

sheetz Wrote:Isn't Ocircle of Korean descent? I'm Chinese-American and I'd probably be annoyed if I went to Hawaii and people assumed I was a Japanese tourist without even bothering to ask if I was Japanese.

I'm standing by ocircle and sheetz on this one. Asian people hate it when you misguess their race, especially Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans (the reasons are too numerous to explain here).

In addition, Asian Americans generally dislike it when they are mistaken as FOBs (foreigners). I know, it's happened to me. Just two weeks ago, some American guy didn't get the hint that I'm American. This was after I told him I was born in California and English is my first language.

It's definitely a sensitive issue for some people. You can ruin a first impression by mistaking someone's race.

greatfool Wrote:Agree with you in theory, and I think that this was more the case maybe 10-20 years ago, but where I lived in central Tokyo there is very little of the surprised acting sugoi! nihongo jyouzu stuff anymore. There are so many examples of foreigners in the media and around Tokyo who speak competent Japanese and are obviously acclimated to Japanese customs that its not surprising anymore to many people.

Of course, the extent to which this is true varies by age and location. It's just like how, in America, many people in a place like New York City have a more nuanced understanding of this type of thing than people living in areas where the vast majority of people are white and Christian. I'm sure the same could be said of Tokyo, as well as cities like Kobe and Osaka.

Certainly enough of the Japanese population does not distinguish between nationality, culture, and race that it's noticeable.

vileru Wrote:Asian people hate it when you misguess their race, especially Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans (the reasons are too numerous to explain here).

I personally don't care *at all* what race people think I am. I'm Japanese, sort of (issei), but Chinese and Koreans are just as wonderful people, and heck, I have trouble telling us apart!

The funniest time someone mistook me for another race was when I went to a diversity seminar in high school, and the Native American speaker asked me what tribe I was from! I laughed, but I certainly wasn't insulted - imagine how neat it would be to have native American ancenstry!

So all in all, I'm not easily insulted, but I don't think I'd want to be accosted by a Japanese practicer, especially while on vacation.

Mushi Wrote:I don't think I'd want to be accosted by a Japanese practicer, especially while on vacation.

Yeah this was definitely my feeling from reading the OP, too. I just felt really sorry for the Japanese people because I know how annoying it can be when strangers come up to me out of nowhere when all I'm doing is minding my own business going about my day trying to practice English and not really having anything to say. Communication is supposed to be a mutually beneficial thing and I don't see how nihongo benkyoushimasu is beneficial to the other person. I'd say unless you have a reason that you need to tell them something just leave them alone. But maybe I'm just a Grumpy Gus because I've been asked the same five questions ( Where are you from? Why did you come to Japan?Can you speak Japanese? What's your favorite Japanese food? Can you eat sushi/natto?) in the same exact order so many times that I'm ready to pull my hair out.

@IceCream

I agree with your reasons as to why people shouldn't be bothered when they're mistaken for another race. Perhaps there are legitimate reasons to be frustrated, but I'm not particularly interested in discussing those. The heart of the matter is that people are offended by being mislabeled. We can talk about how they shouldn't, but that won't change the reality.

In general, I think most Asian people are too polite to directly show their discomfort, and they'll just smile, nod their heads, and say, "Well, actually, I'm... " However, such a situation would probably leave them with a bad impression.

If my advice comes off as hostile, then please don't see it that way. I offer it out of genuine concern. I think many users on this forum are looking for advice on how to approach social situations. This is especially important considering the level of detail that is scrutinized in many social situations. Even how you hold your chopsticks or pour a tea kettle is governed by strict rules. Sure, knowing these things isn't necessary, but it definitely shows respect for culture, and is ultimately one step closer to being accepted.

@Mushi

Me too. I hardly care at all what race people think I am. Not all Asian people act the way I described, and we're both proof of that. However, those trying to penetrate cultural barriers don't need to worry about people like you or me. They have to worry about the people whom they might possibly offend. Thanks for making it clear that not everyone thinks in the same way, though.

vileru Wrote:The heart of the matter is that people are offended by being mislabeled. We can talk about how they shouldn't, but that won't change the reality.

I completely agree with this statement. It's unfortunate that (most? some?) people are bothered by this.

As for the OP, nice

I'm with Ice Cream, seems like 3 related, but separate issues:
- mis-identifying someone's ethnic background
- assuming ethnically asian people aren't americans
- wanting to practice language with foreigners

Groot, your story telling was amusing - thanks. I especially liked the bluntness of the (probably American?) kid who said "What??". In a sense, a big part of your self deprecating humour is based on an admission that your assumptions based on appearance weren't correct. And isn't that the point others are wanting to emphasize?

Groot strikes me as well-intentioned. He (?) took into account the greater likelihood that people at a tourist hotel might be foreigners and how receptive they were to speaking with him. There are no absolute rules - at some point we need to trust our intuition about people and the particular situation.

It's an interesting topic. I can empathize with ocircle, sheetz, mushi, vileru and thistime. But perhaps it could be discussed more in the abstract rather than making it specifically about Groot's story? I feel there are better examples of people who just don't get it.

(Quincy, for eg. ) hehe